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William Dorman oral history interview
h [electronic resource] /
interviewed by Michael Hirsh.
Tampa, Fla. :
University of South Florida Tampa Library,
1 sound file (32 min.) :
digital, MPEG4 file +
e 1 transcript (17 p.)
Concentration camp liberators oral history project
This interview was conducted as research for The Liberators: America's Witnesses to the Holocaust / Michael Hirsh (New York: Bantam Books, 2010).
Interview conducted December 29, 2008.
The Liberators: America's Witnesses to the Holocaust (New York: Bantam Books, 2010) and Concentration Camp Liberators Oral History Project, University of South Florida Libraries, 2010 Michael Hirsh.
Transcripts, excerpts, or any component of this interview may be used without the author's express written permission only for educational or research purposes. No portion of the interview audio or text may be broadcast, cablecast, webcast, or distributed without the author's express written permission.
This is an oral history interview with Holocaust concentration camp liberator William Dorman. Dorman was a combat correspondent with the 84th Infantry Division, which liberated Ahlem and Salzwedel, both sub-camps of Neuengamme, in April 1945, though Dorman was only present at Ahlem. He was with the second group of soldiers that went into the camp and spent a few hours there. He did not have the chance to talk to any of the survivors since they had all been evacuated before he got there, but he did speak with some German civilians. Before the army, Dorman had been a reporter for the Boston Herald-Traveler, and he wrote several stories about the war, all of which were published. Seeing Ahlem affected him very deeply, which he discusses in this interview.
Infantry Division, 84th.
Infantry Division, 84th
v Personal narratives.
Ahlem (Concentration camp)
World War, 1939-1945
World War, 1939-1945
World War, 1939-1945
World War, 1939-1945
World War, 1939-1945
World War, 1939-1945
Personal narratives, American.
World War, 1939-1945
Crimes against humanity.
University of South Florida Libraries.
Holocaust & Genocide Studies Center.
University of South Florida.
Special & Digital Collections.
Oral History Program.
Holocaust & genocide studies oral history projects.
Concentration camp liberators oral history project.
y USF ONLINE ACCESS
xml version 1.0 encoding UTF-8 transcript segment idx 0 time 00:00:0.4 text Michael Hirsh: Okay, your name isyou go by Bill or William? 1 00:00:4.8 William Dorman: Bill. 2 00:00:6.1 MH: Bill Dorman, D-o-r-m-a-n. 3 00:00:8.0 WD: Right. 4 00:00:8.7 MH: And youre at and your phone number is 5 00:00:10.7 WD: Right. 6 00:00:11.5 MH: Whats your birth date? 7 00:00:12.6 WD: May 9, 1918. 8 00:00:14.9 MH: Okay. Â And you were in the 84th Infantry Division. 9 00:00:21.9 WD: Right. 10 00:00:22.8 MH: Which unit? 11 00:00:23.5 WD: I was a correspondent. Â I got into the divisionId been trying to get overseas, because they had me on a newspaper up at Fort Devens. Â I didnt want to spend the war at Fort Devens giving out newspapers. Â My brother was a friend of this general, Bolling, Alexander Bolling. Â And I heard that, if you volunteered as a medic, they would take you overseas, so I did volunteer. Â I was out at Camp Grant, Illinois, which is the medic training center, and I appealed to my brother to pull some strings with Bolling to get into his division. Â And he was great. Â He was gracious, very gracious, and I had a lot of great experiences with him. Â I covered the Rhinethe Ruhr River crossing, which was quite an event. 12 00:01:34.9 MH: So, you were a combat correspondent to the division? 13 00:01:37.2 WD: Right. 14 00:01:37.9 MH: So, you didnt go over as a medic at all? 15 00:01:41.5 WD: No. 16 00:01:42.4 MH: Oh, okay. Â Just to tell you a strange coincidence, I was the editor of the newspaper at Fort Sheridan, Illinois, when I got pulled and went to Vietnam as a combat correspondent in the 25th [Infantry] Division. 17 00:01:57.6 WD: In the 25th Division, huh? 18 00:01:59.2 MH: Yeah. Â So, where had you grown up? 19 00:02:2.3 WD: Well, I grew up partially in (inaudible). Â After my fathermy father died when I was fifteen or sixteen, Ive forgotten which. Â And after he died, the war was coming on, and I enlisted, I volunteered, and thats when they sent me up to Devens. Â Now, they outfoxed me, cause I never thought I was gonna go to Fort Devens. Â I never even gave it a thought. Â I thought Id be in the army then, but I wasnt. Â But anyway 20 00:02:41.4 MH: Yeah, so 21 00:02:42.6 WD: Igo ahead. 22 00:02:44.1 MH: When did you go overseas? 23 00:02:45.4 WD: Uh, let me check with Ginny; she knows dates better than I do. Â Ginny? Â (no response) Well, Ill have to 24 00:02:59.0 MH: Thats okay. Â When she comes back, you can ask her. Â But you get overseas, and then where do you go? 25 00:03:4.9 WD: We were overseas. Â We landed in Greenock, Scotland: thats where the ship docked. Â The English took us by train, and we went down to Winchester. Â And the reason Iwhen I looked out the train window and saw that we were in Winchester, I thought, Well, this is going to be easy, cause all I have to do is ask for my brothers address. Â They knew right away that I was in Winchester. Â And we stayed there, oh, I guess for about a month or so, and then we went over to Normandy and landed on Omaha Beachnot on D-Day. Â But when we landed on Omaha Beach, they gave us rations of ammunition. Â And we went from there up by truck convoy up to the Siegfried Line, which was right on the edge ofthe city was Palenberg, Germany. Â 26 00:04:18.7 We went into combat at Palenberg, and we were teamed with the British 30th Corps. Â They took half the city and we took the other half; I guess that was the way it was set up. Â And our casualties were very heavy. Â Altogether, I think we lost about 4,000 mennot all in that one engagement, obviously, but 4,000 was, I think, was the figure. Â And I had tremendous experiences there. Â They sent me up to the front most every day. Â There was a guy named Harry Johnson. Â He never got near the front. Â I dont know why, but he never did. 27 00:05:19.0 MH: Were you just carrying a pencil and paper, or were you also shooting pictures? 28 00:05:24.3 WD: No, I had a photographer, Maurice Miller. Â I wanted to get in to see him, but he died, oh, a couple years ago. Â So, Im one of the few left. 29 00:05:40.2 MH: Yeah. Â So 30 00:05:42.0 WD: Go ahead. 31 00:05:43.4 MH: At that point, youre with the 84th Division? 32 00:05:46.2 WD: Right. 33 00:05:46.9 MH: Okay. Â What do you know, if anything, about concentration camps or the Holocaust at that point? 34 00:05:53.3 WD: Well, at that point our intelligence told us we were gonna come across the camp at Ahlem. Â So, at that point, I had to show some correspondence at the camp. Â It was not a death camp, except that it was a death camp in that there were a hell of a lot of guys that died there. Â But when we went up to the barbed wire surrounding the camp, I looked at these peopleI thought they were children, but they werent. Â Theyd just shrunk so. Â 35 00:06:42.3 So, we got into the camp. Â I was supposed to take Bernie McQuade of the Chicago Daily News. Â He wanted to see it, but after he saw a couple of bodies on the ground, he said, No, I cant do it. Â Youll have to go in and tell me about it. Â So, I went through the camp. Â TheyIve forgotten how many weI think they said it was close to 550 [people] in the camp, but there werent 150, because there were only a few of them left alive. Â There was a white-haired gentleman with a girl, his daughter, outside the camp, and he was very hard on us. Â He saidhe ordered this gal to help, cause they were gonna clean out the barracks. Â They were gonna set the barracks on fire. Â And to make a long story short, we 36 00:07:54.4 MH: Dont make it short. Â Tell me as much detail as you remember. 37 00:07:57.4 WD: We talked to this guy, this civilian who was apparently the boss of the camp. Â He wanted to know what we were going to do with it. Â And the lieutenant, who was really ticked off at his attitude, said, Well, I think well just turn em loose. Â And he [the civilian] said, You cant do that. Â And he said, Why? Â He [the civilian] said, Because theyll kill us. Â [The lieutenant said] Â Oh, you killed a lot of people anyway. Â We got that all settled, and they were taking the guys out and putting them on stretchers. Â We found probablyoh, there must have been about twenty or thirty left alive when we got there. Â But there werent any guards, because they would havethe guards fled. 38 00:09:3.7 MH: The person who was standing outside was a local German civilian? 39 00:09:6.7 WD: Yeah. Â Yeah. 40 00:09:8.0 MH: And he was concerned that these people who were barely alive were gonna try and kill them? 41 00:09:12.8 WD: Right. 42 00:09:13.7 MH: Okay. Â How do you react like something to that? 43 00:09:16.5 WD: Well, theyIve forgotten how we reacted, because I had to take correspondence back to our headquarters. Â There was quite a bit of publicity on the camp. Â What I should do, I should give you the pictures that we took, that my photographer took. Â My photographer was great, a guy named Maurice Miller. Â And there was one guy that washe didnt make it. Â He died, but he was eating out of a bowl of soupit wasnt soup; it was just water. Â And he wasit was obvious he wasnt going to make it. Â So, whats his name from the Chicago Daily News, he said, Bill, take me back. Â I cant stand seeing any more of this. Â And this was really ait was a work camp; it wasnt a death camp as such. 44 00:10:39.4 MH: Right. 45 00:10:40.5 WD: So, the division took Hannover, and this camp was on the outskirts of Hannover. Â Then we got up to the Elbe River, and of course all our officers, everybody wanted to go for Berlin. Â We got a wire from our conversations with Eisenhower saying to stop on the banks of the Elbe River; we were allowed to send out patrols, and strength was the phraseology. Â But there was, for as far as you could see, the Germans were surrendering. Â God, there were thousands of them. Â 46 00:11:34.5 Maurice Miller, my photographer, and I got across the river on a boat, and we went around to the German troops, pointing at a bushel basket, telling them to put their pistols there. Â We all got a bunch of pistols. Â But then, when we got back to the other shore, all our guys grabbed the pistols, so we never got any. Â But the Germans were surrendering and there were absolutely thousands of them. Â And also, there were some women that had taken all their clothes off and held their clothes over their heads and swam across the river, because they were terrified of falling into the Russian hands. 47 00:12:25.8 Im trying to remember anything else. 48 00:12:34.3 MH: What 49 00:12:35.3 WD: Go ahead. 50 00:12:36.0 MH: Lets just go back to Ahlem for a minute. Â How long do you think you spent at Ahlem? 51 00:12:40.5 WD: Oh, I spent probablyaltogether, probably three or four hours. 52 00:12:49.4 MH: Yeah. Â Were you able to talk to any of the survivors? 53 00:12:53.1 WD: No, because they pulled all ofall of the ones that were that sick, they pulled them out of there right away. 54 00:13:2.3 MH: How long 55 00:13:4.9 WD: I want to tell you 56 00:13:6.1 MH: Yes? 57 00:13:6.9 WD: TheyI cant remember now. Â Im goddamn old myself. 58 00:13:14.3 MH: Yes. 59 00:13:15.6 WD: But it was 150: our intelligence said we were supposed to find 150 in the camp. Â But when we got there, there were only about fifty that were left alive. 60 00:13:34.8 MH: Okay. 61 00:13:36.3 WD: And they got them out of there as soon as they could. 62 00:13:39.6 MH: Were you there with the first bunch of guys who went in? 63 00:13:41.9 WD: No, I was in theI would say probably the second, in the second wave. 64 00:13:53.1 MH: But they organized the evacuation, then, pretty quickly. 65 00:13:56.8 WD: Yes, they did. 66 00:13:58.1 MH: Do you know where they were taking them? 67 00:14:0.4 WD: I dont know where they were taking them. Â They were taking them towell, yeah, they were taking them to one of the evacuation centers, which was a place where they got food because they issued a warning to us, all of us, that said, Dont feed these people, because youll kill them. Â And so, we just 68 00:14:27.3 MH: Right. Â What were you thinking about when youre seeing this kind of thing? Â And youd seen combat, but youd never seen something like this. 69 00:14:35.4 WD: Yeah, I never saw anything like that. Â And your reaction was, How the hell could a human being do this to another human being? Â It was absolutely horrible that they treated these people withthey were literally skeletons, they were skin and bones. Â And this was not a death camp. Â This was a work camp. 70 00:15:3.7 MH: Right. 71 00:15:4.3 WD: They didntI think [there were] aviation parts on the ground, or something like that. 72 00:15:8.8 MH: Yeah. Â Well, I mean, it wasnt an extermination camp. 73 00:15:10.8 WD: No. 74 00:15:11.5 MH: But there was plenty of death. 75 00:15:12.4 WD: There was plenty of death, and they worked everybody until they were gonna die. Â No problem. 76 00:15:22.0 MH: Yeah. Â How didafter you saw that, did it change the way the soldiers treated German prisoners? 77 00:15:27.9 WD: We treated themfirst, let me go back to the Malmdy massacre, which 78 00:15:39.4 MH: Okay. 79 00:15:40.2 WD: The Malmdy massacre, they killed an awful lot of our guys. Â They herded them into a field. Â It was about 100, 150 or so of them, and then they turned a machine gun on them. 80 00:15:57.1 MH: Right. 81 00:15:58.1 WD: And they killed them. Â After that, you couldnt get a prisoner alive. Â They killed most of thethey killed an awful lot of the prisoners. 82 00:16:19.3 MH: Right. Â How did the word about the Malmdy massacre get around? Â Was it in Stars and Stripes? 83 00:16:25.5 WD: I cant remember whether it was Stars and Stripes that printed the story of the Malmdy massacre or not. Â But the word got around very quickly. 84 00:16:35.5 MH: Yeah. 85 00:16:36.6 WD: And after that, they didnt take any prisoners. 86 00:16:40.0 MH: Was there ever anybodyan officerto step forward and say, Well, wait, the Geneva Convention says this, that and the other thing, and you cant do that? 87 00:16:47.1 WD: No. Â No, there wasnt. 88 00:16:49.4 MH: Okay. Â Did seeing what you saw at Ahlem have any long-term impact on you? 89 00:17:2.1 WD: On me? Â Yes, it did. 90 00:17:4.9 MH: Tell me about that. 91 00:17:6.7 WD: Well, I couldntI had a hell of a hard time reconciling myself to the idea that we should take prisoners. Â And I was entirely sympathetic, cause the line company didnt bother with it. Â For example, I remember one towards theit was after we got up into Hannover. Â I pulled the jeep over on the side of the road. Â Some guythis German, he must have been fifty, sixty years oldcame up, put his hands up. Â But I had a driver who was a first class jerk, and he wanted to kill him. Â I said, Youre not gonna kill him while Im here, Ill tell you that. Â This guy has never fired a shot. Â You take him back to the prison pool back in the lines, and if I hear that this guy was killed, youre gonna get court-martialed. Â I was furious at that, because this guy was pitiful. Â He obviously had never fired his rifle, and he was hiding in a cellar, and he came out when he saw us coming up from the rear. Â 92 00:18:42.8 Bolling was very proud of the division, because Hannover was Germanys twelfth city, and for Bolling to capture that city was great. Â We had three objectives after they crossed the Rhine. Â There was HannoverMnster, Hannover and Berlin. Â Well, Mnster fell to an airborne division before we got there. Â We got up to the Elbe River, and we got the radio message from Eisenhower to stop there and not try to take Berlin. 93 00:19:36.8 MH: Yeah. 94 00:19:38.1 WD: We were allowed to send out patrols, but that was all. 95 00:19:40.9 MH: Were the Russians already on the other side of the Elbe when you got there? 96 00:19:45.1 WD: Not when we got there, but right after we got there, they were there. Â And it was funny because Bolling, I think, asked one of the Russiansonly one Russian could speak English. Â I think Bolling asked him if he had any problem with rape, and he said, No, we have no problem. Â We rape. 97 00:20:8.8 MH: (laughs) Nice. 98 00:20:12.3 WD: And if you read [Cornelius] Ryans book on the fall of Berlin, there wasnt a single female in Berlin that was not attacked. 99 00:20:26.1 MH: Hmm. Â It sort of explains why the Germans were running to get away from the Russians. 100 00:20:34.4 WD: Yeah, they were running hard. 101 00:20:36.7 MH: What was your rank at that point? 102 00:20:38.9 WD: My rank? 103 00:20:39.6 MH: Yes. 104 00:20:40.4 WD: Sergeant. 105 00:20:41.1 MH: You were a sergeant. 106 00:20:41.7 WD: Yeah. 107 00:20:42.3 MH: Three stripes? 108 00:20:42.9 WD: Yeah. 109 00:20:44.0 MH: Okay. Â When didwhere were you when the war ended? 110 00:20:50.2 WD: Uh, we were infirst we were in Salzwedel, which was on the banks of the Rhine. Â Then they moved us down to Heidelberg 111 00:21:3.8 MH: Salzwedel wasnt that far from Ahlem. 112 00:21:7.9 WD: No, it wasnt. 113 00:21:9.6 MH: Okay. Â Did you see the camp at Salzwedel? 114 00:21:13.1 WD: Oh, yeah. 115 00:21:15.8 MH: The womens camp? 116 00:21:17.5 WD: Not the womens camp, no. Â No, it wasthey were all men in the camp that we freed. 117 00:21:25.2 MH: That was the camp at Ahlem. 118 00:21:26.5 WD: Yeah. 119 00:21:27.2 MH: Right, but there was another camp at Salzwedel. Â Did you see that one or not? 120 00:21:30.7 WD: I didnt see that one. 121 00:21:32.1 MH: You didnt see that one, okay. 122 00:21:32.9 WD: No. 123 00:21:33.3 MH: So the war ends, V-E Day happens, and where are you? 124 00:21:38.1 WD: In Heidelberg. 125 00:21:44.1 MH: In Heidelberg. Â Okay. Â And then how long before you come home? 126 00:21:49.0 WD: Well, I had so many points that they transferred me into the 30th [Infantry] Division, which was down in Nuremberg. Â And the 84th came down: they had to play them in football. Â I went over to see my old commanding general and he said, So, would you like to come home with us? and I said, Yes, I would. Â Thatd be great. Â So he transferred me from the 30th Division into the 84th at the end. 127 00:22:24.9 MH: And youhow long before you were out of the army? 128 00:22:30.3 WD: Well, I had some friends who were politicians, and theythey said they heard my name broadcast on the PA system at Camp Kilmer. Â It turned out to be a guy that used to be on the Fort Devens paper. Â So, he said, Bill, I can give you a tip. Â I can give you a delay en route, which means you can go home any time you want, and you can report for discharge. Â Its the best deal, because otherwise you may hang around for a long time at Devens, which was the discharge point. Â So, I took advantage of that and went home. 129 00:23:26.3 MH: Okay. Â What did you do in civilian life once you came back? 130 00:23:31.3 WD: I got my old job back. Â I was a reporter on the old Boston Herald, which went out of business. Â Im trying to think of any others. Â No, I didnt do anything else. 131 00:23:51.6 MH: Yeah. Â Did what you had seen in the war ever come back up and bother you once you were back home? 132 00:24:0.0 WD: It bothered me to the extent that I couldnt believe what I had seen. Â It bothered me that there were some Germans that I liked a lot who were prisoners, and they were working for us. Â This was in occupation. Â And I just couldntI could never warm up to them. Â I couldnt believe that human beings could treat people like that. 133 00:24:38.6 MH: Were these the people who would say, We didnt know what was happening. Â Nicht Nazi, that sort of stuff? 134 00:24:44.1 WD: Yeah. Â Yes. 135 00:24:45.5 MH: Yeah, nobody was a Nazi. 136 00:24:47.4 WD: (laughs) Nobody was a Nazi. Â You couldnt find a Nazi after the warI mean, after the war was over. 137 00:24:55.5 MH: That would tend to make me a little crazy, because most of the camps, anybody in the area knew they were there. Â They had to smell it, they had to see it. 138 00:25:9.5 WD: Oh, yeah. Â Yeah, absolutely. 139 00:25:14.9 MH: But did you ever write about it for the paper? 140 00:25:19.8 WD: I wrote them about fifteen storiesno, a little less than that. Â This was when the division was fighting its way up to the Rhine. Â I wrotemost of the stories were on page one of the Herald. Â I got out of the army and went right to work for the paper. 141 00:25:54.3 MH: Yeah. Â But after the war, when you were working for the paper, did you ever, you know, write any reminiscences of your war experiences? 142 00:26:2.4 WD: No, all of the stories I did on the war were published in the paper. 143 00:26:15.1 MH: Okay. Â When did you get married? 144 00:26:19.0 WD: Nineteen fifty. 145 00:26:22.1 MH: And you have children? 146 00:26:23.6 WD: Two children: a girl, who lives in Newcastle, which is right outside of Portsmouth. Â And then I have a son, and he is a business consultant. Â He lives in Quincy. 147 00:26:54.6 MH: Um 148 00:26:55.7 WD: Go on. 149 00:26:57.0 MH: Did you ever, you know, go over and talk to school kids or anybody else about what youd seen? 150 00:27:3.3 WD: No. Â I tried on one occasion. Â One of my granddaughters was in elementary school, and she wanted me to give a talk. Â And I choked upI couldnt. Â Just the memory of Ahlem was enough to set me off. Â I was very emotional about that, and I think probably everybody that went, because the guys that were in the divisions that took the concentration campsI mean, the pictures were horrible. 151 00:27:43.0 MH: Right. 152 00:27:45.7 WD: Have you talked to any of those people? 153 00:27:47.8 MH: Ive talked to many people who were at the bigger concentration camps as well, yeah. Â How did you know Maurice Miller? 154 00:27:56.6 WD: When they transferred me into the division as a correspondent, we hadI was assignedI got him as a partner. Â There were six of us, one for each regiment. Â And we took turns going up to the front, getting stories or taking correspondents. Â Most correspondents had no desire to get up to the front. 155 00:28:30.3 MH: Okay. Â You said you still have the photos that your photographer took? 156 00:28:40.3 WD: I have copies that werethey were copies. Â Id be glad to send them to you. 157 00:28:49.8 MH: Id appreciate that, and Ill scan them and send them back to you. Â Do you have a picture of yourself from World War II? 158 00:28:56.9 WD: Uh, I dont think so. Â Maybe Ill ask Alice. Â Ill have to ask my wife. Â I cant remember. 159 00:29:8.1 MH: Okay. Â And what about a relatively recent photo? 160 00:29:10.2 WD: Oh, I canIve got a couple of photos that were taken up at Fort Devens. Â Im not very proud of that, but you know. Â Drove me crazy, because I wasI only have one eye and I shouldve known better, but I wasnt gonna get very far in the army with one eye. 161 00:29:35.0 MH: You only had one eye? 162 00:29:36.4 WD: Well, yeah, one good eye. 163 00:29:37.7 MH: And they sent you into combat. 164 00:29:39.5 WD: Yeah. Â Well, the reason they did is because the general was a friend of my brother. Â And he asked me: he said, Do you want to go overseas with us? Â And I said, Yes, very badly. Â So, thats what happened. 165 00:29:55.6 MH: How did you lose an eye? 166 00:29:57.6 WD: Well, I was just born with a bad eye. 167 00:30:0.4 MH: Oh, okay. Â Would you like me to send you an envelope, a photo envelope, so you could send me the pictures? 168 00:30:7.3 WD: Yeah. Â Its going to take me a while to find them. 169 00:30:11.0 MH: Okay, theres no rush. 170 00:30:12.0 WD: Yeah. Â You live in 171 00:30:15.2 MH: I live in Florida. 172 00:30:16.2 WD: You do live in Florida. 173 00:30:17.6 MH: Yes. 174 00:30:18.3 WD: Youre writing a book? 175 00:30:18.8 MH: Yes, Im writing a book. Â Itll be published in early 2010 by Random House. Â As I said, at this point Ive interviewed more than 160 guys. 176 00:30:30.2 WD: Great. 177 00:30:31.4 MH: The book really sort of covers the last six weeks of the war, when the Americans were liberating camps, you know, almost every day. 178 00:30:39.6 WD: Yeah. 179 00:30:40.8 MH: But 180 00:30:42.9 WD: You must have a wealth of experiences from that. 181 00:30:46.6 MH: The conversations have been very, very interesting. Â And it also makes it easier to talk to the guys, because I was a combat correspondent in the army in Vietnam. Â And I was also imbedded with the Air Force in Afghanistan to write a book. 182 00:31:4.7 WD: Great. 183 00:31:6.7 MH: So, I was with the Air Force at the end of 2002. 184 00:31:9.5 WD: Okay. Â You let me know when theyre gonna be published, cause I 185 00:31:14.3 MH: You will get a copy. 186 00:31:15.4 WD: Great. 187 00:31:16.2 MH: You will get a copy. Â Ill send you an envelope for the photos, and therell be a release form in there for you to sign that lets me use them. 188 00:31:22.8 WD: Okay. 189 00:31:24.1 MH: Okay? Â And if you could look for a picture of you from the war and then a current picture, thatd be great. 190 00:31:28.9 WD: Okay. 191 00:31:29.9 MH: Okay. Â Thank you very much, Bill, I sure appreciate it. Â Have a happy New Year. 192 00:31:34.1 WD: Thank you very much. 193 00:31:35.4 MH: Right. Â Bye-bye. 194 00:31:36.3 WD: Bye.
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