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Henry Zyndorf and Sylvia Zyndorf oral history interview

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Material Information

Title:
Henry Zyndorf and Sylvia Zyndorf oral history interview
Series Title:
Holocaust survivors oral history project
Uniform Title:
Holocaust & genocide studies oral history projects
Physical Description:
1 sound file (154 min.) : digital, MPEG4 file + ;
Language:
English
Creator:
Zyndorf, Henry, 1925-
Ellis, Carolyn, 1950-
Patti, Chris J., 1982-
Florida Holocaust Museum
University of South Florida Libraries -- Holocaust & Genocide Studies Center
University of South Florida -- Library. -- Special & Digital Collections. -- Oral History Program
Publisher:
University of South Florida Tampa Library
Place of Publication:
Tampa, Fla
Publication Date:

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Concentration camps -- Poland   ( lcsh )
Concentration camps -- Germany   ( lcsh )
Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) -- Personal narratives -- Poland   ( lcsh )
Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) -- Personal narratives   ( lcsh )
World War, 1939-1945 -- Refugees   ( lcsh )
Holocaust survivors -- Florida   ( lcsh )
Holocaust survivors -- Interviews   ( lcsh )
Genocide   ( lcsh )
Crimes against humanity   ( lcsh )
Genre:
Oral history   ( local )
Online audio   ( local )
Oral history.   ( local )
Online audio.   ( local )
interview   ( marcgt )

Notes

Summary:
Oral history interview with Holocaust survivors Henry Zyndorf and Sylvia Zyndorf. Mr. Zyndorf was born in Poland in 1925. His parents owned a bakery in a town very close to the German border. In 1942 he was taken to the first of three labor camps. In 1945, after a nine-week death march, he arrived at Buchenwald, ten days before it was liberated. Mrs. Zyndorf was born in Poland in 1930. Her parents owned a grocery store in Bodzanow. In 1941 her family was deported first to the Soldau concentration camp, then to the Czestochowa ghetto in 1942, and eventually to the HASAG concentration camp in Czestochowa, where she was liberated by the Soviets in 1945. After being liberated, Mr. and Mrs. Zyndorf were both at a displaced persons camp near Bamberg, Germany, where they met and got married. They came to the United States in 1949, eventually settling in Toledo, where they owned a bakery. In 1982 they moved to Tampa, where they started another bakery. The first section of this interview is with Mr. Zyndorf, the second with Mrs. Zyndorf, and the third with the two of them together.
Venue:
Interview conducted October 29, 2010.
Statement of Responsibility:
interviewed by Christopher Patti and Carolyn Ellis.

Record Information

Source Institution:
University of South Florida Library
Holding Location:
University of South Florida
Rights Management:
All applicable rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier:
aleph - 028782050
oclc - 731176915
usfldc doi - F60-00044
usfldc handle - f60.44
System ID:
SFS0022009:00001


This item is only available as the following downloads:


Full Text
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Oral history interview with Holocaust survivors Henry Zyndorf and Sylvia Zyndorf. Mr. Zyndorf was born in Poland in 1925. His parents owned a bakery in a town very close to the German border. In 1942 he was taken to the first of three labor camps. In 1945, after a nine-week death march, he arrived at Buchenwald, ten days before it was liberated. Mrs. Zyndorf was born in Poland in 1930. Her parents owned a grocery store in Bodzanow. In 1941 her family was deported first to the Soldau concentration camp, then to the Czestochowa ghetto in 1942, and eventually to the HASAG concentration camp in Czestochowa, where she was liberated by the Soviets in 1945. After being liberated, Mr. and Mrs. Zyndorf were both at a displaced persons camp near Bamberg, Germany, where they met and got married. They came to the United States in 1949, eventually settling in Toledo, where they owned a bakery. In 1982 they moved to Tampa, where they started another bakery. The first section of this interview is with Mr. Zyndorf, the second with Mrs. Zyndorf, and the third with the two of them together.
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PAGE 1

COPYRIGHT NOTICE This Oral History is copyrighted by the University of South Florida Libraries Oral History Program on behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of South Florida. Copyright, 201, University of South Florida. All rights, reserved. This oral history may be used for research, instruction, and private study under the provisions of the Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of the United States Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section 107), which allows limited use of copyrighted materials under certain conditions. Fair Use limits the amount of material that may be used. For all other permissions and requests, contact the UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA LIBRARIES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at the University of South Florida, 4202 E. Fowler Avenue, LIB 122, Tampa, FL 33620.


xml version 1.0 encoding UTF-8 transcript
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time 00:00:0.0
text Christopher Patti: Okay, todays date is October 29, 2010.  Were interviewing survivor Henry Zyndorf.  My name is Chris Patti.  Were in Lutz, Florida, in the United States of America.  The language is English, and the videographers are Nafa Faalogo and Richard Schmidt.
1
00:00:18.4
Okay, Mr. Zyndorf, thank you so much for your time today, and well just start off with the easy questions.  Can you tell me your name at birth, and can you spell it for me?
2
00:00:29.2
Henry Zyndorf: Henrik.
3
00:00:30.8
CP: And how do you spell that?
4
00:00:32.7
HZ: H-e-n-r-i-k.
5
00:00:40.3
CP: All right. And what was your date of birth?
6
00:00:43.6
HZ: December 25, 1925.
7
00:00:47.0
CP: Okay, and that makes your current age eighty-five, is that correct?
8
00:00:49.7
HZ: Eighty-five is going to be in December.
9
00:00:52.4
CP: In December youll be eighty-five.
10
00:00:53.4
HZ: Yes.
11
00:00:53.9
CP: Okay, thank you.  And where was your place of birth?
12
00:00:56.7
HZ: Sosnowiec, Poland.
13
00:00:59.1
CP: And is that S-o-s-n-o-w-i-e-c?
14
00:01:3.5
HZ: Right.
15
00:01:4.3
CP: Okay.  Can you tell me a little bit about your parents?
16
00:01:9.0
HZ: My parents, we had a bakery and we made a good living.  We had some people working for us: we had at minimum like ten people working.
17
00:01:22.1
CP: And what was your fathers name?
18
00:01:23.6
HZ: Israel.
19
00:01:25.4
CP: Did he go by Sal as well?
20
00:01:28.8
HZ: Israel.  My son, his name is Sal, but its Israel.
21
00:01:33.2
CP: Okay, and what was your mothers name?
22
00:01:36.2
HZ: Sara.
23
00:01:38.5
CP: And you had a sister and a brother, too; can you give me their names?
24
00:01:44.0
HZ: Yeah, my sister was Rivka Leah, and my brother was Alter Chil.
25
00:01:51.2
CP: And is that A-l-t-e-r C-h-i-l?
26
00:01:54.6
HZ: Yes, right.
27
00:01:55.7
CP: Okay.  Can you tell me a little bit more about your family growing up, about, you know, who your father was and who your mother was and how they were?
28
00:02:5.7
HZ: My father was busy in the bakery and my mother worked in the store in the bakery.
29
00:02:12.9
CP: Do you rememberhow was your childhood growing up?  When you were young, were thingsdid you have a happy childhood?
30
00:02:20.7
HZ: Everything was okay till thirty-nine [1939].
31
00:02:22.6
CP: Till thirty-nine [1939].
32
00:02:23.4
HZ: Everything started in thirty-nine [1939], when they start the advertising, thats Jewish business and Jewish this.  Not to come, not to buy from Jews and not do this.  Was a lot of anti-Semitism.
33
00:02:41.3
CP: The anti-Semitism and boycotts and
34
00:02:43.6
HZ: Oh, yeah, in Poland.
35
00:02:45.0
CP: And you said that your town was the closest to Germany, is that right?
36
00:02:49.5
HZ: Right!
37
00:02:50.1
CP: Five kilometers?
38
00:02:50.6
HZ: Right, Germany was only about five kilometers away.
39
00:02:52.9
CP: And so when the Germans came, they came into your town.
40
00:02:56.1
HZ: Right away, by us.  We were the first ones.
41
00:02:58.3
CP: Were you
42
00:02:59.6
HZ: It was on a Friday.  It waswhat is it, September.  The war started the first, the first of September, and they were there.  And the whole army came in the town, the German army, and there was no resistance to the Germans.
43
00:03:23.3
CP: Was there no resistance because they were caught unaware?
44
00:03:27.7
HZ: No, they were aware, but they were talking big but they didnt do a thing.  They were just running away.  Because we had people what they were (inaudible), they used to work for us, and on Sunday they came through, back.  They said, We havent got time to go and do anything, just keep on running away from the Germans.
45
00:03:50.2
CP: And so you were about fourteen years old, is that right, when that happened?
46
00:03:53.9
HZ: That happened in thirty-nine [1939].
47
00:03:56.2
CP: So
48
00:03:57.0
HZ: Fourteen years old.
49
00:03:58.6
CP: Do you remember what you were thinking at that age?  Were you scared?
50
00:04:1.5
HZ: You couldnt believe it, what had happened right away.  There was no resistance from the Poles.  Because a lot of them, like in our neighborhood around, there were a lot of Poles would sayactually Germans, because they used to live in Germany; theyre like Volksdeutsche.  So everything changed right away.  You couldnt even trust our neighbors.
51
00:04:27.8
CP: And you told me a couple things about when the Germans first came in: you said you saw them making examples of some of the Jews.  Do you remember that story, where you would see people being hung and that sort of thing?
52
00:04:43.8
HZ: Oh, yes.  We had to go out and look where they hung all thosethe Jews with their businesses or something.
53
00:04:53.0
CP: And were they just on the side of street?
54
00:04:57.4
HZ: Right in the middle, on the trees; they hung them right in front.
55
00:05:1.7
CP: At that point, did youwas it worse than you could have even imagined?
56
00:05:8.0
HZ: Oh, we couldnt imagine that much.  And from then on, there was nothing; you couldnt even walk the sidewalks because this wasnt for the Jews.
57
00:05:20.4
CP: You mentioned that the Polish people were often worse than the Germans.
58
00:05:26.4
HZ: Oh, yes.
59
00:05:27.0
CP: Can you tell me a little bit about that?
60
00:05:28.0
HZ: Some of them just became like the Volksdeutsche, like Germannot nationals, but something, and they were worse than the Germans.  We had to watch more for them.
61
00:05:38.5
CP: Why do you think that was?
62
00:05:40.1
HZ: I dont know.  They thought that Germany is going to take over the whole world and theyre going to be with them.  We had our neighbors over there with the sonthey had two sons: one was okay but the other one became right awayhe put on the Hakenkreuz and said, Im a Volksdeutsche.
63
00:06:0.5
CP: So one of your neighbors, there was a good son and a bad son.
64
00:06:3.4
HZ: Good son, thats right.
65
00:06:4.3
CP: And the bad one, immediately he went over to the German side.
66
00:06:6.9
HZ: Right, right, sure.
67
00:06:7.9
CP: Can you tell me what happened to him?
68
00:06:11.0
HZ: To him?  The better onebecause I was in Poland a few years back, and I talked to his sister and the mother was still alive.  They said they killed him right away.  When the Russians came in, they killed him.
69
00:06:28.6
CP: Oh, so he ended up getting killed.
70
00:06:32.2
HZ: Because the Russians were very mad at all the bad Polacks.  They tried to kill them, the IK [sic].
This may be a reference to the Komitet Informatsii (Committee of Information), a Soviet intelligence agency in operation from 1947 to 1951;
71
00:06:41.7
CP: Were there a lot of Jewish people in your area?
72
00:06:45.9
HZ: Oy, were all Jews.  In our city was like 30,000 Jews.
73
00:06:50.6
CP: Was it pretty Orthodox?
74
00:06:54.1
HZ: It had all kinds, different kinds.
75
00:06:55.8
CP: What kind was your family?
76
00:06:57.6
HZ: No, we were like here, Conservative, not really Orthodox.
77
00:07:5.1
CP: But it was still a part of your everyday life and the culture?
78
00:07:8.8
HZ: Oh, yes.  Oh, yes.
79
00:07:9.8
CP: So what happened next?  Youre fourteen and the Germans come in, and then what happened next in the story?
80
00:07:18.5
HZ: No, next we wasit was home and we had to go to work every day.  We didnt even get paid, but we had to go to work.  And in forty-two [1942] they took me to theit was, at least in this time, like a working camp, and then a year later it became concentration camp.
81
00:07:42.0
1
0
00:08:26.6
CP: And so they were sorting out the people who seemed like they could work?
1
00:08:29.7
HZ: Right, right.  Like this, they showed like this: you go here and you go the other. So at this time I was separated from my brother and sister and my parents.  This was the last time I saw them.
2
00:08:42.6
CP: Thats the last time you saw your family?
3
00:08:44.5
HZ: Thats right.
4
00:08:46.2
CP: At the time, did you have any intuition that that would be the last time, or was it just?
5
00:08:51.6
HZ: No, we didnt notice its going to happen, if anything will come out of it, because the Germans were all over.  Everything thatseverything is going to belong to Germany.
6
00:09:2.8
CP: Did you get to say goodbye to anyone in your family? Or did it just
7
00:09:7.2
HZ: Nothing at all, just like this.
8
00:09:8.8
CP: Just, they got separated and they were
9
00:09:10.4
HZ: Because the Germans were right there, said, You go this way and you go the other way.000
10
00:09:13.6
CP: And since you were a young, strong man, you got taken to the work camp.
11
00:09:17.0
HZ: Right, sure.
12
00:09:18.3
CP: Can you tell me about your timeyou were only in the labor camp for a shortin that labor camp for a short period of time, is that right?
13
00:09:27.5
HZ: Right.  And then we went to another camp.
14
00:09:30.5
CP: What were you doing in Sakrau?  Was that when you were making bricks?
15
00:09:33.6
HZ: That was Freiwaldau [Jesenk, Czech Republic].
16
00:10:43.3
HZ: Right, right.
17
00:10:44.2
CP: How did that happen?
18
00:10:45.5
HZ: No, we were working together.
19
00:10:47.3
CP: Can you walk me through, like, an average day in thatin the second camp?  Like, would you
20
00:10:55.1
HZ: We have to get up at four oclock in the morning, was Appellplatz, and get together outside.  And they directed where we going to work and what we going to do.  And we were lucky enough that when wewe were around the forest, so when we walked through the forest to go to work, we picked up, like, berries or something, or mushrooms.  There, if we grabbed it, we could eat.  But the Germans couldnt see it.  We just walk in groups.  If you could grab it, we grabbed it.
21
00:11:35.0
CP: Were you risking your life to grab that?
22
00:11:37.2
HZ: Oh, yes.  Otherwise, they were shooting you.  We had good Germans.  We had the older Germans, they werent as bad; but the young ones, the Hitler-Jugend, they were bad.
23
00:11:51.1
CP: They were trying to prove themselves, maybe?
24
00:11:52.7
HZ: Right.
25
00:11:54.0
CP: You also mentioned that the kapos were worse than
26
00:11:59.3
HZ: No, the Jewish kapos were the worst ones.  They said, Youre not going to live over the wars.  I can do whatever I want with you.
27
00:12:9.5
CP: You mentioned one kapo in particular.  Do you remember that?
28
00:12:13.7
HZ: Yes.
29
00:12:15.2
CP: Can you tell me a little bit about him?
30
00:12:16.6
HZ: Whats his name?
31
00:12:18.1
CP: Was it Silverberg?
32
00:12:18.8
HZ: Yes.  He said, Youre not going to live out the war anyhow.  So, I can do whatever I want with you.  And then he got killed, because right after the war, he came back to Buchenwald when we were liberated, and he thought hes going to be okay and hes going to do good.  But in Weimar, outside Buchenwald, all those people from Buchenwald went to Weimar.  He didnt have much clothes, but with underwear we were goingand he came with another group, and he thoughtbut they almost killed him right there, the people who were in camp with him.
33
00:13:7.7
CP: Do you have a
34
00:13:8.7
HZ: And he was lucky that we had the Americans there, so they didnt let them kill him; they just took him away.
35
00:13:16.9
CP: Do you have any other particular memories that stick out from your time in that second camp?
36
00:13:25.2
HZ: Buchenwald?
37
00:13:26.7
CP: In Freiwaldau?
38
00:23:14.6
CP: And so he
39
00:23:17.1
HZ: And thats why I was left over there.
40
00:23:19.2
CP: And he let you be one of those people that couldnt work?
41
00:23:22.4
HZ: Right, with the people couldnt work.
42
00:23:24.0
CP: Wow.  So after you got to Buchenwald, it wasnt very long until you were liberated, is that correct?
43
00:23:36.4
HZ: In Buchenwald onlywhat was it? About ten, twelve days.
44
00:23:40.7
CP: Ten days you were there, yeah.
45
00:23:42.7
HZ: Liberated by the Americans.
46
00:23:46.0
CP: Did you know before liberation that it was coming, was there a sense of that?
47
00:23:49.2
HZ: No, no we didnt know.  Just army, the American army came through.
48
00:23:53.7
CP: That was April 11, 1945.
49
00:23:56.9
HZ: Right, right.
50
00:23:58.6
CP: Can you tell me about that day, like what happened on that day?
51
00:24:0.8
HZ: It was on a Wednesday afternoon when we were liberated.  And the Germansthe water was poisoned, everything was done.  So the American army was bringing in the tanks with water from Weimar.
52
00:24:17.6
CP: So when the Germans realized
53
00:24:18.9
HZ: It was five, five kilometers from Buchenwald, in Weimar.  So the Americans start bringing water, and they gave us goulash and all this stuff and it killed another 5,000 people.
54
00:24:33.8
CP: Because they ate too much?
55
00:24:35.4
HZ: Too much, right.  They gave us pieces of butter and margarine, the whole thing to eat.  And then, after so many start dying, they start changing the diet.
56
00:24:48.4
CP: And give you little rations instead.
57
00:24:49.6
HZ: Right.
58
00:24:50.4
CP: You said that
59
00:24:51.0
HZ: (inaudible) and other stuff.
60
00:24:52.5
CP: You said that there was a warehouse that was open, and that was probably the worst thing, cause you could take all this stuff and
61
00:25:1.3
HZ: Right, right.
62
00:25:1.9
CP: And your systems were used to eating so little food that
63
00:25:5.5
HZ: Right, right.
64
00:25:8.2
CP: And you mentioned that the Germans poisoned the water.
65
00:25:11.6
HZ: They poisoned the water.
66
00:25:12.7
CP: Did they do that when they knew that it was kind of a lost cause and so they just said, Poison everything
67
00:25:17.1
HZ: Right, right they knew this.
68
00:25:18.3
CP: And run away.
69
00:25:18.9
HZ: People would just leave and they have to run away.
70
00:25:21.2
CP: Did you know, when the Americans came in on that Wednesday afternoon, did you know immediately that you were being liberated?
71
00:25:29.4
HZ: Oh, sure, we saw the American army.  [Dwight D.] Eisenhower came a few days later, but [George S.] Patton came right away.
72
00:25:42.3
CP: You mentioned that all those who were still alive, they had to register right there.
73
00:25:46.9
HZ: Oh, yes.
74
00:25:47.8
CP: And you still have that paper, is that correct?
75
00:25:49.3
HZ: Right, I have it.  Sure.
76
00:25:50.8
CP: And well take a look at that afterwards.  About how many people were liberated that day, were still alive?
77
00:25:57.9
HZ: Oh, it wasI dont know.  I know 5,000 died after we were liberated, because we were just piled inin every corner were all those people that came from the camps.
78
00:26:15.9
CP: Did you get sick from eating too much?
79
00:26:19.0
HZ: No, I got sick.  I got typhoid.  And a good thing we had the Americans, because they gave us medications, whatever they could, and start giving us better diets.
80
00:26:33.0
CP: You said the Americans gave you over to the Russians, is that right?
81
00:26:38.2
HZ: No, because the Americans left Buchenwald.  They gave the whole thing, the wholelike Thringen: it was like a state, like here, like Ohio.  It was in Thringen Buchenwald was, so they gave it back to the Russians.  So thats why we left with the Americans.  We had a choice to stay with the Russians or go with the Americans, and we went therefore to Bamberg.
82
00:27:6.3
CP: Can you tell the story about going to Bamberg and you were on the train, but then you decided to
83
00:27:11.0
HZ: We left it, yes.  In a whole group we left and we went down to the city in Bamberg.  And the mayor gave us already food stamps and other stuff to start living.  And he gave us quotas, like the Germans that lived in the houses or something, because they had to give up one room for the people, for the Hftlinge.
84
00:27:43.6
CP: So you had a place to say?
85
00:27:45.2
HZ: Right.
86
00:27:46.6
CP: And if I remember correctly, you actually were on a train and you just decided to leave the train
87
00:27:51.7
HZ: To get off, yes.
88
00:27:52.5
CP: Right?
89
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HZ: Yes, at Schlsselfeld.  Yeah, I have the pictures there, with the people there.
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CP: And then, I think the next part of the story is where you meet your wife.  Is that correct?
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HZ: Yes.
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CP: Okay, so I think we might want to save that for the second interview part.  How much more time do we have?
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Nafa Faalogo: Half an hour.
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CP: Oh, okay.  Wow.
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HZ: Yeah. I had thetyphus.  I said the typhoid.
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CP: Yeah, you mentioned that you were sick right at the end.
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HZ: Mentioned the typhoid, sure.
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CP: Well, theres a few last questions, then, that Id like to ask you right now.  And you mentioned that in telling your story, you want to make sure that people know that your storyeverythings true from day one, right?  You said that in the first interview.
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HZ: Right.
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CP: You alsowould you like to talk a little bit about your feelings about God and faith after surviving?
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HZ: After surviving we didnt believe in anything anymore, because we had people that we knew in one camp and everything, and they couldntnothing.  They were just dying like flies.
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CP: Do you still feel that way today?
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HZ: It just changes a little, but not as much as we were before the war.  Not the same thing.
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CP: But still, culturally, being Jewish is a big part of
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HZ: Right, thats the biggest part is just being Jewish.  We still believe that the Jews, they weretheyre always saved with the Inquisition, with everything else, they still live through.  Thats all what it matters.  And now we have an Israel; we never thought we going to have it.  So thats the only thing what we live for.
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CP: And can you tell me a little bit about how youve lived with these memories for sixty years now?
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HZ: We tried to block them out, but we couldnt.  We were with friends for theeven after the war, we met friends.  And before the war I had a friendhes still in Montrealthey were two brothers.  One died just two days before we were liberated in Buchenwald, and the other one is living now in Montreal.  And we were sleeping on the same bed all the time, up and down, Abramovich.  And he is related to the Pilas.
Salomon and Herta Pila were also interviewed for the Holocaust Survivors Oral History Project. The DOI for their interview is F60-00033.
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CP: When you were younger, was it easier to not think about these memories, and do you think about them more?
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HZ: It was never easy.
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CP: Never easy.
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HZ: Never easy.
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CP: Did you
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HZ: What we went through, you could never believe it.  I had friends what we went in camp together and everything, and one of his cousins went to Israel; he was working for the Dan Hotel in Israel.  And the other one was staying in Cleveland together.  He died and the other one died, and they was very close friends.
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CP: And are there any
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HZ: Sheet metal men, sheet metal people.
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CP: And are there any other stories that you can think of right now that you would like to share from your experience?
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HZ: You can ask me whatever.
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CP: Okay.  I guess the last question then that I have for right now is: Do you have any message for someone who might watch this interview in the future, who wants to learn about?
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HZ: Yeah, just it shouldnt happen again.  Just stay away and not hate people.  Because we just here for a short time, all of us, and hate is not going to do anything good to nobody.  Thats why even today I worry all about whats going on in the Middle East or here or there.  People are not here forever, so they shouldnt go through all those things.  Be more close to each other, and no hate.
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CP: Well, thats very profound, and thank you so much for sharing your experience with us today.
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HZ: Youre welcome.
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CP: Thank you.
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Carolyn Ellis: The date is October 29, 2010.  Im interviewing survivor Sylvia Zyndorf.  My name is Carolyn Ellis.  We are in Lutz, Florida, in the United States.  Were using English, and the videographers are Nafa Faalogo and Richard Schmidt.
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This is tape one with Sylvia Zyndorf.  Thank you so much for being willing to be interviewed and to tell your story.  Id like to start with your saying your complete name for us.
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Sylvia Zyndorf: Sylvia Zyndorf.
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CE: Okay.  And what was your maiden name before you were married?
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SZ: Gips.
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CE: And thats G-i-p-s?
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SZ: Yes.
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CE: Okay.  And you also said that you have had a Jewish name?
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SZ: Yes, Zlata-Cirka.
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CE: Okay, and that is spelled Z-l-a-t-a dash C-i-r-k-a.  And then your last name was Gips.
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SZ: Yeah.
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CE: Okay, and your date of birth?
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SZ: July 7, 1930.
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CE: July
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SZ: Seven-fifteen [July 15].
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CE: Yes, okay, July 15, and 1930.  And then, would you like to talk about your birth date a little bit, why its sometimes different?
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SZ: Yeah, I can talk.  I mean, when we camebefore we went to, you know, concentration [camp], or even sweeping or cleaning when we came into Czstochowa, they said if youre too young they wouldnt use you.  You know, you go to the left or to the right.  The older you say you are, the better it is.  So on the front people were saying. So, we changed two years, thirteen fromthirteen was fine.  So I was eleven instead, and they took me when I said Im thirteen, not eleven. So I kept that till I was free, you know, 1928.
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CE: Okay, so sometimes your birthday is listed as July 15, 1928.
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SZ: I didnt change because I got married too young, so I didnt change
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CE: You didnt change it?
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SZ: My brother left it like 1930.  He changed it, I didnt.
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CE: You didnt change yours.  Okay.  All right, so
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SZ: It doesnt matter, two years.
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CE: It doesnt matter now, does it?
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SZ: At that time it meant my life and everything, and a lot of people dideven my little sister was with me, like I said, Chaya.  I gave her three years, older.
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CE: You made her three years older?  Okay.  And how old are you now?
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SZ: Nineteen twenty-eight.
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CE: So how old does that make you now?
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SZ: That makes me eighty.  I just had in July.
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CE: You just turned eighty?
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SZ: Yes.
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CE: Congratulations.  I just turned sixty.
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SZ: Thats good.
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CE: Okay.  And the city and country where you were born?
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SZ: I was born in Poland in Bodzanw.
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CE: And thats spelled B-o-d-z-a-n--w.
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SZ: Yes.
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CE: And what is that near?
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SZ: Thats near Pock, another city, and Warsaw not far.
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CE: Okay, and thats
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SZ: Poland wasnt as big as the United States, so
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CE: Okay, and thats spelled P-l-o-t-z [sic].
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SZ: Yeah.
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CE: So, how big was the town you grew up in?
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SZ: The townwell, most of them, maybe it was 5,000 Jews or not, but it wasnt too big.  But my grandparents were living there, and of course, you know, they gave my father the house.  And most of them who came together, you know, from all over to Poland lived from the parents homes.
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CE: So there were about 5,000 people there
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SZ: Jews.
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CE: Five thousand Jews, you think?
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SZ: Yeah, it must have been more, maybe, you know.
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CE: Okay, so a lot of Jewish people lived
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SZ: Yeah, most of them.
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CE: Lived in that town.
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SZ: All around, if I remember, most of them were Jewish.
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CE: And what was your neighborhood like?
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SZ: It was nice, you know.  We had a grocery.  See, a long time on one side was a grocery and one side yard goods and a store.  We had two big bedrooms and a kitchen. And the store, you didnt have toilets like here; you have to go out to thelike, in the back there was, like, a farm.  You know, like my father was going around with my mother together the whole time, and they took a horse and buggy.  There were no cars or anything at that time.
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CE: And who lived in the house with you?
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SZ: Me, of course.  Before the war broke out we were seven kids, my grandmother, and my father and my mother: ten people.
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CE: Ten people.  And lets go over the names of your siblings.  Your sister was
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SZ: Yeah, it was Rifka
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CE: Rifka, R-i-f-k-a.
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SZ: Yeah, and Leah, and Chaya, the one who was with me.
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CE: Okay, and her name is spelled C-h-a-y-a, right?
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SZ: Yes.  We gave her ten years, you know, that wayshe really was seven, you know.
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CE: She was seven, and you gave her ten years.
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SZ: Yeah, everybody in the concentration, even outside, helped the work for her and everything, at the ammunition factory.
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CE: Okay, and then you had another sister named Molly?
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SZ: Yeah, but I didnt know where she was.
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CE: Okay, and then you had two brothers, right?
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SZ: Yeah.  Teddy I knew because he came back later.  He was in the partisan; thats the underground.
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CE: Okay, and then Harry.
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SZ: Harry was in the concentrationin the back, you know.  It was divided: the men in the back and the women in the front.
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CE: Okay, and hes still
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SZ: Hasak, yeah.
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CE: Okay.  Hes still alive in Cleveland, right?
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SZ: Yeah, hes in Cleveland.
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CE: Okay.  But if we go backif we go back now to your childhood, they were all living in the house.
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SZ: Yeah, we were all living in the house.  And we had, like I said, the store, and most of the kids helped out in the house because my grandmother took care of us and my father and my mother were gone, you know, to sell yard goods.  They was, like, go to bigyou know, they go to farms or anyplace, and grocery and stuff like that.  They came back because my father was very religious, I mean Orthodox; my whole family was.  And he had only one brother, and the brother lived a little farther away in another city, but they didnt have any kids.  But we hadyou know, my grandmotheryou know, my grandfather died.  None of the kids remember, must have been a long time.  But my grandmother lived with us the whole time.  And we justwhoever was older went to school.  I went two years to school, because
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CE: Two years?
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SZ: over there you started when you were seven.  And weI was nine, so I went to two years.
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CE: Two years of school.
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SZ: In Septemberthe third year I didnt go, because the Germans came in at that time.
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CE: Okay, all right.  Before we go to that, tell me some more aboutthat you remember about growing up?
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SZ: Well, it was nice.  You know, everybody was taughtlike I said, with the grandmothertaught to keep twin and take one of the otheryou know, the seven kids.  But I was like the middle.  My sister Molly was the oldest, and then Teddy, the one in the partisan, was the second.
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CE: Okay.  And he was your twin brother?
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SZ: Yeahno!
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CE: No, Harry was your twin.
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SZ: Harry; hes still in Cleveland.  But the others were the youngest after me, with my brother.
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CE: Okay.
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SZ: And of course there was four kids after us and three before.
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CE: Okay.  Did you dotaking care, did you take care of your siblings?
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SZ: Oh, yeah, everybody took care.
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CE: Everybody did.
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SZ: Yeah.  You know, we watched the store and everything, because there was a lot ofsee, the grocery was in the little bags, staying around anything that was available; you know, one side was the yard goods.  So we were watching the store.  The gypsies used to come in, they shouldnt steal; others shouldntone watched till the store closed.  Then we ate and we went up on the attic, and up there was the thing you could sit and play and the kids get together and everything.  Every child had a responsibility to take care of everything, when my mother and father was always busy.
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But we hadmy mother, you know, had five sisters, but two lived in the same city where we lived.  One was fromwith my other grandmother, my mothers, you know.  Grandmother lived there and her sister lived; but they had seven kids, too, and they had like a (inaudible) sweet ice cream cakes, things like that.  Well, we had most of the friends and (inaudible) for everybody you knew.  You were together, and we were very close, everybody in the city, you know.  It wasntwe were very close.  Well, my mother had three more sisters, but they livedone who lived in Warsaw.  Thats why we were goingI was going with my father, you know, to see Warsawthats a big city, youve probably heardwhere there was grocery.  In d, my mothers sister had the factory, very, very well off, and they were making the yard goods.  And so I was going with my father; sometimes he took me to stay with my aunt.  One was in Pock.  But they all had seven to nine kids: nobody alive, none of them.
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CE: So you were close to your father?
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SZ: Oh, very.  My father, he was still young and everything.  He was thirty-nine; in fact, I got some, you know, papers after.  And my mother was thirty-seven, two years younger.
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CE: And your fathers name was?
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SZ: Chaim Moshe.
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CE: Chaim Moshe, okay.  And your mothers name was?
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SZ: Was Brana.
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CE: Brana, B-r-a-n-a.
224
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SZ: Yeah, Brana Goldberg, from myyou know, from my mothers side, you know.  My name was Gips, my fathers side.
225
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CE: And tell me a little bit about your religious life growing up.  I know you were very religious.
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SZ: Yeah, well, we were religious.  See, in the smaller cities, wasnt like here big synagogues.  There was just like small, like you see the steeple, and thats where my father alwaysevery day he wouldnt go to work or anyplace to lay tefillinyou know, like religiousand say the prayers and this and that.  And mostly all the boys were more taught Hebrew, to read and to know and everything.
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CE: And you werent?
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SZ: The girls, too.
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CE: You werent taught that?
230
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SZ: Yeah, but not as muchyou know, like the boys, that they should know how to daven, you know, how to pray, how to read Hebrew, how to do everything.  And they keep a strictly kosher home.
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CE: Strictly kosher home.
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SZ: In fact, you know, a long time ago it was different.  Evenno matterwe were ten kidsten people, you know with the kids.  But he managed every Saturday, you know, to bring somebody poor who couldnt afford to eat for dinner.  We were used to it.  Most of them did that.
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CE: And so what was a Saturday like?  Start with Friday night.
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SZ: Yeah, Friday night we hadyou know, he came home that afternoon from work; they wouldnt work anymore.  And we hadyou know, my grandmother and all of us, she was teaching and help us make meals, make cooking and doing everything.  And then when we sit down, of course you always light the candles, and in the kitchen nobody worked and everything.  And there was no, likesee, the stoves were mostly made for, likefrom, you know, stone in the big things.  And the same thing with the cooking: you put coals underneath and on top was wood.  So, why I bring this up?  You know, for Saturday dinner, mostly went to the bakery; they made like a stew or something and picked it up Saturdays.  And nobodyyou see, at that time the religious didnt cook on Saturday.  So they brought the food home and Saturday, you know, you ate thosethe foods and now all this stuff, so you shouldntand the kids were taught how to do it.
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CE: Okay.  What else did you do on Saturday?
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SZ: Well, we went with the other kids, went to the park and all over together with our age.  I knew everybody and everybody came together.  Everybody we knew.  But it was just a different life, and we didnt think about anything else.  And I could go insee, now its different.  A long time ago you didnt think that the grandmother or the father or the mother to say, Shut up, or this and that.  But one thing my kids neverif we agreed or not, but we never would talk back.  Whatever they said, thats what you were brought up to listen and pay attention and not to be like, No, never.  Thats why it helped a lot, till, you know, everything was fine.
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We made a good living and everything.  We hadthe house was ours, you know.  In fact, on one side there wassee how it was?  Not so spoiled.  There was on the other side the same thing: two bedrooms, with the stove, you know, with the kitchen, rented out.  Instead ofyou know, you could open the door and heat it.  They built the homes different before.  I had the picture and I think (inaudible).  And thats where we were happy, made a living.  My father was used to it, but he was so good: never to hurt or that somebody should get hit or beat or anything, abuse people.  No such thing.
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CE: Okay.  And did you like school?
239
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SZ: Oh, yes, but the only thing is I didntas soon as you start here, you start by five.  In there, all of thetill today, Europe is seven.
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CE: Okay.  Were you good at school?
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SZ: Yeah.  I mean, I know how to read so good; but writing, not more in Polish, because I was brought up in the Yiddish.  Till today, I mean, with my brother I could talk everything Polish, and I remember and everything.
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CE: Did you speak Yiddish at home?
243
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SZ: Always, 100 percent, always.  Polish and Yiddish.
244
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CE: So you spoke Polish, too?
245
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SZ: Yeah.  Oh, yeah.
246
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CE: And when did you speak Yiddish?  How did
247
00:49:21.2
SZ: All the time.  I mean, anytimeyou know, with the grandmother.  All the kids knew, perfect; in fact, thats why my daughter, you know, and my son, all three of them know.
248
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CE: They know Yiddish?
249
00:49:33.8
SZ: Yeah.  Oh, yes.
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CE: So you taught it to them?
251
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SZ: Yeah.  Well, we were talking a lot of times, and when we didnt want them to know something we talk in Polish; but mostly Yiddish they know.  Even my daughter who went to Germanyshe was, you know, visiting where she was born.  She could talk to them and understand.
252
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CE: Okay.  So now, lets go back to when did everything change for you?
253
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SZ: Well, it changed in 1939, on a Friday, when the Germans came in.
254
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CE: So you remember the day?
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SZ: Oh, nobody ever forgets, never.  It was horrible, horrible.  They came in.  Of course you see that some Polish werent so bad, but the others, right away you couldnt sell anything, you couldnt buy.  They were telling not to buy [from] Jews, not to do.  And of course you have to put on a star, you know, and you couldnt go out; even little kids had to have it.  And it wasbut you know, still some places, the Polish werent so bad, so they brought some food and they brought this and that.  You tried the best you could.
256
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But in fact, one of the first cousins was not far, living someplace with her family, and they killed her son right away.  So she moved in and lived by us in the store, you know, but there was no store.  And when you made ropeof course I dont know the thing here too.  You made from straw: that means from what you cut the grass or something, you know, from dried out grass or whatever, you know, the mattresses.  So you sew together, I think.  Yeah, cause we had to make our own mattresses.
257
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CE: So you were making mattresses?
258
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SZ: Sure, for thats the only thing you needed, and nobody had the regular, you know, mattresses.
259
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CE: So you made them for yourself or you made them to sell?
260
00:51:44.7
SZ: No, we made them for them, you know, when the cousin came.  For us also, most of the time whenever it wasnt good, you know, my father had them (inaudible), he made it, it was something you change because it didnt last that long.  So when they came in, the Germans, first of all whoever could to go to sweep or clean or do stuff and everything, because any time they came into any city, they set up a big place and right away put all the Jews to work.  So whoever could workand of course you couldnt go out at night, after dark, because it was against the law; otherwise, they would kill you.  You couldnt sit outside or do anything, so you had to stay in the house.  So it wasnt good, but still it was bad.
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And in every city there was, you know, the Jewish kapos.  And one openedin fact, he watched and everything.  There was a shoemaker whoat that time you couldnt buy nothing, and everythingold shoes he was fixing and everything.  You know, you couldnt do it, but he did it.  So he went and told on him, and of course later they killed the shoemaker.
262
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CE: So times are really hard, and all the Jewish stores are closed at this point?
263
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SZ: No, you couldnt sell.  They were saying for you not to sell the Jewishnot to do anything for the Jews.  You couldnt.
264
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CE: And how were you getting food at this point?
265
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SZ: Very little, but whatever you could, like I said, hiding and everything, whoever.  My father, my mother, like I saidsince I can remember we going, you know, to the farm, to here, to there, selling.  So some were nice and they trusted them, so they were bringing to him with somehe was sharing with others, giving and all.  Thats how we lived through.
266
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CE: So there were a lot of Polish people who were nice?
267
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SZ: Yeah.
268
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CE: And continued to be.
269
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SZ: Yeah, thats right, because he was good to them before, in giving him a lot of time.  See, the farmers didnt have much, and he trusted him, and they gave himwhatever they had, they gave him: a chicken or eggs or this or that, anything, traded it in, you know, before the war, but till forty-one [1941], in March.
270
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CE: So you had about two years of this?
271
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SZ: Yeah.
272
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CE: Where your fathers getting some food
273
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SZ: Yeah, till the Germans, you know, decided to come.  And if you would see the city, youd see this small, you know, hidden and everything.  But you know who (inaudible).
274
00:54:47.7
CE: Before we move from that period of 1939 to 1941, so, your life really was in the house all the time?
275
00:54:55.7
SZ: Yeah.  Oh, yeah, till forty-one [1941].  You went out.  Every child who could, they would go around; otherwise you were in trouble the moment you tried to sweep, to clean, to help, to do anything for them.
276
00:55:10.4
CE: So you were having to do all that work, too?
277
00:55:12.3
SZ: Yeah.  Well, everybody had to, but whatever, you know, they shouldnt do whatever they can.  But they shouldnt be mad or beat you up and going to be that plenty and do this and that.  But at forty-one [1941], in March, thats when they put up a law and they took us away from there.
278
00:55:32.4
CE: Okay, but before you go theredid they come to your house ever?  Did they come into your house?
279
00:55:39.6
SZ: Oh, sure!  They went to all the houses, those punks, the young ones, to check to see what you are, what you do, what it is.
280
00:55:52.1
CE: And what did they do in the house?  Did they take things?
281
00:55:54.4
SZ: Well, whatever they didnt like, you know, that you had too much, you had to hide.  You knew already.  Between the mattress, between this and you know.  Otherwise, sure, they took it away.
282
00:56:7.1
CE: Did you have secret compartments in your house?
283
00:56:9.3
SZ: Oh, yeah.
284
00:56:10.2
CE: Tell me.
285
00:56:11.0
SZ: In fact, you knowsee, in Poland, and I guess all over Europe, there was cellars.
286
00:56:18.6
CE: Yes.
287
00:56:19.5
SZ: In thereit wasnt like here you would say a cellar.  It wasyou know, in the winter you put potatoes and everything was cold over there.  So of course my father, when the winter came, took out a whole bunch of the stones from the thing and put it and hide.
288
00:56:39.8
CE: Hide it behind the stones.
289
00:56:41.3
SZ: Hide most of the things, most of theyou know, even when we went away.  And then, of course, you had to haveall over there was wooden floors, and in the store there was a wooden floor.  And then there was the ceiling; that was wooden, you know?
290
00:57:0.4
CE: Yes, yes.
291
00:57:1.5
SZ: So between there they were hiding a lot of yard goods, when they could bring something, and nobody knew how long the war is going to be.  So whatever they could, they were showing the kids where they were hiding this and that.  And in cellar [there was] the gold and silver, and kind of this and that.
292
00:57:20.5
CE: Wow!
293
00:57:21.0
SZ: Yes, because a lot of them did that, because over there you took out the stones, like I said, you know, the deep, and made itand there was potatoes.  Well, I dont think nobody paid attention to that, you know, when they came.
294
00:57:35.9
CE: But I just want to just go ahead for a moment, but then bring you back.  Did you getwere you able to get any of those things that were hidden, after the war?
295
00:57:44.3
SZ: After the
296
00:57:46.1
CE: No?  No?
297
00:57:47.9
SZ: We didnt see a penny or nothing, because they see what was between the stuff and everything.  Later on I guess they were finding other ones that were throwing down and looking on, and then maybe the Polackmaybe them.  Nothing.
298
00:58:6.7
CE: So they were gone?
299
00:58:7.5
SZ: No.  In fact, when we came back in forty-one [1941]
300
00:58:13.4
CE: Okay.  So now thats 1939 to 1941, and then what happened in 1941?
301
00:58:19.5
SZ: They came.  They put out, you know, the large picker and all the women go andlater on, they, of course, went house to house to check if everybodys out.  They told us to go outside to that big, big place where theyaround the church there was a bigyou know, where they had like a flea market or anything that bigand everybody went there.
302
00:58:45.2
CE: What did you take with you?
303
00:58:46.4
SZ: Whatever you could on the thing.  You know, my father made those bags, what you can carry, like here you have those things.  And everybody took whatever they could and they told them to come there, and then when we came there, they had those armies, what you call those motoryou know, they open.  Thosewhat they took the army away, see, those automobiles.  Not the big, big one, those allthose big ones, the open ones.
304
00:59:28.6
CE: The tanks?
305
00:59:29.5
SZ: No, no, a regular army driving
306
00:59:33.9
CE: Trucks?
307
00:59:34.4
SZ: Truck.
308
00:59:35.0
CE: Trucks.
309
00:59:35.8
SZ: A big truck on the open
310
00:59:36.2
CE: With the open bed?
311
00:59:37.1
SZ: Yeah, with the open.  Thats called an army truck because there was no allowing us trains or anything.  And from there we wentwe marched to Dziadowo [Soldau].
312
00:59:49.0
CE: You marched?
313
00:59:49.9
SZ: Yeah.
314
00:59:50.9
CE: And how far was that?
315
00:59:52.9
SZ: Well, it wasnt far, I would say.  I dont know.  To Czstochowa was longer.  It was about, I would say, 100 miles or whatever, and we were walking.
316
01:00:3.9
CE: And thats spelled Z-i-a-l-d-o-w-a [sic].
317
01:00:6.9
SZ: Yeah.
318
01:00:7.5
CE: Right, okay.
319
01:00:8.2
SZ: Yeah, Dziadowo.  And there we were, of coursewhat for did we need to take anything?  They took everything away.
320
01:00:16.9
CE: They took everything you had?  So it didnt matter what you had?
321
01:00:19.4
SZ: No, only what you were wearingand then what you were wearing, cause jewelry, that you can forget.  They didnt
322
01:00:27.4
CE: Did you have anything hidden on you?
323
01:00:29.3
SZ: Yeah, but they took everything away, becauseyou know, just the clothes you were wearing are theyou know, (inaudible) nothing with the nothing.  So we were all together and it was okay.  But then later, you know, we came in there, a lot of people were sick because they didnt give you so much to food and everything, but they were telling us were going to go someplace else and be better, you know.
324
01:00:58.8
CE: Yeah.  So when youre in Dziadowo
325
01:01:1.8
SZ: Yeah, I think five to six months, something like
326
01:01:6.7
CE: Five to six months you were there?
327
01:01:7.9
SZ: Yeah.
328
01:01:8.7
CE: And what was that like?  What was the place like you were in?
329
01:01:11.8
SZ: It was just like, you know, like anything, like a farm or something, like I said, not big.  And over there, of course, you work for them because they had, like, barns or garageyou know, to go out in the farms and work and all those things.
330
01:01:32.5
CE: Did you all work together, your whole family?
331
01:01:34.7
SZ: Everybody went, not justthe whole city, you know, there was nothing left at home.  And so they all went and they tried to work, and you got very little thing.  I never forget my mother hiding the bread here to give it to the kids, and she really (inaudible).  Thats why I said I get mad because they abused the kids, see. And in therefrom there, there was from a train there in Dziadowo.
332
01:02:8.7
CE: A train, okay.
333
01:02:9.5
SZ: Yeah, and the train took us to Czstochowa.
334
01:02:12.5
CE: Okay, and thats spelled C-h-e-s-t-o-c-h-o-w-a, right?
335
01:02:18.6
SZ: Yeah.
336
01:02:19.3
CE: Okay, so you got on a train.
337
01:02:21.3
SZ: Yeah, all of us.
338
01:02:22.0
CE: Did they just kind of put you all on a train together?
339
01:02:25.1
SZ: All of them, like sardines.  Yeah, from there we went to closed trains, you know, we went
340
01:02:33.0
CE: You were in the closed
341
01:02:33.9
SZ: Yeah.
342
01:02:34.5
CE: Were you in the closed train in the beginning?
343
01:02:36.0
SZ: Yeah, from there to Czstochowa.
344
01:02:39.1
CE: Okay, okay.
345
01:02:40.2
SZ: We went in the train.  And from the train, you know, everybody was together.
346
01:02:45.4
CE: Were you real crowded in the train?
347
01:02:47.2
SZ: Always.
348
01:02:49.2
CE: And you were standing?
349
01:02:50.0
SZ: Yeah.  Well, there was no place to sit. There was no
350
01:02:54.2
CE: So its more like a cattle car kind of thing?
351
01:02:56.2
SZ: Yeah, yeah, something like that; you know, they just took.  From there we went to Czstochowa, and at Czstochowa we came in theyou know, there was a big, bigsupposed to been a synagogue, but there was no roof.  And thats where were on the thing.
352
01:03:15.0
CE: So you were staying in a place with no roof?
353
01:03:16.7
SZ: Most of us.  In fact my brother Teddy went away to the partisan, got pneumonia, and was in the hospital.  But at that time when we came in, the ones who lived in Czstochowa, the Jews, was still in their own home and everything.  So we went cleaning, doing all kinds of stuff, and they helped out a little.
354
01:03:42.4
CE: They did?  Did they bringwere they able to give you food?
355
01:03:44.7
SZ: Very little, because they themselves didnt have, but they helped out.  And everybody from us wentmy father, everybody was working for them, you know, and doing for the Germans anything you could so you shouldnt starve.  And so
356
01:04:3.3
CE: Did the Germans give you food?
357
01:04:4.7
SZ: Yes, they gave.  But you know, you were standing in the line, and the food wasnt nothing.
358
01:04:12.8
CE: What was it?
359
01:04:13.8
SZ: Like, you know, raw potatoes, cooked into like big, big barrels, what they cook the big kettles with the soups.  But whatever they couldnt use, they gave to people like us.  But you thank God for having that little dried out bread or anything, cause you didnt have (inaudible).  But see, so long as there wasnt a ghetto, they were helping out, yet, you know.
360
01:04:45.4
CE: So there wasnt a ghetto?
361
01:04:47.0
SZ: No, the people were still living, when we came innot just from there, from other cities, too, to Czstochowa; it was a bigger cityyou know, in the home.  The ghetto started in the beginning of forty-two [1942].  And so, of course, from one place they transported, took to the other.
362
01:05:7.9
CE: So in 1942, all the other Jews in that town ended up in the ghetto?
363
01:05:12.3
SZ: Yeah, had to be in the ghetto.  And of course at that time
364
01:05:15.5
CE: And are you still in the synagogue?  Are you still living in the synagogue?
365
01:05:18.3
SZ: Yeah, but you see what it was, when we were living in the synagogue, [in the] outskirt in Czstochowa, they were starting to build the HASAG.
366
01:05:29.5
CE: The concentration camp?
367
01:05:30.6
SZ: Camp.  But they told us different.  You see that burned out thing, this and that?  Its not good.  The quicker you finish that, you have your own homes.  Thats what they told.
368
01:05:41.0
CE: Oh, so the quicker you finished HASAG, then you
369
01:05:45.7
370
01:05:56.2
CE: So that was right there?
371
01:05:57.6
SZ: Yeah, there was putting one left, whoever could go.  And the one too younglike my three little sisters, they were too young, and the others, so they went.  You see, what happened, I know exactly when they went to Treblinka, because at that time wasnt big enough Auschwitz: there was no Auschwitz, it was Treblinka.  But I know why because I had people, you know, who were there and saw it.  So they told us, because they were working there when they went, because we were already going to the concentration camps, so I wasnt there.  But the others who helped out and workedand of course the rabbi, where I showed you the picture, he was why I know exactly when they went.  It was Yom Kippur.  And the Germans came in and said to the rabbi and to everybody that they have to go to work.  I dont care if its Yom Kippur.  The rabbi said, You can take them and tell them, but Im not telling them to go.  You know, they were religious and everything.  Well, the next day, they took them to Treblinka.
372
01:07:16.6
CE: So three of your siblings went to Treblinka?
373
01:07:18.7
SZ: Three, and of course my mother and my father.
374
01:07:23.2
CE: They went to Treblinka, too?
375
01:07:24.3
SZ: Oh, yeah.  Well, they went with them; see, they wouldnt give up kids.  And my mother was younger than my father, but they went, and of course most of them went. Whoever could was in the concentration camps; you see, we werent there when they went.
376
01:07:41.2
CE: So your mother and your father and three siblings went to Treblinka?
377
01:07:43.9
SZ: Yeah.
378
01:07:44.3
CE: And your mother and father volunteered to go with the kids cause they didnt want
379
01:07:47.1
SZ: Because you see, the thing is my grandmothers, both of them, and us, we had in forty-one [1941], around June, July, typhoid.  I had it; my brother had it, and everybody.  The medicine there wasnt, but you had high fever.  Thank God we lived through.  In forty-one [1941], no medicine and everything.  But my grandparents died.
380
01:08:15.1
CE: Oh, they did?  They died in this town?  In
381
01:08:19.5
SZ: In Czstochowa, in the hospital from the typhoid.  Otherwise, they would have gone to themy mother and father and the kids lived through.  We lived through, can you imagine?  And a lot of them lived, cause they had some that went at that time to the gas chambers, to Treblinka.  In fact we wentthe whole city, whoever lived through, and us, we donated money.  We built up a memorial in Treblinka.  So we went with the kids to show them and everything.
382
01:08:58.0
CE: Good, good.  You did?  Okay.
383
01:08:59.0
SZ: Yeah.
384
01:08:59.7
CE: But at this time, you have no idea where theyre going?  Theyre just leaving?
385
01:09:3.3
SZ: No.  Later I found out because I was already with my brother and Chaya, and we went to the HASAG, to theyou know.
386
01:09:15.5
CE: So nowso you and three of your siblings go to the concentration camp?
387
01:09:22.2
SZ: No, me and my brother, the twin.
388
01:09:25.0
CE: Just you and your brother?
389
01:09:25.8
SZ: He was in the back.
390
01:09:26.8
CE: The other one was out in the woods, the partisan?
391
01:09:29.8
SZ: That was before, way before.  He was at theyou know, I didnt know, but when he had pneumonia and he got a little better, he and a few others sneaked out, cause you had to, and he went to the woods and he found the other people.  And he wasif you saw the TreblinkaI mean the undergroundyou knew.  They did a lot of things (inaudible), and now he was gone.  But my little sisters, you know, the threeand Chaya, of course, later went with me and everything.  So they werea lot of friends in close families and first cousins and everything went to Treblinka: the ones who went to the concentration camp, of course, died out and everything.  Thats what we were there the whole time working in the fields, or in themaking bullets in the factory.
392
01:10:38.9
CE: Okay, so while youre in HASAGso you move into HASAG.  And what is thatdo you remember that day you went to HASAG?
393
01:10:46.1
SZ: Yeah, sure.  It was around November, December we went in, because the end of the monthend of the year of forty-two [1942], because they went away.
394
01:10:58.8
CE: Okay, now what was that camp like?
395
01:11:0.7
SZ: Well, it was just like any other, just made, you know, from nothing
396
01:11:6.7
CE: So it was worse than what you had been in before? No?
397
01:11:9.4
SZ: It was.  Sure it was, because first of all you had to be like, matchyou know, the beds, and the one on top of the other.  And then getting up early, four or five, whenever they wanted to go to the factory; or otherwise we work the fields, and in the fields we did to bring the food for them.
398
01:11:31.9
CE: Okay, okay, okay.
399
01:11:34.8
SZ: So thats where we worked, in fact.  You see, thats why I got sick, and it makes me guilty.  Because the whole time, friends would lay with me, and all of themyou had to make a certain amount, you know, the bullets.  They were helping out for my sister Chaya the whole time, and I did and everything, because she was young and she couldnt do it so much.  Then she wasnt feeling good, see.  But thats what happened: everybody helped out.
400
01:12:8.1
CE: So you were making bullets?  What did you actually do?
401
01:12:10.8
SZ: The bulletsyou see, they give you powder, you know?
402
01:12:15.1
CE: Powder.
403
01:12:15.9
SZ: Yeah, and theres a factory what you could makes the bullets, you see.  And you had to fill the powder, fill the powderyou know, make bullets.
404
01:12:25.2
CE: So you were putting the powder in the bullets?
405
01:12:27.0
SZ: Yeah, making those bullets, and making the shape from the bullet and put it down in one place in the maker and try to make it as much as you can, otherwise they didnt like it, and put the powder in.  Otherwise, you couldnt
406
01:12:45.2
CE: So you had to do so much
407
01:12:46.4
SZ: It was a factory of ammunition.
408
01:12:48.8
CE: Yes, okay.  And your sister wasnt doing enough?
409
01:12:52.7
SZ: She was doing the whole time.  You see, three months before, she couldnt; she was a little sick and this and that.  Going through (inaudible) lived through.  In three months before they took it away, they killed her.
410
01:13:8.2
CE: Can you talk about that?
411
01:13:9.8
SZ: No.
412
01:13:11.5
CE: Or would you prefer not to?
413
01:13:13.3
SZ: Oh, yeah.  I mean, I alwaysbut I felt guilty because they took her away and I lived, three months before.  Even my brother found out from other people that they took her away, because he knew he wasnt behind, you know, (inaudible).  The thing is, we tried, all the friends, to do everything with the helping out, doing double the work, and we couldnt.  And everythingyou know, thats why Im saying a person so strong that I couldnt do it now, even if I was young.  The things that we did wereyou wanted to live, you wanted to do it, you do it.  But first you didnt know that nobodys alive or anything, but you tried forever, you could.  And her, I was happy because we was here from the (inaudible) that the war will be finished, and it could have been.  But made us sick, and at that time I got sick.  The Russiansyou know, Stalin was right across, lets say like here and Clearwater.
414
01:14:21.8
CE: Yeah, yeah, that close.
415
01:14:23.8
SZ: That close.  You heard about the Warsaw Uprising, right?  From the ghettos, (inaudible) send them away.  They could haveif he would have finishedhe was sitting more than six monthsshe would have been alive.
416
01:14:40.3
CE: Wow!  So, did you see a lot of people killed while you were in?
417
01:14:46.8
SZ: You couldnt help it.  If somebody died we had to, you know, put them in the thing.
418
01:14:55.4
CE: So you had to carry
419
01:14:56.2
SZ: Of course, that waseven in Dziadowo, there was something they put in, like chlorine and everything, in big holes and put them in, you know.  And how many died like this?  That was nothing at that time.  Its normal.  Whoever was in a concentration camp saw plenty of that.  That you couldnt help.  But the worst thing was I felt guilty I didnt do enough or watching out for her, you know.
420
01:15:29.3
CE: But it sounds like you did every single thing you could?
421
01:15:32.6
SZ: We did, but, you see, they killed three months before.  Then, of course, we were freed in Czstochowa in January 27.  Ill never forget the Russians came in.  You know about the Russians?  That time, then afterwards we heard Stalin decided to (inaudible).
422
01:15:56.6
CE: Lets go back just for a moment to the concentration camp.  So, tell me what a day would be like.  Youd get up at four oclock, and what would happen?
423
01:16:5.2
SZ: Yeah, well, most of them didnt.  They gave you something to eat, like a piece of dried bread or anything.  We didnt have coffee or any kind of thing like that.  But then all ofthey wouldsee, you had to work twenty-four hours, it wasnt like during the day, because all of them couldnt go in at once.  So they took a group over there to work.  You work for hours over there, and then, you know, you come back.  And some days, the other group could be going to the farmsnot in the winter, because you couldnt do nothing with the snow.  But otherwise they wereall the fruits, all the vegetables, all the things, the same people picked it.  So, that was the life for the whole time from
424
01:16:58.3
CE: Did you get any food while you were out working?
425
01:17:0.3
SZ: Well, you could, but you had to hide; otherwise, you know.
426
01:17:4.5
CE: So you would get it out on the farm?
427
01:17:6.4
SZ: And another thingyeah, I even told my little sister, Dont touch nothing, and everythingto watch, because otherwise, you know, those youngthose punks, the Germans, they were bad.  So we had to watch not toit wasnt work to get herplenty of them tried.  So you just
428
01:17:28.6
CE: So you were picking food, but you couldnt eat it.
429
01:17:30.8
SZ: Yeah, you see, looking at
430
01:17:33.1
CE: Oh, that must have been hard.
431
01:17:33.6
SZ: Yeah, very hard.  But you get used to it, you know.
432
01:17:36.8
CE: Do you get used to it?
433
01:17:37.9
SZ: Yes, you get used to it, to know, to look away and everything, because your body feels likeyou have to fight. Maybe itsyou know, they were saying, even the ones who come in, a lot of Polacks, the war is going to finish and this and that.  So you wanted to live through and see everybody.
434
01:17:57.8
CE: Did you feel hungry?
435
01:17:59.3
SZ: After a while, you dont.
436
01:18:1.8
CE: You dont?
437
01:18:2.4
SZ: A person can go for weeks without.  When you come in, you know, when we came from Czstochowa into the concentration camp, took a while.  They didnt give you, and they waste food and they do something and clean up.  Youd be surprised how many times you can go without.  Even after the war, cause when the Russians freed us they didnt have it themselves so much.  But there were a lot of Jewish boys, and they tried to give you something.  Like, they were giving caviar: we couldnt eat it because we throw up.
438
01:18:41.5
CE: Did you get real skinny? Were you real thin?
439
01:18:43.4
SZ: Well, sure, everybody was like skeletons.
440
01:18:46.2
CE: Do you think if your sister had had more food, she would have been able to survive?
441
01:18:50.3
SZ: Maybe.  But you see, she went to (inaudible) undernourished, and she was young and this could be.  But the moment she couldntthey watched, those punks, and everything, took her.  Maybe.  I dont know.
442
01:19:7.0
CE: So the day they took her away, did you know what was going to happen?
443
01:19:10.5
SZ: Oh, sure.  Outside the other people, you know, they were burying and everything.  Not me, you know, (inaudible).  Everybody knew, and theres nothing you canthat finished me.  I was after that sick.
444
01:19:26.2
CE: That finished you?
445
01:19:27.1
SZ: Its a good thing the war finished quick, like I said, three months later in January.
446
01:19:33.8
CE: Did you feel like giving up at that moment?
447
01:19:36.5
SZ: Plenty of
448
01:19:38.1
CE: Was it plenty of times, you felt like giving up?
449
01:19:40.0
SZ: A lot of people did, couldnt go on and everything.  But, you see, you did.  You were fighting and thinking, Oh, we going to fight and everything, and then well be okay.
450
01:19:51.7
CE: Yeah.  So you didnt give up hope?
451
01:19:53.5
SZ: (inaudible), but we didnt know.  I could see when my parents went and I didnt know; but later when the others, you know, worked and helped themput on the train, put away and everything.  So they came to the concentration camp later and they told us that they took them.  Otherwise, we were already in there.
452
01:20:18.7
CE: Is there anything else about that time in the concentration camp that you want to talk about?
453
01:20:24.1
SZ: Well, you didnt havelike I said, that life was never could imagine, and you cant even think about it.  And then every day, you know, those punks, how many did they beat and how many did they this?  You didnt have the clothes to wear or this to wear, the coat; you were going around the winter.  Shoes?  (laughs)  Barefoot in winter.
454
01:20:50.9
CE: Were you barefoot at time?
455
01:20:51.8
SZ: Plenty of time, because you outgrow.  And then later you got from the wood made from the, you know
456
01:20:58.4
CE: Shoes made of wood?
457
01:20:59.8
SZ: You know who donated all this?  Scandinavian countries.
458
01:21:4.1
CE: Did they?
459
01:21:7.1
SZ: They were different, better than anyone to the Jews.  They couldntwhoever they couldwe had some in the concentration camp.  You know, they couldnt help themselves; they sent themyou know, they were away.  But the moment the war was over, they went home and they had everything back.
460
01:21:29.8
CE: Did you have friends in the concentration camp?
461
01:21:33.0
SZ: Oh, sure.  A lot of them wentof course, thats why I said if you ever go to Israelfrom all the people, all of them who were in concentration camp, a lot of them went to Israel, see.  And Israel theyre building up.  Oh, sure, I have the pictures and everything.
462
01:21:54.4
CE: Were you ever ableI dont even know how to say itto enjoy yourself, or to have fun?
463
01:22:0.8
SZ: Not at that time.  After a while you wanted to do for the kids, for this and that, but that was later.
464
01:22:8.2
CE: Yeah, but not during the concentration camp?
465
01:22:10.1
SZ: No, not during the camp.  (laughs)  Nobody could do it in ouryou were just afraid that today you live and who knows whats going to be any second.
466
01:22:20.0
CE: So thats mainly what you thought about?
467
01:22:21.6
SZ: Yeah, to fight and live through that.  Thats all.
468
01:22:25.1
CE: Did you ever get beaten in the camp?
469
01:22:27.3
SZ: Oh, a few.  When they sawyou try not to do the wrong thing but tried, you know, to help out.  And once the punks (inaudible), they beat you up because you shouldnt do it.  She has to do everything on her own.  Because a lot
470
01:22:46.6
CE: So when you were helping your sister?
471
01:22:47.9
SZ: Yeah, and a lot of times, whenever they couldnt see, somebody else will do itnot so much me, because me, they watched.
472
01:22:56.9
CE: Oh, because they knew you were going to help her?
473
01:22:58.6
SZ: Yeah, she was little.  But I had very, very good friends after the war.  We all together and everything, whoever lived through, cause most of them, you know, died out, you see.
474
01:23:12.6
CE: Do you have any ideas about why you survived?
475
01:23:17.8
SZ: Well, no.  Because its a miracle, thats why, I said.  A lot of time [they] killed everyone and a lot of them died, and I survived.  I dont know if God waswe didnt believe right after the war anymore, but when I had kids I wanted to teach them something.  So I said its not fair but brought up, and this and that, so thats why.  But to go through like this, especially when you come home [and] nobody alivewhat made you sick is, like I said, my mother had five sisters.  And the one in d with the big factory (inaudible) and everything and had nine kids and others, and nobodys alive.
476
01:24:9.5
CE: So now, lets talk about the day of liberation.
477
01:24:12.6
SZ: Yeah.
478
01:24:13.7
CE: Did you know it was coming?
479
01:24:15.2
SZ: Well, they were talking about it and we sawsee, the Russiansthe Germans, you know, if you heardkilling them like flies.  Some Russians were in concentration camps, too, all over, everyone you want to mention.  Even where Henry was, they were killing them like flies, worse than the Jews.  So the Russians freed us, and whenever they saw them killing them out, and they had the right to.  So they were sayingIll never forget it.  They came inthey themselves didnt have much, but they gave to us; and the skeletons and a lot of them dead, so they were helping bury and putting away.  And of course, they got rid of, you know, Auschwitz, and Treblinka and everything, which they were in the trains right away.  I wish you would haveits an old thing.  (inaudible) the bombing and there would have been so many people alive, but they didnt.
480
01:25:24.8
CE: So what happened that day?  Take me through that day.
481
01:25:28.3
SZ: Well, whenever we were freed, with everybody couldlike I said, they were helping out and everything.  So we all went to group.  Depends.  Some went, like I said, where they belongyou know, like the Scandinavian ones.  Went to Poland, one went towe wentI went withI found out my brother was there, so he came to me and other friends from the city, so we went home.
482
01:25:57.1
CE: You went home to your city?
483
01:25:58.8
SZ: To Bodzanw.  Yeah, but we found out just our friends are alive.  And we went inthe house was there; of course, the Polacks were living.  And then we went there
484
01:26:10.2
CE: There were Polish people living in your house?
485
01:26:12.4
SZ: In the house.  But we threw them out and everything and we stayed there.
486
01:26:16.3
CE: Was it hard to get rid of them?
487
01:26:17.6
SZ: Sure it was, but they went.  They knew because it was from the otherwhat they knew hundreds of years ago, the grandmother knew.  Anyway, so we went there.  But the only thing that was bad: we were starving during the war; well, we were starving after the war.  Because when we came home, there was nothing to eat, nothing toand we didnt have anything and we didnt have any clothes, you know, what we do.  And of course we had lice.  Who didnt?  Everybody had.  So the first thing we did is that shave your head, thats whateven the men
488
01:27:1.3
CE: They shaved your head.
489
01:27:3.3
SZ: And tried to go to the farms or here to give you some food.
490
01:27:9.8
CE: Okay.  Lets stop here because they have to change the tape, and then I will pick back up here.
491
01:27:14.8
SZ: Oh, okay.
492
01:27:15.3
CE: Okay.
493
01:27:18.0
SZ: But its true, the thing is
494
01:27:20.8
CE: Wait till he puts the tape on, because I dont want to lose anything.
495
01:27:24.1
SZ: No, no.
496
01:27:25.1
CE: You are such a good storyteller.
497
01:27:26.9
SZ: No, Im not.
498
01:27:28.0
CE: This is tape two with Sylvia Zyndorf.  So you were talking about going back to your house.
499
01:27:36.6
SZ: Yeah, we came into the house.  And of course a cousin came there and others, whoever lived through
500
01:27:45.3
CE: And youre with your brother now?
501
01:27:46.4
SZ: Oh, yeah, my brother.  Yeah, my twin brother.
502
01:27:49.3
CE: Your twin brother.
503
01:27:49.9
SZ: (inaudible)
504
01:27:53.2
CE: But do you know at this point that the rest of your family has died?
505
01:27:56.5
SZ: Well, the ones who came back from concentration camp, somethe boys especially, they were helping, you know, the burying and everything.  And they were the ones who told us that they took them to Treblinka because (inaudible).  Thats why I light candles, you know.  They have to know thats when they went to the gas chamber.  The group, what we knew, so thats where we found out.  So the ones who lived through came back to home, to check to see who was alive.  Because my brother from theyou know, who was in theyou know, the older one who was on the farm, you know on theTeddy didnt come back till later, when we were in Germany.  So just me and my
506
01:28:55.3
CE: So you didnt know he was alive?
507
01:28:56.6
SZ: No, because he was in the partisan and he didnt come back with the group yet; he was gone.  And me and my brother, and of course friends and everything, and somebody [with whom] I was going to school.
508
01:29:11.6
CE: You were going to school?
509
01:29:12.7
SZ: No, not then.  Before the war.
510
01:29:14.8
CE: Oh, people that you knew before the war?
511
01:29:16.6
SZ: Yeah, before the war.  So theysome who lived through came.  In fact, they came back, you know, some what were in Russia.  Like I said, I had two cousins and a friend, and then about three of them came backin fact, the ones who made the pictures.  He was a real good photographer and he worked, and thats how he made a living, you know, in Russia.  So we were there, but most of us had to go out and beg and this, and saw nobodys alive.  And then all of a sudden
512
01:29:58.6
CE: Did you go beg from people you knew?
513
01:30:1.9
SZ: Yeah.  Well, the onessome what we knew and everything back, but it was no good.  All of a sudden they came, from the Jewish center.  They sent the group and they said, Whoever is under eighteenyou know like usin a group, they will send you to the childrens home.  There was a note for (inaudible) to get to Warsaw, and in there we have clothes, food, everything.  But so we went there, and of course
514
01:30:35.9
CE: You and your brother went there?
515
01:30:37.2
SZ: Oh, yeah.  Not just therea lot of them went to, you know, Israelbut we wentwhoever was there and freed.  Not just from Bodzanw, from around Warsaw, from all over.  We went to Otwock, to that childrens home.  When we were there, a lot of them were sick, like even me.  I couldnt because of my sister, you know, I just
516
01:31:3.1
CE: So you were upset?
517
01:31:3.9
SZ: Depressed, depressed and sick.  I had ulcerative colitis and everything from them.  And now, so we were there to get clothes and food, but see, they were sending it from Canada, supposed to be in from America.  Food and clothes disappeared; it didnt come to us.
518
01:31:27.7
CE: What happened to it, do you know?
519
01:31:29.5
SZ: They were stealing it on the way.  They said it.  Its no good.  So they were telling all our friends and everything, The best thing would be for you, all of you, if you would go to Germany, because Germany had to give everybody and give food and everything, and at least you had enough food and a home.  So the thing is, you had to have money to go through, from Poland to Czechoslovakia, the borderillegally, you knowand pay them off here and there.  So thats how I, with the group, find out whos going which kibbutz.  So we went into Krakw.  There was a kibbutz.
520
01:32:14.3
CE: So you went to Krakw?  So how did you finance that?
521
01:32:17.8
SZ: We didnt.  We illegally went in the train, however you could, walked a little, do a little.  We didnt have money; nobody had anything.  So then we finally came, a group from all over.  Some wentyou know, went in the trains so nobody should see who they was and everything, because you didnt have the money; thats why it was bad.  So finally we went into Krakw, but Krakw was the kibbutz who has sent just away people to Germany.  So we had to wait around, you know, there; but at least they had some food.
522
01:32:57.6
CE: Okay, so they had just sent some people to Germany?
523
01:33:0.5
SZ: Yes, a group, you know.  So we waited six months till they got enough money from all overfrom United States, from other placesto get the kibbutz full, so they can pay off and bring the group into Germany.
524
01:33:20.1
CE: Okay, so you were there for six months.  And what was it like being there?
525
01:33:23.4
SZ: There it wasnt bad, because at least you had food; you know, they took care of you if you got sick or anything you wasyou know, whatever they could.
526
01:33:32.7
CE: And whatdid you have to work?
527
01:33:35.0
SZ: No, you didnt have to work.  The only thing that was bad: at night or whatever, you had to hide; you couldnt go out because the Polack werent good.  In factI dont know if you read itin Krakw they got together a bunch and killed plenty of them on the border.  But the Russians laterwe found they killed him.  So then they was better.
528
01:34:2.4
CE: So who was doing the killing?  Who was killing the Jews at that point?
529
01:34:5.2
SZ: The Polacks, those ones who didnt like why the Jews are alive.  Some were left, and the whole kibbutz was Jewish.  In factyou wont believe it.  See, some people dont know, but a lot of the nuns, when we were already in the childrens home, went out and brought back orphaned Jewish kids.  But they were hiding, and they didnt tell the priests or the thing because they were afraid.  They were hiding a few kids, too, and they brought them back because the parents brought them in.
530
01:34:43.7
CE: Okay, okay.
531
01:34:45.3
SZ: And they didnt even have any hair or anything because, you know, they were hiding, where nobody should see.
532
01:34:52.1
CE: So the nuns had hidden a lot of children.
533
01:34:54.2
SZ: A few, and some Polish, you know.  And then, of course, the Jews found outeven Israel, but there was no Israel, so they said let them save the kids and being here and there.  When they became Israel they took them to Israel, a lot of orphans, and they saved them.  And we were there doing whatever we could, you know, we were teaching [the kids] to read a little, to do a little, because most of the kids, even younger, couldnt read, couldnt write.
534
01:35:32.5
CE: And who was teaching this?
535
01:35:33.9
SZ: The older ones.
536
01:35:34.8
CE: The older ones, okay.
537
01:35:35.9
SZ: Yeah, you know.  And a lot of them came back from Russia because went there, too, you know, to be in charge in the kibbutz of saving and doing everything for the kids because most of themwhere the kids lived through, the parents werent alive, you know.  Most of them went to the gas chambers, you see.  When you tell people, they say, Oh, couldnt  What happened?  Over six million Jews, you know, in theand you know over 3,000 were Polish Jewsover three million.
538
01:36:15.2
CE: Three million, yeah.
539
01:36:16.1
SZ: Yeah, over three million.
540
01:36:17.1
CE: Almost three million, yes.
541
01:36:17.8
SZ: Yeah, were from Poland.
542
01:36:19.5
CE: Thats amazing, isnt it?
543
01:36:20.5
SZ: Yeah.  But thats why its a miracle.  But anyhow, after we were for a while, you know, in the six months they had enough money, so we went with the train to Czechoslovakia and they paid them off and they let the train go, you know, we came on the train.  So we came into Germany to Leipheim, you know, that
544
01:36:47.8
CE: Leipheim.
545
01:36:48.8
SZ: Yeah.  And when we came into Leipheim, the group, you know, that was in Germany alsobut it was free, you know.  The Hlftlinge, you could live there, stay there and everything.  But I had a cousin who was, you know, in the concentration camp someplace else.  But anyhow, every place he went from the same city (inaudible) he looked forbecause we were the only twins, you know, in the city and that was easier to do it, to write and to find out if anybodys alive.
546
01:37:30.0
CE: So your brothers still with you?
547
01:37:31.7
SZ: Oh, yeah, the whole time tillhe was always, since we lived through it.  So then the groupnow from there, we all went, like I said, to Leipheim.  And there we had enough food, enough everything, but you couldnt.  So my cousin looked and found out that we are the only twins alive.  So he was where Henry was, in that (inaudible) castle what they took over, thats how I came to.
548
01:38:2.9
CE: In the castle?
549
01:38:3.4
SZ: In the castle.
550
01:38:4.3
CE: Okay, so you went there to be with him?
551
01:38:6.3
SZ: No.  So he came to take us, me and my brother, of coursenot the group, and whoever wanted because they let that kibbutz being bigger.  And later, when they came Israel, they couldnt go there.  So he wasyou know, to take us and do it, and thats how we came to go to there, in Bamberg, not farthe castle.  And thats where
552
01:38:37.1
CE: And thats where you met your husband?
553
01:38:38.0
SZ: Yes.
554
01:38:38.7
CE: Now, I dont want you to tell me that story yet, because the two of you are going to tell us that story together.  But lets just see if theres any other things that you want to talk about before your husband joins you?
555
01:38:51.3
SZ: Well, I mean, after that, you know, like I said, I was after my sister sick.  I was in the hospital and everything, but at that time there wasnt any penicillinit wasnt here eitheror many medicines or you tried yourself.  But everybody talking, At least youre alive and you can bring families, and my brother, you know and everything.  I hadthey just tried to build me up, you know.  But we had nothing, no money, no notheverything from where, from nothing.  So it was very, very hard to live through when you had no home and nobody alive, nobody to do it, you didnt know what.  The only thing they were talking is the ones who came.  You know, it was not easy to leave.  (inaudible) we can move there.  And there you build up, you do everything.
556
01:39:55.8
CE: What impact do you think this whole experience has had on who you became?
557
01:40:1.5
SZ: A lot.  All my life I cant forget, and its a miracle that a person can stand it.  I dont think I could now, I couldnt.  I lived through, and to go through, its like not real.  You know, like its a dream and everything.  But you still lost everybody and did everything and had nothing, and you had to scrape and do and save.  And you know, one thing thats good, that my grandmother and my mother taught the kids the moment they got born how to live and what to do in life, otherwisesee, to do thefirst of all, not just that.  Anyplace you went, to donot just sit and wait until they serve you or give you, but do whatever you can to help out, to help everybody.  Thats how I did, even with my little sister or my brother or anybody.  Thats what it is.  But I didnt know anybodys alive, because they werent.
558
01:41:13.6
CE: Do you talk about this very often?
559
01:41:16.0
SZ: No, seldom.  But like I say, Shoah, and sometimes the kids like Haley, every time.  See this paper what he gave?  She has a copy; she had to write this and that.  If you get to know her, shes
560
01:41:31.2
CE: Id love to see her.  Does she know youre being interviewed now?
561
01:41:34.6
SZ: She heard something, but she said she wants aof course, when you get one she will make a copy.  And she will go a few time to the Holocaust [Museum], you know, to visit and they were all in the Washington, too.  You know, stuff like that.  And of course she is too young, but my other ones went to Israel onyou know Birthright, you heard about it?  He is billionaire, but he said he donates the money so all the kids should see what happened to Israel.  So wheneverthey have to be seventeen, eighteen to go, till theyre twenty-six.  So the two of them, Kelsey and Derekshe wanted to go, but shes not old enough.  But she said maybe she will go the March of Living.
562
01:42:31.8
CE: Oh, wonderful.
563
01:42:32.9
SZ: The March of Living is(inaudible) and I know a lot of my cousins went.  They go first to Poland and all over to the concentration camps, and then to Israel.
564
01:42:43.6
CE: Would you like to talk about it more, or is it?
565
01:42:47.4
SZ: Well, sometimes its very depressing, and sometimesyou know, its good that the kids should know.  Everybody should know, because one thing that should never, never happenand the one thing I said to the kids if they never live there, never go there, to Israel.  If there was an Israel they would be alive now, a lot of people, because I know no matter how bad it was, I had two cousins who went away just before the war started, to Israel, and the parents took their death.  They didnt want to know.  They were alive and they had kids and they had this.  See, thats what.  And I know one thing, my daughter everthey were law firm, a big one.  Every time they turned around, whenever they collected and they always needed, you know, to Israel or the kids.  Even Haley, the little one, (inaudible), she always collects and gives it.
566
01:43:56.8
CE: So is there anything else you want to say before your husband joins us?
567
01:44:0.5
SZ: No, I dont think anything.
568
01:44:4.3
CE: Okay.  Well, youve done a wonderful job of telling your story.
569
01:44:6.8
SZ: Well, its easy, because its the truth and its terrible.
570
01:44:11.9
CE: Yes.
571
01:44:13.7
SZ: Nothing you can do.  Wish we could.  Cant turn back.
572
01:44:17.6
CE: I know.
573
01:44:18.5
SZ: See, the thing is I read books.  I like to read and all this.
574
01:44:23.9
CE: Do you?
575
01:44:24.2
SZ: Yeah.  Even Herta [Pila] gave me like a set, Kristallnacht and (inaudible) and this and that.  I said to herand I knew from before, they could have ran away, and they did and came back, a lot of people.  Even my parents, right across the bridge and everything.  Nobody believed it, you know why?  Cause they thought World War I wasnt so bad with Germans.  They couldnt do it and everything.  Of course came in Hitler and everything.  And anytime, I can tell you, one thing it gets bad, they blame the Jews.  Why?  What theyin fact, even Poland when we were talking with a lot of Polish, they saidand the Jews were there and everything; the economy was good and everything; they were building up and all over.  I even read it when I was here in the United States when the Jews came in New York and all over.  See, they dont appreciate them.
576
01:45:29.0
CE: Do you ever feel anti-Semitism here?
577
01:45:31.8
SZ: Some, but you try to teach them and everything, like I said, not to even the kids.  I dont care if you are anything; the worst thing is if you start hating here or there or anything.  (inaudible) lives across, you know, shes a professor; and my daughter, like I said, has a big law firm.  She is a lawyer.  Who cares so long as they are nice people and theyre educated and everything?  It doesnt matter if you black, white or Catholic, Jewish; it doesnt matter.  Its the person, what you do.  But if you start hating and teaching the kids that, never.  Even, like I saidI think I told you that my son, we lived in a house.  Next door the boy was taught from the mother to hate because she was a Polish, but the husband was making most of the money with the Jews.  So she started, so he told her off and they started apologizing, this and that.  You dont teach the kids, because kids pick up bad things.
578
01:46:49.6
CE: So, your message is really to teach.
579
01:46:53.1
SZ: Yeah.  To teach, not to hate and not to do it.  And you know what else?  Maybe its us brought up or anything.  I hate it; it makes me sick when I see little kids abused.  Kids especially, because most of the kids went to the gas chambers.  And here they were lucky to have kids.  What they doing?  Abuse them.
580
01:47:18.4
CE: Yes.  Well, thank you very much for telling your story.
581
01:47:21.2
SZ: No, its the truth, I see it and everything.  They shouldnt do it, cause they should appreciate what they have and not hate, and then that doesnt matter.  We have here neighbors, you go talk to them. You see anyone, they very happy that we live here and everything.
582
01:47:42.6
CE: Wonderful, thank you very much.
583
01:47:44.2
SZ: Youre welcome now.
584
01:47:45.2
CE: Okay.
585
01:47:46.0
CE: This is tape three, and were here with Mr. and Mrs. Zyndorf.  And what we would like is for both of you to tell us about when you met.  Mr. Zyndorf, do you want to start?
586
01:48:1.6
HZ: Yes.  It was in 1946.
587
01:48:4.1
CE: Okay, and where were you?
588
01:48:6.6
HZ: It was in Asperg, outside Bamberg area; its in Bavaria.
589
01:48:12.2
CE: Okay, and what were you doing there?
590
01:48:14.4
HZ: No, we were on a kibbutz.
591
01:48:16.2
SZ: You were.
592
01:48:17.5
HZ: Yeah.  I was in the kibbutz, she came a little later.
593
01:48:19.9
CE: Okay, so you were in the kibbutz after the war?
594
01:48:22.9
HZ: Right after the war we created a kibbutz.  This was like a schloss, like a
595
01:48:28.0
SZ: Castle.
596
01:48:29.0
HZ: A castle.  What waswhat is?
597
01:48:33.9
SZ: Baron
598
01:48:35.2
HZ: Baron (inaudible).
599
01:48:37.5
SZ: Yeah.
600
01:48:39.0
CP: It was a German castle, is that right?
601
01:48:41.4
HZ: Right, a German castle; but, you see, he was in France.  He was in a campI mean, after the war they put him in a camp.  And the castle was empty so they gave itthe Americans gave it to us to occupy it.  We had a group of people that we started off with about fifteen, and then all of a sudden we got almost eighty people.
602
01:49:8.2
CE: Wow.  And what were yourwhat did you do during the day then?
603
01:49:10.9
HZ: Nothing.  We justwe had over there horses, we had cows, we had everything over there; and we had a big orchard with fruits and everything else.  And evenwe usedthey used to raise fish over there, too, carps.  So we had everything there.
604
01:49:27.8
CE: Okay, and how old were you at that point?
605
01:49:29.7
HZ: At this point I wasand this was 1946about twenty-one years old.
606
01:49:34.6
SZ: No, not yet.
607
01:49:36.3
HZ: No, thats what I was
608
01:49:37.1
SZ: Twenty-one when you came to the United
609
01:49:38.8
HZ: Not quite twenty-six.
610
01:49:41.9
CE: Okay.  All right.  And Mrs. Zyndorf, how did you get to
611
01:49:45.7
SZ: Well, like I said, I came into the kibbutz through Leipheim, Germany.  And in Leipheim, my cousin Herschel, he was with him in kibbutz and they lived there in the castle.  So he was looking for, you know, family and everything; he found the twins, me and my brother.  So he came and took us over there, me and my brother.  Of course otherwhoever wanted, thats where they headed.  And over there it was good because I was sick, because [I was] depressed from my sister, so I needed medicine and I need this.  And he was already known, so he could get medicine illegally, right?  All kinds, and even in the hospital
612
01:50:34.7
HZ: In Schlsselfeld.
613
01:50:35.5
SZ: Yeah, and all over, and he helped me.  And then, you know, I was there, and of course at that time there was no, like, love and everything.  He didnt have anybody; I didnt have anybody, except my brother.  So then, you know, weat the end of forty-six [1946] we got married.
614
01:50:59.2
CE: Okay.  So now I want to heardo you remember first meeting her, Mr. Zyndorf?
615
01:51:3.9
HZ: Oh, yes, when she came to the kibbutz, because I was in charge of everything then.
616
01:51:8.4
CE: You were? Okay.
617
01:51:9.3
SZ: He and a friend.  They were running it and collectingthey going into Bamberg, remember, to collect a lot of food?
618
01:51:15.5
HZ: This is just outside Bamberg.
619
01:51:17.0
CE: So you knew how to get illegal drugs and things?
620
01:51:19.9
HZ: Right, right.
621
01:51:20.7
CE: Pharmaceuticals and stuff like that?
622
01:51:22.0
HZ: Sure.
623
01:51:22.6
SZ: And he got to know the mayor of the (inaudible).
624
01:51:23.8
HZ: And she was in hospital, also in Bamberg.
625
01:51:26.1
CE: Okay, and so were you taken with her when you first met her?
626
01:51:31.7
HZ: From the beginning, yeah, sure.  But we got close because everybody was close to each other then.
627
01:51:40.9
SZ: Yeah, I was sleeping in a room with another friend; she went to Israel.
628
01:51:46.3
HZ: Shes in Israel.
629
01:51:46.8
SZ: And the friend had a boyfriend who was best friends with him; later they got married.
630
01:51:52.7
HZ: Yeah, Schleman.
631
01:51:54.0
SZ: So, you know.
632
01:51:55.5
HZ: They live in Netanyah.
633
01:51:57.1
CE: So did you start dating?  Does that
634
01:52:0.7
SZ: No.
635
01:52:1.8
HZ: There was not such a thing.  But like I say, we were there all together, and we just got together.
636
01:52:7.4
CE: So you would spend time together?
637
01:52:9.3
HZ: Right.
638
01:52:9.7
SZ: Yeah.
639
01:52:10.2
HZ: Thats all we had to do.
640
01:52:12.1
SZ: We got married Orthodox.
641
01:52:13.6
HZ: Food, there was enough food from everything we got.  We had like orchards, we had cows, we had this.
642
01:52:20.4
SZ: Yeah, but not just that.  You see, we were busy to, you know, sell most of it, whatever you could from the kibbutz, from the castle, to get money and send to Israel or here to buy (inaudible).  You remember, beautiful
643
01:52:41.0
HZ: We even got some (inaudible) and send them to Israel, from the Germans.
644
01:52:45.4
CE: Wow.
645
01:52:46.8
SZ: Sold everything you could, selling everything.  Whatever we couldnt sell, we chopped up.  We didnt leave nothing when he came over, even beautiful furniture and everything.
646
01:52:59.1
HZ: And the pianos.
647
01:52:59.8
SZ: Remember?
648
01:53:0.8
HZ: All destroyed.
649
01:53:2.1
SZ: Because when he came back, he made us all go.  After a while, but a lot of them went to the
650
01:53:8.5
CP: Oh, when the estate owner came back?
651
01:53:10.3
HZ: Yes, he came back from
652
01:53:12.5
SZ: They let him out from
653
01:53:13.3
HZ: From jail in France.
654
01:53:14.6
CE: Okay.
655
01:53:17.1
CP: And so he came back and there was 100 people living in his estate?
656
01:53:20.6
SZ: More, more.
657
01:53:21.3
CP: More than 100 people?
658
01:53:21.6
HZ: More than this, but the people left already because we knew already we were going to have to leave it.  So we went to Bamberg.
659
01:53:29.3
SZ: But a lot of them went to Israel illegally.  Believe me, they went through seaif you ever watched, and thats no story
660
01:53:37.5
HZ: Exodus [the 1960 film].
661
01:53:38.2
SZ: Exodus.  Thats more than true.
662
01:53:40.3
HZ: See, our friends
663
01:53:41.7
SZ: A lot of our friends from that kibbutz went.  In fact, they got married and she went first; when he came she was there.
664
01:53:51.0
HZ: She was already there.  (inaudible), you heard about it?
665
01:53:55.4
SZ: Yeah. And shes from Israel, and (inaudible) a lot of it
666
01:53:58.7
HZ: They were slaughtered by the Arabs.
667
01:54:0.7
SZ: We gave everything there.  But the thing is when we knew hes going to come back, he didnt deserve anything, destroyed so many Jews.  But whatever that could be sold, paintings, anything that you want to mention
668
01:54:17.2
HZ: When we went to Bamberg.
669
01:54:18.3
SZ: We made money and send everything.  Israel needed it.
670
01:54:22.2
HZ: In Bamberg we went into the city hall, so they gave us food stamps and some money, the Germans, already.  This was after the war.
671
01:54:34.2
CE: Okay.
672
01:54:34.9
HZ: And the one from the
673
01:54:41.8
SZ: The mayor.
674
01:54:42.4
HZ: from the city hall, the mayorthe mayor was not too bad because the actual mayor what was there at the end of the war wasnt there anymore, because they got rid of him because he was a Nazi.
675
01:54:53.9
SZ: The Gestapo.
676
01:54:55.1
HZ: But the new mayor was a lot better, so he helped us to get food stamps and this and that.
677
01:55:0.6
CE: Okay.  And so how long, then, were you there?
678
01:55:4.0
HZ: Oh, we were staying in Bamberg for four years.
679
01:55:7.6
CE: Four years.  So you got married in Bamberg?
680
01:55:9.9
SZ: No, we got married in the castle.
681
01:55:11.8
CE: In the
682
01:55:13.6
SZ: By Orthodox Jewish, by (inaudible).
683
01:55:17.1
CE: Did you have a ceremony?
684
01:55:18.7
SZ: Oh, sure!  I have pictures and everything.  See that, my cousin came; you know, I showed you.
685
01:55:24.8
CE: Thats right, you showed it to me.
686
01:55:26.5
SZ: He was a good photographer, but in black and white.  So he made pictures, he made
687
01:55:31.9
HZ: He lived the war in Russia; he was sent to Russia.
688
01:55:35.7
SZ: Yeah, he went to Russia.
689
01:55:37.4
CE: Were there a number of people who got married, who lived in the kibbutz?
690
01:55:39.8
SZ: Yes.
691
01:55:40.3
HZ: Oh, yeah.
692
01:55:40.9
SZ: A lot of them got married.  But listen, we had, like I said, really a big ceremonyyou know, outside under chuppah and this and all kinds of things, because of the Orthodox.  But a lot of them got marrieda few of them went, the wife went, we came, it was (inaudible)
693
01:56:2.7
HZ: (inaudible).
694
01:56:3.4
SZ: A few of them, who got to know this and that.  None of them had anything.  So this wasmost of the family werent alive, so why not?  So they went.
695
01:56:14.8
CP: How did you manage that?  From going to a concentration camp to then all of a sudden living in this castle
696
01:56:20.6
HZ: Youd be surprised.
697
01:56:21.4
CP: and married.  Were you happy, even though?
698
01:56:23.5
HZ: Youd be surprised how we would live through.  Nobody would believe it, what we went through.  From nothing, like even right after the war when we were liberated in Dachau
699
01:56:38.3
SZ: Buchenwald.
700
01:56:39.0
HZ: In Buchenwald, I mean.  So after the war we were right next to Weimar; and after the war we didnt have no clothes, but we got some underwear from the Americans.
701
01:56:51.4
SZ: I show the pictures, in the army (inaudible).
702
01:56:54.6
HZ: With the underwear we went to Weimar.
703
01:56:57.3
SZ: And then you got the army
704
01:56:59.4
HZ: Right, then we got the American army uniform.
705
01:57:3.3
CE: Wow!
706
01:57:4.3
HZ: Right.
707
01:57:5.4
CE: And did you have any clothes at this point?
708
01:57:7.5
SZ: No, whatever we could from the Russians; they gave and everything.  And of course, you know, like I say
709
01:57:14.0
HZ: Americans had everything.
710
01:57:14.9
SZ: Everybody shaved their hair not to get the disease, and they start taking baths and didntthere were lice.
711
01:57:21.9
CE: That must havedo you remember the first bath you got to take after?
712
01:57:25.0
SZ: It wasnt a regular bath.  Even in the castle you had to go in; you just took a big, you know
713
01:57:33.8
CE: Tub?
714
01:57:34.5
SZ: A pot with the bowls, the old fashioned, and washed off, you know.
715
01:57:39.1
CE: It still must have felt good.
716
01:57:40.4
SZ: Yeah, you said it.  With soap and clean, and the beds clean
717
01:57:46.6
HZ: It was a big castle.
718
01:57:47.4
SZ: I was teaching my little sister, when in the concentration camp: take off at night the clothes, wash it, hang it up, lay it on the bed, and next day put it on.
719
01:57:58.5
CE: Wow!
720
01:58:0.5
SZ: Youd be surprised.
721
01:58:1.4
HZ: But in Germany when we were in Asperg the Brgermeister, like the mayor, he was very good.  He wasnt a Nazi, because in the war the Nazis put him in jail, his whole family.  But after the war he became the mayor of Asperg.  And he helped us a lot.  He was at the wedding; we got the pictures here.
722
01:58:22.7
SZ: Yeah, he gaveyou know, brought stuff for the food and for this.  And besides that, you see, from where do you think the castlethe kibbutz exist?  They were going in every day toor was it once a week?to Bamberg in the Jewish center, you know, from the United States.  And of course, like I told you, just like happen like the childrens home, by the time he came it was gone; they stole it.  Whoever could, they sold it on the black market.
723
01:58:55.6
HZ: Even at the kibbutz over there, the Americans let us have a truck from there, and we had a German driver.  The mayors son was the driver.
724
01:59:11.1
SZ: Yeah, to go into there and drive.
725
01:59:14.7
CE: So on your wedding day, did you feel like this was starting a new life?
726
01:59:18.4
HZ: Oh, yeah, we knew this, but we just didnt know where we going to go.
727
01:59:22.5
SZ: Yeah, and what we going to have, what to support, this and that.  But when the Baron came back with the castle because he was freed by the Americans, we didnt have to stay in those, you know, those regular concentration camps, what they had in Bamberg.  We had athe Germans gave us a room with thein thereone room, you know.
728
01:59:49.6
CE: But it must have seemed like a castle.
729
01:59:51.6
SZ: Yeah, because for us at least you had everything, you didnt
730
01:59:55.5
HZ: You had where to stay.
731
01:59:56.6
SZ: You could go to the bathroom and we had where to stay, it was better.
732
01:59:59.7
CE: Wow!
733
02:00:0.2
HZ: It was on (inaudible).
734
02:00:2.4
SZ: Yeah.  It wasnt easy because you didnt have anybody; just my brother was with us.  But I hadmy daughter was born eleven months after we got marriedin November, in fact, and we got married in December.
735
02:00:20.0
CE: Okay.
736
02:00:21.5
SZ: You know.  So we didnt have much, and we managed.
737
02:00:24.6
CE: So tell me
738
02:00:25.4
SZ: Black market he was doing stuff.
739
02:00:27.2
CE: What kind of
740
02:00:27.9
SZ: You know, my
741
02:00:29.1
CE: The black market, yes.
742
02:00:30.0
SZ: My brother came back from the partisan and he didnt have any money.  We had a cousinan uncle, actuallyin Montreal, so he wanted to leave.  So he didnt have any money, he sold some fish on black market.  (inaudible) gave him the money.
743
02:00:47.4
HZ: Gave more of the money to
744
02:00:48.8
CE: Talk about the black market a little bit, how that worked.
745
02:00:51.5
HZ: No, this was all over.  But you see, everything was on food stamps, so if you could get something without the stamps, this was the black market.
746
02:01:0.8
CE: Yes, okay.
747
02:01:1.9
HZ: Nothingits not like money, but to just to buy stuff, like for food or for anything else.  And then you got the Americannot the regular dollars, but you had thefrom the army, script dollars.
748
02:01:18.4
CE: Yes, okay.
749
02:01:19.8
HZ: So thats what we were dealing with.
750
02:01:21.4
CE: So how did you figure all that out?
751
02:01:22.8
HZ: We did.  Dont be
752
02:01:27.5
SZ: You find out from others and then you
753
02:01:29.7
HZ: Yeah, thats right.
754
02:01:30.5
SZ: And bring it.
755
02:01:31.3
HZ: You feel theyou find out a lot of things.
756
02:01:35.1
CE: Because you had a business mind even then, so you could kind of figure it out.
757
02:01:38.8
HZ: Yeah, but you had to make a living, you had to live.
758
02:01:41.7
CE: Yeah, okay.  So youre living in one room and youre doing black market stuff, so its enough to make something to
759
02:01:49.4
HZ: Yeah, to make something.
760
02:01:50.5
CE: And you have food stamps and
761
02:01:53.6
SZ: At that time we had my daughter, but my otherthe son was born.  Theyre fourteen months apart, so I had two before we came to the United States.
762
02:02:6.1
CE: And youre still in the same room?  Still staying in the same room?
763
02:02:8.4
SZ: Yes.  And that was in Bamberg, remember.
764
02:02:12.0
HZ: Yes.
765
02:02:12.9
SZ: We didnt have anybody to take care or help or anything like (inaudible).
766
02:02:16.5
HZ: We had a friend (inaudible).
767
02:02:17.1
SZ: And there was no diapers; you had to wash them, you know, by hand, at that time, and boil the bottles.
768
02:02:24.9
CE: Did you have a sink?  Or where did you do?
769
02:02:27.2
HZ: No, there in Germany you had already
770
02:02:29.3
SZ: Yeah, in Germany we had a sink.
771
02:02:31.5
HZ: We had water running.
772
02:02:32.7
SZ: Yeah, by her.
773
02:02:35.2
HZ: They had (inaudible) and everything already there.
774
02:02:37.2
CE: Okay.
775
02:02:38.6
HZ: She had a (inaudible) what they were making.
776
02:02:43.1
SZ: You know, say like ice cream, cakes
777
02:02:44.3
HZ: Cakes.
778
02:02:45.1
SZ: You know, like that.  In fact she wanted him because she knew he can do it, to take it over
779
02:02:50.6
HZ: Yeah, she wanted to give the whole thing to stay there.
780
02:02:51.7
SZ: but we didnt want to stay.
781
02:02:54.6
CE: Who had this (inaudible)?
782
02:02:56.7
SZ: The lady who owned our building.
783
02:02:58.6
CE: Okay, okay.
784
02:02:59.5
HZ: In the house.
785
02:02:59.9
SZ: Yeah.
786
02:03:0.9
HZ: She want me to take it over because she was single with a brother
787
02:03:3.2
SZ: Yeah, she and her brother, they didnt have any kids or anything.
788
02:03:6.0
CE: And she knew you already knew some about the business, right?
789
02:03:8.3
SZ: Oh, yeah.
790
02:03:9.0
CE: Yeah.
791
02:03:9.5
SZ: So she want, but we didnt want to stay.
792
02:03:12.0
HZ: Frulein Kellner.
793
02:03:13.3
SZ: Yeah.  We just wanted, you knowwe stayed there till end of forty-nine [1949].
794
02:03:19.5
HZ: And at this time our daughter was already gettingshe was speaking perfect German and everything, and everything she wanted, she got it from her.
795
02:03:29.8
SZ: She was nice.  But the thing is, I didnt want to stay
796
02:03:34.6
HZ: No, we didnt want to stay.
797
02:03:35.9
SZ: because it reminded myself and everythingwe had a lot of friends who stayed but wanted
798
02:03:42.3
HZ: We still have friends in Frankfurt.
799
02:03:43.7
SZ: Yeah.
800
02:03:44.3
CE: Do you?
801
02:03:44.7
SZ: So we filled out papers, you know, to go from Germany to the United States.  I hadmy grandmother had a brother, and when the brother was a little boy he went to Canada.  He was in Montreal and he became a big doctor.  So anyhow, he helped out, too, so he sent papers.  But we didnt go to Montreal.
802
02:04:10.8
HZ: We had a friend over there in Germany.  He was the biggest builder in Germany after the war.
803
02:04:17.2
SZ: Yeah, but I didnt want to
804
02:04:19.0
HZ: And he died, when, about a year and a half ago.
805
02:04:21.6
SZ: And from there, we came to the United States.
806
02:04:25.6
HZ: When I came the first time to Munich, he was the head already there from the shul and everything.  Right away he gave me a (inaudible), and he said, Sit here and come with us to eat, and everything else.
807
02:04:43.3
SZ: No, but we stayed till end of forty-nine [1949] there.
808
02:04:46.7
HZ: No, but this was later when we coming back.
809
02:04:48.8
SZ: When we came to visit.
810
02:04:50.9
CP: So at that time, you had two kids, and your son must have been very young, right?
811
02:04:55.5
SZ: Yeah, one was.  When we left Germany, she was twenty-two [months] and he was about eight months, nine.
812
02:05:3.0
CP: So he was very young.  Did you
813
02:05:4.1
SZ: Two!
814
02:05:5.5
CP: Then you traveled
815
02:05:6.0
SZ: I got married when I was seventeen and a half.
816
02:05:7.6
HP: We traveled, but we had oneher brother, besides our friend, (inaudible) the Nazis  He was always with us.
817
02:05:14.1
CP: Oh, he came?
818
02:05:15.4
SZ: Friends when he was in concentration camp with him and everything.
819
02:05:18.4
HZ: I was with him in concentration camp.
820
02:05:20.5
SZ: So we came to Cleveland, and we sent the pay[ment] because to come to the United States somebody had to, you know, pay or sponsor anything, and they did.  So they sent for a lot of them.  A lot of them came to New York, a lot ofwe came to Cleveland.
821
02:05:39.6
CP: Did you know that you wanted to go to Cleveland, or was it because thatswhoever was the sponsor?
822
02:05:41.7
SZ: No, they recommend
823
02:05:43.5
HZ: They recommended it to you.
824
02:05:44.6
SZ: They send it to you and they are probably approved here
825
02:05:48.3
CE: So it was the Jewish center in Cleveland?
826
02:05:50.2
HZ: In Cleveland, the Jewish center.
827
02:05:52.4
CE: A lot of people have come to this area.
828
02:05:54.2
HZ: And you know who was the head over there?  It was the Ratners.  They were thethe Home Depots, they were in charge.
829
02:06:2.0
SZ: Anyhow we came to Cleveland and they found us a home.  We paid rentand everyone was Jewish in this housefor seventy dollars.  Now you dont get for seventy dollars.
830
02:06:16.4
CE: Wow.  So did you have a job when you got here?
831
02:06:18.7
SZ: No
832
02:06:20.2
HZ: The first job I got at the Ratners, Forrest City Lumber, like the Home Depot.  And there I was making already eighty dollars a week.
833
02:06:31.9
SZ: That was a fortune.
834
02:06:33.5
HZ: Was a lot of money.  And another thing what it was, we got the jobs and thereally, Americans couldnt get no jobs.  They came in there to work, so even for a days work, they had to give them fifty cents for breakfast.
835
02:06:46.8
SZ: Yeah, because they didnt have it.  At that time it was hard.
836
02:06:49.4
HZ: The company gave them fifty cents for breakfast.  This was in fifty-one [1951], fifty-two [1952].  It wasnt that good, but we complain here, now.
837
02:06:57.8
SZ: Well, now, but at that time nobody had foreclosures like now.
838
02:07:1.7
HZ: Right.
839
02:07:3.8
SZ: Anyhow, the thing is we were there and, like I said, moved in.  Then I took my brother in, of course, till he got married, for five years.  So we had the two kids and my brother, and he worked twenty-four hours and I took care.  But tried to save up
840
02:07:20.6
HZ: Two jobs.
841
02:07:21.7
CE: You had two jobs?  What was your other job?
842
02:07:23.6
HZ: A friend of mine at Lux Mendel bakery.  Lux, he was my friend from Germany.  So he says, Come to work to us in (inaudible) bakery.
843
02:07:38.9
CE: Okay.
844
02:07:40.7
HZ: This was the second job.
845
02:07:42.5
SZ: So he had two jobs.  And thats how we saved up the money.  And I bought a Frigidaire later, got rid of the icebox, a stoveyou know, a little at a time.
846
02:07:54.4
HZ: And Saturday night I was supposed to have off, so I went to another bakery to work to make extra twenty dollars.
847
02:08:0.4
CE: Did you?
848
02:08:0.9
HZ: Oh, yes.
849
02:08:1.9
CE: Oh, my!
850
02:08:2.7
HZ: Yes, yes.
851
02:08:3.5
SZ: Well, at that time, even my brother knew
852
02:08:5.8
HZ: We needed the money.
853
02:08:6.8
SZ: Everybody did, which is good. I wish now people should do it, be ambitious like it was before, because it doesnt come easy, no place.
854
02:08:17.2
CE: So how long were you in Cleveland?
855
02:08:18.9
SZ: Six and a half years.
856
02:08:20.4
CE: Six and a half years.  And how did you start your own bakery?  Talk a little bit about that.
857
02:08:24.9
HZ: Well, in Toledo there was a bakery for sale, and the
858
02:08:31.7
SZ: Wait a minute.  You have in Cleveland a little bit, a bakery in there.
859
02:08:34.9
HZ: I know, but this was not much.  But there we had a guy likehe was the head of the union.  And so he says, I got a bakery for you if you want to go there, and you can take it over.  Goodmans Bakery in Toledo.  I says, Okay, Im going to go.  And thats when we bought Goodmans Bakery.
860
02:08:54.3
SZ: It was a dump, in a bad, bad neighborhood.
861
02:08:57.4
HZ: It was a very bad neighborhood, and we were afraid to go out at night.  But the people what had business, nobody bothered you.
862
02:09:5.0
SZ: Even the (inaudible) and the colored, nothing.
863
02:09:7.2
HZ: On Canton Avenue.
864
02:09:9.5
SZ: So we moved there, and of course
865
02:09:12.9
HZ: And then we started the bakery, and we expanded.
866
02:09:15.9
SZ: We didnt have much, but we bought the house, forI dont know for $12,000 or something with the kids
867
02:09:25.0
HZ: (inaudible)
868
02:09:25.9
SZ: At that time you could buy a lot of things.
869
02:09:28.0
HZ: It was a big house.
870
02:09:29.1
SZ: Yeah, the old
871
02:09:30.7
HZ: And all of a sudden we were there a few years and we had to move out because everything changed.
872
02:09:35.0
SZ: Yeah.
873
02:09:35.7
CE: How did it change?
874
02:09:37.0
HZ: The neighborhood was a different neighborhood.
875
02:09:39.8
SZ: It changed.
876
02:09:41.1
HZ: It was getting bad.
877
02:09:42.4
SZ: So then we bought another house.  He savedI saved up some money and everything, you know
878
02:09:48.2
HZ: Built another one, on (inaudible).
879
02:09:50.9
SZ: Yeah.  And then he saved money and bought a lot and they built the bakery in that building in a strip for rent.
880
02:09:58.6
HZ: The strip is still there.
881
02:09:59.9
SZ: Yeah, still there.
882
02:10:1.1
CE: Now, when the two of youokay, when youre in Cleveland, do you talk about the Holocaust, or is it something?
883
02:10:8.7
HZ: Well, we never talked.  In the beginning we didnt want to talk to nobody about it.
884
02:10:12.9
CE: Did you talk to each other about it?
885
02:10:14.6
HZ: Yeah, but like I say, but we didnt wantbecause even the people what we worked, like the Ratners, they done a lot for the Israeli and for the Jews.  They give us the jobs all the time.
886
02:10:29.2
CE: But so you dont talk to anybody about it.  And why dont you talk about it?
887
02:10:32.6
SZ: Because we know at that time, we were just too
888
02:10:37.1
HZ: Too fresh yet.
889
02:10:39.5
SZ: You know, it would belike I said, I was sick and I hadI wind up in Cleveland Clinic.  I had ulcerated colitis from this, because of all finding out with this and that.  So even the doctor said dont do it
890
02:10:58.5
CE: Dont talk about it because it might make you sicker, feel worse.
891
02:11:0.9
SZ: Yeah, you want to get better.  And thats what we did, just, you know, do anything you could.  So then later, like I said, when we came into Toledo, there was a lot of Jews and everything, so I start changing and helping the kids to be real Jewish, belonging to synagogues and
892
02:11:23.6
HZ: The Jewish center.  We were going all the time.
893
02:11:26.0
SZ: Yeah, and the Jewish center and the Hebrew school.  They were going to teach them.
894
02:11:29.5
HZ: They were walking to school.
895
02:11:30.5
SZ: And then on top of that, you know, not just that, I kept a kosher home and everything, this and that, till we came here to live.
896
02:11:39.4
CE: So Mr. Zyndorf, did it bother you to talk about it at that point?
897
02:11:42.4
HZ: Still you didnt want to bring it up to start over again.
898
02:11:46.5
SZ: He was worse.
899
02:11:47.6
CE: You just wanted to start over?
900
02:11:48.9
HZ: Right.
901
02:11:49.4
SZ: Yes.
902
02:11:50.5
CE: Yeah.
903
02:11:51.1
SZ: And another thing: you see, most of themhe had a lot of friends there in Cleveland [who are] there still, and a lot of them who were together with him in concentration camp and a lot of them who were someplace else, and none of them wanted to remind themselves to it.  They wanted to stay away from it.
904
02:12:11.6
CE: Yeah, okay.
905
02:12:13.3
SZ: After a while everybody was saying, like, Show them; its not good the kids wont know, and the kids started to nag you and that.
906
02:12:23.0
CE: Did they?  Your kids started to
907
02:12:24.1
HZ: Oh, the kids started.  We want to know.
908
02:12:25.6
SZ: They wanted to know the life and they want to know this and that, where everybodyyou know, who we had.  And of course we took them for the trip, like my daughter and my son.
909
02:12:36.5
CE: When did you go on the trip?
910
02:12:38.5
SZ: Well, must beyou know, to show her and Louie and Bernice and all of them where its born.  They must be more than five years
911
02:12:46.5
HZ: No, to go back to Poland?
912
02:12:48.1
SZ: Yeah.
913
02:12:48.7
HZ: (inaudible)
914
02:12:51.5
SZ: We went ourselves a few times, but then later
915
02:12:53.7
HZ: But before, we went once.
916
02:12:54.8
SZ: Yeah, we went with them.
917
02:12:55.9
CE: But that was while you were in Cleveland that you went back to Poland?
918
02:12:59.1
HZ: No.
919
02:12:59.7
SZ: No, no.
920
02:13:0.3
CE: Its when you were here?
921
02:13:1.0
SZ: When we were in Toledo.
922
02:13:1.8
CE: Toledo, okay.
923
02:13:2.7
HZ: In Toledo.  We went
924
02:13:4.6
SZ: We went a few times.
925
02:13:5.7
HZ: To Auschwitz.  We went all over.
926
02:13:8.2
SZ: Yeah, to teach them.  They wantedthey nagged and everything, so we figured they are ready.  But really, all your life you cant forget, because things like that, to liveyou cannot.  You just somethingyou know, you saw it.  Asking how many dead did you see?  They were dying like flies and lying.  They had typhus.
927
02:13:34.2
HZ: In Buchenwald you had piles.  Right after the war they couldnt get rid of them, they couldnt burn them that fast.
928
02:13:45.3
CE: So what was it like to go back to Poland?
929
02:13:47.5
HZ: No, I didnt want tofrom the beginning I never wanted to go back to Poland.  But after so many years I just want to go and see whatsso I went back and I went to Auschwitz, because Auschwitz from us was only thirty kilometer.
930
02:14:1.5
CE: Wow, okay.
931
02:14:4.1
HZ: And I just want to see.  We had a lot of friends that before the war they used to come to our city.  The Jews were always getting together.
932
02:14:15.6
CP: Was it a difficult trip back?  Was it hard on you?
933
02:14:18.3
HZ: Oh, yeah, it was very difficult, but you didnt like it.
934
02:14:22.1
SZ: Yeah, but you see he was freed by the Americans, so he didnt want to go and he didnt go.  I went back right away; we lived there, and then we went to the childrens home right away.
935
02:14:32.8
HZ: Because right after the war from Buchenwald we had to choosewe could choose to go back to Poland or go here or go there.  I said, Im not going back to Poland, because I knew nobody was alive.
936
02:14:46.8
CE: Is that the reason?
937
02:14:48.2
HZ: Thats the reason.
938
02:14:49.4
CE: Did you worry about the anti-Semitism still?
939
02:14:52.0
HZ: You knewin Poland, you always have anti-Semites. Even today you have the same thing.
940
02:14:58.7
SZ: Yeah, but you knew people are talking
941
02:15:0.6
HZ: Right.
942
02:15:1.1
SZ: You told them in Krakow when I was waiting to go to Germany theyrehow many friends of ours got killed.
943
02:15:8.4
HZ: They kill you.
944
02:15:9.3
CE: Really?  At that point, by the Polish?
945
02:15:11.2
HZ: Yeah, and that was a little better.
946
02:15:12.9
SZ: After the war, sure.
947
02:15:15.1
HZ: The guy who was the head of the government what got killed; he was the best one.
948
02:15:21.9
CE: Its hard for me to imagine, like havingits almost like your country turned against you.
949
02:15:26.3
HZ: Right, the whole country.
950
02:15:27.4
CE: You know, its like your homeits your home and your country and
951
02:15:30.3
SZ: And living and helping them and everything.  Because of the Jews being there, it was better for them, wasnt it?
952
02:15:37.6
HZ: No, they took everything over.
953
02:15:38.9
SZ: They took everything.
954
02:15:40.4
HZ: And then when you went back, if you want to go and see something, dont even come to the house.
955
02:15:45.7
SZ: No, but what did I tell you?  The guy [said] Oh, his grandfather bought it.
956
02:15:50.4
HZ: Yeah, we went into one of the bakeries there.  Just our neighbors; we had a bakery and they had a bakery.  So I went into the bakery and they were still working there.  So I says, (inaudible) was here?  Oh, no, we bought the bakery from them.  How could you buy from him?  Hes dead.  The whole family is dead.
957
02:16:12.9
SZ: But they just lied.  The whole houses and everything they took over.  Whenever you went, you couldnt help it.  Only ones who got everything back is the Scandinavian countries, whoever was in concentration camp.  They were saving and saving a lot of people.
958
02:16:30.1
HZ: Right after Buchenwald we had a lot of people that was from Scandinaviafrom Sweden, from Denmark.  They went right back.
959
02:16:40.1
SZ: They got everything back.
960
02:16:41.1
HZ: They didnt have to ask them much.
961
02:16:43.0
CE: Wow.  Now, how did your children respond to going to Poland?
962
02:16:45.8
SZ: Well, they wanted to see.  They were depressed, and even Bernicelike, we went to see even the partisan.  Of course, I told them my brother was there.  They were crying and everything.  They didnt realize how bad it was.  But they wanted to see, you know, and theyre bignot little kids.  Thats why Haley didnt go, but she wants to go later on.
963
02:17:11.5
CE: So all three of your children went with you?
964
02:17:13.5
SZ: Yeah.  The bigger one, yeah.  The others, they wentin fact, you know, Sal was there before and everything, to Israel.  He went to everything.
965
02:17:24.4
HZ: Right.
966
02:17:24.9
SZ: Where the aunt lived.  Its good for them.
967
02:17:28.1
HZ: We have a lot of family in Israel.
968
02:17:29.9
SZ: Yeah, but the older one
969
02:17:32.5
HZ: A cousin, he was here already a few times.
970
02:17:35.0
SZ: Yeah, but a lot of them, you know, died out, too.
971
02:17:38.0
CE: Do your children like that you are being interviewed and talking about this?
972
02:17:41.9
SZ: Oh, yes, sure
973
02:17:42.8
CE: They think thats good?
974
02:17:43.6
SZ: because they want to have something for the future.  Like I told you, even myall of them, they couldthe one in Toledo or the one here, whenever it comes up, you know, like to collect money for Jews (inaudible).
975
02:17:58.7
HZ: My son is always
976
02:17:59.5
SZ: Becauseyeah, no matter what.  And I keep telling him
977
02:18:3.3
HZ: He was always
978
02:18:4.3
SZ: No matter what you do, you have to support Israel, as long as there is an Israel, even if you never go there or live there.  Theyll have more respect for you, and you have a chance to live.  You never know whats coming.
979
02:18:17.4
HZ: The same thing, like our son in Toledo; he is a lawyer.  But when the Russian Jews came over, he was the one helping them all.  He dont even take any money from them, he just help them.
980
02:18:30.0
SZ: Yeah, a lot of them did come.
981
02:18:31.4
HZ: With legal things, with everything here today.
982
02:18:32.9
SZ: Of course, he knows what that means to us.
983
02:18:36.0
CE: Now, when did you move to Tampa?
984
02:18:38.5
HZ: Eighty-two [1982].
985
02:18:39.9
SZ: Well, my daughter, with her husband and the (inaudible) here, nagged and said, Its cold.  What for you need it?  Because we wantedif we come, we said we go to the east coast because there I have a lot of friends, but we came here because they were
986
02:18:54.2
CE: Because your daughter was here.
987
02:18:55.4
SZ: Yeah, was here with her husband, you know.  She hadwhen you come here, even if she was for a long time lawyer and everything; but here you had to take the bar, so she was just a secretary, you know, and this and that.  But then later, you know, she took over and everything.  So she said, Come, come, so we did and we came.
988
02:19:17.9
CE: And what was that experience like?
989
02:19:20.3
SZ: Not so good.  He doesntsee, I was at that time about fifty-one or fifty-two and he was in the fifties.  He said, I cant walk around like this, so he opened a store.  So he opened a bakery.
990
02:19:36.6
CE: Here?
991
02:19:37.2
SZ: Yeah.
992
02:19:38.4
CE: Where was your bakery here?
993
02:19:39.7
SZ: Right here in Carrollwood, way back where K-Mart was, you know.  Well, now its a
994
02:19:45.5
HZ: Home Depot is there.
995
02:19:46.5
SZ: Home Depot.
996
02:19:47.2
HZ: Not Home Depot, Lowes.
997
02:19:48.8
SZ: Lowes.
998
02:19:49.6
CE: Lowes.
999
02:19:50.1
SZ: It was a K-Mart.  You know where Lowes is?  There was a K-Mart.
1000
02:19:54.0
HZ: Right, the whole
1001
02:19:55.7
SZ: So he set up, andsee, cause he was used to it, we were used to it.  Twenty-four hours theyre open in so many stores, and the workers were like from Europe.  They could work twenty-four hours, you didnt have to worry.  And here, I was the dishwasher and the cleaning and everything because they disappeared.  My daughter started to yell, Give it up! so we did.
1002
02:20:19.8
CE: How long did you have your bakery here?
1003
02:20:21.3
SZ: About four years.
1004
02:20:22.7
HZ: Four years, something like this.
1005
02:20:24.4
SZ: Yeah, you ask, even (inaudible) will tell you.  A lot of people say, oh, theyre missing us because of the bread in the bakery, but not so good.
1006
02:20:37.7
CE: Yeah.  So you retired at that point?
1007
02:20:39.3
SZ: Yeah.
1008
02:20:39.8
HZ: Yes.
1009
02:20:40.9
SZ: At that time we didntwe had a home, and before we bought it in Northdale, and then we built this one.
1010
02:20:51.8
CE: So youve been retired a long time now?
1011
02:20:53.7
HZ: Oh, yes.  Its okay.
1012
02:20:55.9
SZ: Well, he doesnt believe me.  He didnt retire like that.  You know what he did?  Tell them, tell them!
1013
02:21:1.2
CE: What did he do?
1014
02:21:1.9
SZ: When he retired from the bakery, he didnt have patience just like that, so he went into Alessisyou know Alessis?
1015
02:21:13.0
CE: Yes, I love that store.
1016
02:21:14.3
SZ: So what havingso what
1017
02:21:16.6
HZ: I went there to buy, and
1018
02:21:17.5
SZ: He was a buyer at Alessis
1019
02:21:19.5
CE: When it was the big Alessis?
1020
02:21:21.4
SZ: Yeah.
1021
02:21:22.0
HZ: No, this was the same Alessis
1022
02:21:23.6
CE: That was so wonderful.
1023
02:21:24.9
HZ: Right, right.
1024
02:21:25.7
CE: The big one.
1025
02:21:26.2
SZ: So he went in and all the
1026
02:21:27.6
HZ: I was running the whole thing.
1027
02:21:28.8
SZ: Of course the recipes, he was making coffee cakes and bread.
1028
02:21:33.5
HZ: Till today I go in and I get whatever I want.
1029
02:21:36.2
SZ: Well, you know, like ingredients
1030
02:21:37.5
HZ: I go into the officenot to the office, to the warehouse and everything.
1031
02:21:41.3
SZ: Yeah.  See, the ingredients you cannot get unless you go to wholesale place.  So thats where he goes.
1032
02:21:48.6
1033
02:21:51.7
HZ: A few years.
1034
02:21:53.3
SZ: Oh, at least was a few; it must be seven, eight, whatever.  He said, Oh, Im tired, so hes done.
1035
02:21:59.4
HZ: Then I gave it up.
1036
02:22:0.2
SZ: But Alessis was mad he quit.
1037
02:22:2.9
HZ: Yeah, Phil Alessi was
1038
02:22:4.1
SZ: If a baker came in, he would tell them how to make babka and breads and this and that.  So thats what he did.  But its good to
1039
02:22:13.1
HZ: In Toledo we had a big bakery, not just bread but everything.
1040
02:22:16.9
SZ: Well, you were shipping.
1041
02:22:18.2
HZ: We had a lot of people.
1042
02:22:19.1
SZ: Shipping everything.  But then the thing is, its good to be busy, not just to sit down.  Dont lay there.  Because he wentfrom the Holocaust hes volunteering.
1043
02:22:32.0
CP: At the museum?
1044
02:22:33.9
SZ: Yeah, the one inwas the one
1045
02:22:36.6
HZ: In Clearwater.
1046
02:22:37.0
SZ: The thing that I dont like
1047
02:22:38.5
CE: In Clearwater, the Jewish family?
1048
02:22:40.4
HZ: Yeah.
1049
02:22:41.4
SZ: But theyre in St. Pete, mostly.
1050
02:22:43.5
HZ: No, this is Clearwater.
1051
02:22:45.1
SZ: It is?
1052
02:22:45.6
HZ: I come.
1053
02:22:46.9
SZ: Oh, I thought it was
1054
02:22:48.2
HZ: It is Clearwater.
1055
02:22:49.5
CE: And what did you do when you volunteered?
1056
02:22:51.4
HZ: No, we justall the survivors took
1057
02:22:54.3
SZ: From Russia, from here
1058
02:22:55.7
HZ: We help out like other ones.  We have to just discuss when somebody needs something
1059
02:23:0.7
SZ: When they
1060
02:23:1.9
HZ: When they need this or that. And we try to get the money for them.
1061
02:23:5.3
CE: Okay.
1062
02:23:6.2
SZ: But theres a lot of them, Russia
1063
02:23:7.5
HZ: We get the money from Germany or Switzerland.
1064
02:23:9.4
CE: Okay.
1065
02:23:10.2
SZ: To the wife and everything, because theres a lot of Russians who dont have Social Security.
1066
02:23:15.3
HZ: Right.
1067
02:23:16.2
SZ: You cant live on it, but it helps, you know.
1068
02:23:18.4
CE: Yes, it does.
1069
02:23:19.4
SZ: But they dont get Social Security, they dont get nothing.
1070
02:23:22.9
HZ: We have a meeting again November 9.
1071
02:23:25.9
SZ: The ninth, yeah.
1072
02:23:26.7
CE: So, youre going to that?
1073
02:23:27.1
HZ: Right.
1074
02:23:29.2
CE: So how do you think the Holocaust influenced your relationship, for example?
1075
02:23:35.3
SZ: Well, it helps.  The main thing is when you go to different (inaudible), its good they open because the kids go, you teach the kids and all of them, theyre keeping up.  But if you ever went to Washington, its everythingof course our picture and our names are there, but from everybody.  The kids went to visit.  Of course I have kids who live therewell, at Johns Hopkinsso they said they went in there and theyre really keeping it up a lot.
1076
02:24:11.0
CE: Mr. Zyndorf, how do you think living through the Holocaust influenced you?
1077
02:24:16.2
HZ: You know, you would never would want to go through [it], but we went through [it].  I dont know, a miracle or something, whatever happens
1078
02:24:23.7
SZ: But you cant forget as long as you live.
1079
02:24:25.7
HZ: Never forget.
1080
02:24:26.4
SZ: Never.  Because something I had once with my granddaughter in Toledo, a talk.  She was watching the Exodus and everything, so she say, Oh, the school made me write a book or do a page or something, from the story.  So while Im bringing this up, so she said, I hate it.  Its not true, its (inaudible).  So I said
1081
02:24:53.5
CE: Wow!
1082
02:24:54.5
SZ: What?  I show you pictures.  Its all true.  And thiswhatever you see, its nothing to compare.  So she saysand then, while Im bringing up, she saysoh, we go outside and she sees bugs crawling around.  I said, You better spray it (inaudible).  So she says, What, are you afraid of a little bug?  I said, I lived with the dirt and with the bugs.  You couldnt believe it.
1083
02:25:21.9
HZ: But take a look how she changed when she went to Israel.
1084
02:25:24.0
SZ: Yes.
1085
02:25:25.0
HZ: And shes still going backshes in Israel already, she has rooms and everything there, but she came here for a couple months.  But shes going right back.
1086
02:25:36.8
SZ: Now shes going back.  She loves it.
1087
02:25:38.8
HZ: But she found out.  What a shame all over.
1088
02:25:44.3
CP: Does it help to be married to somebody who can understand your experience?
1089
02:25:48.1
HZ: Oh, yes, it means a lot.
1090
02:25:49.5
SZ: A lot of our friends, yeah, most of them got married because a lot of their husbands died.  But you see, I bring upI had my twin brother living with me the whole time, and now, till today, we never had in my life a fight.  Like I see a lot of them who have brothers or sisters or families or even parents, once in a great while they see them or talk to them.  I said, You dont know what you are missing.  Thats the worst thing, cause he said it himself: we wish he would have somebody, but he doesnt.  But hes close to the family of ours.  One thing thats with me, maybe because we were like that brought up, but were very, very close.  My nieces and nephews or anything, they would give everything, and the same thing with us.  Very close, no matter, and they all educated, not like us.  They are doctors, lawyers, and everything.  But I can call them, or they will call if I hear that somebodys sick, or he will call them up, and hes a really a genius doctor (inaudible).  And now theres other two who are young, Lily and Seth.
1091
02:27:7.8
CE: Can I ask you how you feel about Germany now?
1092
02:27:10.9
HZ: Germany has entirely changed; its not the same Germany.  Its not the Germany what we knew.
1093
02:27:17.1
SZ: She [Chancellor of Germany Angela Merkel] is very nice to Israel.  She is veryshe helps out, shes sending a lot more money and doing and everything.  Depends who.  The other one wasnt so good; this one
1094
02:27:30.4
HZ: Merkel, shes terrific.
1095
02:27:31.9
CE: So its fair to say that you have better feelings toward Germany then toward Poland?
1096
02:27:33.8
HZ: Its entirely different; its not the same.  You cannot be anti-Semite in Germany because they put you in jail.
1097
02:27:42.1
SZ: But anyhow they much better in fact
1098
02:27:44.6
HZ: Right, thats the law there now?
1099
02:27:45.6
SZ: Now.  See, they put in the money.  I wasnt there and I didnt see it.  But now two years ago they opened in Berlin a synagogue withmade like a
1100
02:27:56.2
HZ: A whole section.
1101
02:27:57.2
SZ: Yeah, like a museum
1102
02:27:59.0
HZ: And the government paid for everything.
1103
02:28:0.1
SZ: Its like a museum, and they paid.  And they helping out much better.  She said and everything that shes sorry, and they all are.  The younger generation is better; they read it and (inaudible), you know.  Now, not like the young ones
1104
02:28:16.6
HZ: Because they teach them about it.
1105
02:28:17.6
SZ: who was a long time [ago]; they went with Hitler right away.
1106
02:28:21.0
HZ: They teach in the school the Holocaust.
1107
02:28:23.7
SZ: Yeah, and they teaching them and everything, and thats good.
1108
02:28:26.9
HZ: Its entirely changed, what we went through.
1109
02:28:30.4
SZ: Yeah.
1110
02:28:32.2
CE: And how do you feel about the United States?
1111
02:28:34.5
HZ: Everything is okay, but a lot of things changing too much here.
1112
02:28:40.0
CE: In what way, do you think?
1113
02:28:41.5
HZ: In not a good way, because everybodyits good, its free, but you cannot be like this going around and shooting and killing people for nothing.
1114
02:28:53.0
SZ: I hateI would never touch in my life a gun.
1115
02:28:55.5
HZ: They have a gun, they shoot.  They dont ask questions; they shoot first and then they are going to ask questions.
1116
02:29:1.5
CP: And all the divisions, people are dividing themselves.
1117
02:29:4.3
HZ: Right, right.  Thats whats bad about it.
1118
02:29:6.6
SZ: I never saw so much fear.
1119
02:29:8.3
HZ: They should be more together.
1120
02:29:9.7
SZ: And care for each other.  How can you go kill a person?  Its like (inaudible).  The only thing that I hope [I] live long enough to see that they finish up in Afghanistan and Pakistan.  Maybe well be better in the United States and all over, because the money goes there. You know what Israel said, even all of them, we knew them all. We saw the picture there I have.  Its a waste of money; its never going to work.  You know, French were there and the Russians were there, and nobody can win with Arabs.
1121
02:29:47.1
CP: Yeah, were not learning from our mistakes.
1122
02:29:48.6
SZ: Theyre killing each other.  Theyre killing each other.
1123
02:29:50.5
HZ: Right, right.
1124
02:29:51.3
SZ: See, thats what people dont understand.
1125
02:29:53.9
HZ: Even [Charles] de Gaulle, he said not to bother with it.
1126
02:29:57.6
SZ: And they are throwing out billions [of dollars], not millions.
1127
02:30:0.7
CP: Yup.
1128
02:30:2.5
CE: Do you have any final questions?
1129
02:30:4.7
CP: I think we covered everything.
1130
02:30:6.3
CE: Pretty much?  Is there anythingyou want to leave a final message for the audience?
1131
02:30:10.5
SZ: No.
1132
02:30:11.3
HZ: Just to get rid of the hate, thats all.
1133
02:30:13.9
SZ: Thats all.  And I dont care, like I said.  That I would like to see for the kids sake, not for us.
1134
02:30:20.7
HZ: Too much hate going around.
1135
02:30:21.8
SZ: I dont care if youre black or white, or youre Catholic or Protestant or a Jew.  Doesnt matter.  Youre a person.
1136
02:30:30.7
HZ: Youre a live person.
1137
02:30:32.0
SZ: Youre a person.  Why could you hate another?  Thats what I would like to see, for the grandchildrens sake.  For us, it doesnt matter anymore; its too late. But for the kids, who knows?  You hope, and you can just hope, thats all you can do.
1138
02:30:47.5
HZ: If you get rid of the hate, you going to live entirely better.  Like the Scandinavian countries, you go there and you feel entirely different.
1139
02:30:56.2
SZ: You talk to them and everything, its not like this.
1140
02:30:59.9
HZ: We were there many times.
1141
02:31:2.8
CE: Well thats a lovely message to leave at the end of the tape.
1142
02:31:5.1
SZ: Yeah.  It is, and its true.  That would be the best thing.  Look at neighbors, so most of them
1143
02:31:14.5
HZ: They were all good neighbors.
1144
02:31:15.6
SZ: One is Catholic, one is priest, one is Jew, it doesnt matter.  We can go to
1145
02:31:19.2
HZ: Yes, the neighbor what you saw there, what she just left.  She was in Israel for eight months and she loves to go back.
1146
02:31:27.4
SZ: And shes not Jewish, but she loved it, shed go back.  The other ones, and the others are (inaudible) Jewish.  It has nothing to do with the people.  Who cares what your religion is?
1147
02:31:36.6
CE: Well, we would like to thank you very, very much
1148
02:31:39.1
HZ: Youre welcome.
1149
02:31:40.0
CE: for being a part of it.
1150
02:31:40.5
SZ: Oh, no.  Listen, thank you for doing it.  And like I said, the kids will be surprised when you give them the
1151
02:31:47.2
CE: Wonderful, wonderful.  Were glad to be a part of it.
1152
02:31:49.9
HZ: Were going to make copies of it.
1153
02:31:51.5
SZ: Yeah, you said they will make it, but either way.
1154
02:31:55.2
HZ: Just send one, they will make it.
1155
02:31:56.3
CE: All right, thank you very much.
1156
02:31:58.0
SZ: Make ready for you.
1157
02:32:0.6
CE: You have to take this off; dont forget.
1158
02:32:2.4
SZ: Oh, yes, yes.