Charles W. Arnade oral history interview

Charles W. Arnade oral history interview

Material Information

Charles W. Arnade oral history interview
Series Title:
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project
Arnade, Charles W
Hewitt, Nancy A., 1951-
University of South Florida Libraries -- Florida Studies Center. -- Oral History Program
University of South Florida -- Tampa Library
Place of Publication:
Tampa, Fla
University of South Florida
Publication Date:
Physical Description:
1 sound file (84 min.) : digital, MPEG4 file + ;


Oral history. ( local )
Online audio. ( local )
Oral history ( local )
Online audio ( local )


Charles W. Arnade, professor of International Studies at USF since 1961, recalls the first two decades of the university's history: changes in academic programs, relations between faculty and administrators, and the Charlie Johns Committee.
Recorded Aug. 21, 1985.
General Note:
Description based on CD version record.
Statement of Responsibility:
interviewed by Nancy Hewitt.

Record Information

Source Institution:
University of South Florida Library
Holding Location:
University of South Florida
Rights Management:
All applicable rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier:
624473205 ( OCLC )
U14-00002 ( USFLDC DOI )
u14.2 ( USFLDC Handle )

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Arnade, Charles W.
Charles W. Arnade oral history interview
h [electronic resource] /
interviewed by Nancy Hewitt.
Tampa, Fla. :
University of South Florida,
1 sound file (84 min.) :
digital, MPEG4 file +
e 1 transcript (28 p.)
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project
Description based on CD version record.
Recorded Aug. 21, 1985.
Charles W. Arnade, professor of International Studies at USF since 1961, recalls the first two decades of the university's history: changes in academic programs, relations between faculty and administrators, and the Charlie Johns Committee.
Arnade, Charles W.
v Interviews.
2 610
University of South Florida
x History.
University of South Florida
7 655
Oral history.
Online audio.
Hewitt, Nancy A.,
University of South Florida Libraries.
Florida Studies Center.
Oral History Program.
University of South Florida.
Tampa Library.
i CD version:
Arnade, Charles W.
t [Charles W. Arnade].
w (OCoLC)52645397
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project.
4 856


C O P Y R I G H T N O T I C E T h i s O r a l H i s t o r y i s c o p y r i g h t e d b y t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a L i b r a r i e s O r a l H i s t o r y P r o g r a m o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d o f T r u s t e e s o f t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a C o p y r i g h t 2 0 0 7 U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a A l l r i g h t s r e s e r v e d T h i s o r a l h i s t o r y m a y b e u s e d f o r r e s e a r c h i n s t r u c t i o n a n d p r i v a t e s t u d y u n d e r t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e F a i r U s e F a i r U s e i s a p r o v i s i o n o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o p y r i g h t L a w ( U n i t e d S t a t e s C o d e T i t l e 1 7 s e c t i o n 1 0 7 ) w h i c h a l l o w s l i m i t e d u s e o f c o p y r i g h t e d m a t e r i a l s u n d e r c e r t a i n c o n d i t i o n s F a i r U s e l i m i t s t h e a m o u n t o f m a t e r i a l t h a t m a y b e u s e d F o r a l l o t h e r p e r m i s s i o n s a n d r e q u e s t s c o n t a c t t h e U N I V E R S I T Y O F S O U T H F L O R I D A L I B R A R I E S O R A L H I S T O R Y P R O G R A M a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a 4 2 0 2 E F o w l e r A v e n u e L I B 1 2 2 T a m p a F L 3 3 6 2 0


DR CHARLES ARNADE Hewitt : t I am speaking this afternoon with Charles Arnade, Professor of International Studies and History, as part of the USF Silver Anniversary Oral History Project Most people I have started off by asking them what their first contact was with USF, but you were in the Florida State system before you came to the University of South Florida Could you tell me, first of all, what your role was in the state university system in the 1950's and how you first heard about USF and its development? Arnade : t I came to Florida in 1952 I got my Ph .D in 1955 I started out in the system, as we called it in those days, as graduate teaching fellow That title doesn't exist now I guess you call it adjunct Then after I got my Ph .D in 1955, I went to FSU There was a year in between in which I didn't go to FSU because in that year it was very difficult to find a job I taught at the University of Tampa for a semester and a half, commuting from Gainesville to Tampa Then I stayed here for awhile Then I went to FSU and I stayed at FSU until '57 or '58 In the meantime I had a visiting professor job from Iowa for a semester Then I went back to Gainesville because FSU did not have a very good international, Latin American program Then when USF was founded, President Allen was vice president (at UF) He carried a certain amount of faculty to USF I was at Emory with that group of faculty I was very much involved in political aspects, especially in the civil rights movement We had joined the NAACP in the early stages That was illegal at that time When Senator Johns became acting governor at the death of Governor McCarty, he announced that he would fire anyone who was involved in the civil rights movement He demanded a list of NAACP professors of three universities at that time NAACP didn't release the


2 list, but obviously he got it out This is the way I got involved in the process Those were ugly days of civil liberties Obviously, we looked for politicians in those days who were more liberal Nobody could campaign in those days on the basis of integration They wouldn't have made it That's where I became a socialist Leroy Collins then became Govenor, and that is when I met Gibbons, who was in the state legislature Then there was talk about establishing a new university in the south because of three universities, so I got involved in this, so I observed the legislative action that eventually led to the University of South Florida I had no intention of joining the University because I liked the University of Florida It had fantastic library resources for my research and I was still strictly a Latin Americanist at that time Now I am going in all directions Finally when the University of South Florida was founded, I decided to come over here It was a very hard decision to make because they didn't have any research material At that time, it's not so obvious anymore, there was a strictly quota system on promotions The Board of Control, what is now called the Board of Regents, had the quota system There was so many percentages up to a full professor and so many percentages to an associate professor Gainesville was top heavy I had just published a book that won a prize, but my dean, who later became chancellor, Mautz, the academic dean told some of us that there was no hope for promotion because of the quota system, even if we won the Nobel Prize You know you have to leave or wait till your time came He then had a list where our standing was in terms of This was for associate professor I was pretty far down I mean in the middle, but still depending on how many would die and how many would retire So on that basis, President Allen took advantage of this and looked at what he considered promising people who were


standing in line and said, "If you come with us, then obviously you will get associate professorship ." It wasn't in so clear terms That's when I came over here Hewitt : t When you arrived, fairly shortly after that, you came into contact with Charlie Johns again when the Johns Committee came to USF Arnade : t Let me make a footnote on this thing I was not here the first year I had the dubious distinction and if you look at the personnel records, this had been a constant hassle with me because I was the first one to get a leave of absence before I arrived over here There were alot of technical problems The University would get off the ground before all this was straightened out I actually signed the contract over here I had accepted a visiting professor at the University of Iowa I was frustrated being in the middle of this thing so I played all angles When I came over here and I asked the man who became dean who became my boss, Cooper, he said, "Well, don't you take it and we will give you a leave of absence because we don't really need to teach Latin American History the first year ." So I got a leave of absence You see, the personnel here always goes down to the pay period .Hewitt : t So you were a charter faculty on a leave of absence your first year? Arnade : t That's right Hewitt : t So in '61, then, when you actually started teaching here Arnade : t I had the appointment I was involved in all three Charlie Johns investigations Hewitt : t What a distinction 3


4 Arnade : t That's a distinction, yes When I was in FSU, he came to FSU He was looking for racial he was strictly looking for people he considered that integration was equal to communism Then when I was in Gainesville the second time, he had gotten by accident on a new profitable ground which he didn't know anything about He found a professor who had been involved in the civil rights movement who was a homosexual So he dropped this thing that integrationists are communists and said that this had something to do with sex This sounds fantastic So he went on a homosexual look in Gainesville I had nothing to do with it As far as I remember, I wrote a letter to the student paper or something like this and said that Charlie Johns had suddenly found a new evil and that put me back into this thing One of my mentors, while I was still working on my Ph .D ., who I had consulted with was the chairman of the Geography Department at the University of Florida He was fired He was one of the victims of Charlie Johns So everybody that was associated with him was suspected I actually was never called before the committee I was contacted by his prosecutor and given the riot act for doing this kind of thing and saying that my job was in jeopardy, but they did not call me in Then when I came back here Charlie Johns came a third time over here, and I was called before the committee a third time By that time they knew me and they were very His prosecutor and the senator, or they called him governor at that time, was cordial to me and as a matter fact, in the early '70s when I went through Starke where he had his office, I stopped by and we had a nice chat about the old days I saw the office of Charlie Johns and decided to park there I walked in the office and there was They still called him governor He had a vague memory of me and we talked about it We never


5 mentioned anything The prosecutor and the lawyer for Charlie Johns, one of which is still living in St Petersburg, I haven't seen for years Once in awhile when I see him As a matter of fact we had a drink four or five years ago in the University Restaurant I don't know what happened to him Hewitt : t How much of an impact did the Johns Committee hearings have here since USE had just opened and was brand new and might be more vulnerable? Arnade : It had a tremendous impact on the young faculty Basically you can say that the first two-year faculty, when the Johns Committee came in '61, about 25% came from the old system and the other came from the outside Cooper brought alot from the University of Minnesota They were shocked by all these things The Gainesville gang were already seasoned by them so we didn't feel anything, but it brought a tremendous amount of weariness and the fights in the first five years for civil liberties were very intense Unfortunately, I have to say that President Allen didn't provide any leadership in this matter Hewitt : t You had been involved in civil rights activities in Florida since the '50s Was there any sort of civil rights activity on campus in those early years? Arnade : t No, not really on the campus This is a question of controversy I discussed this with Troy Collier the other day which I think the Black Affairs Committee ought to take up Was this University integrated or was it not integrated? Some of the black faculty now insist that it was not integrated Some of the old timers insist that it was integrated I don't know whether you ran into this question or not Troy Collier thought that some of us people should get together and finally get this thing


6 straightened out The answer is yes and no on both sides Both sides are right The University was open This was basically a commuter university Very few lived in the dormitories Now I really cannot remember having seen a black student when I arrived the day of the inauguration of the campus My memory is extremely weak There were students and I guess that can be historically proven into the records They were not permitted to live on the campus So both sides are right There was only partial integration There was really no great The student body at the beginning, the white student body, was ultra conservative and they reflected that at that time At no time The faculty was far ahead of the students on that issue The few faculty members who wanted to organize something like this didn't have the support of the students and obviously didn't have the support of the administration The administration never marches for any kind of issue There was one remarkable affair, and I didn't have anything to do with it because I was away when that happened That is when they boycotted the University Restaurant I did not participate I was away on this That, in my mind, was the only really public display A very interesting thing happened around '63 which I was deeply involved in along with Peter Wright, who is not here anymore He is retired and lives in Claremont An international incident happened at that time in Moscow where black African students at the Lamumba University had a demonstration against the Soviet government This was the first kind of thing to happen This is well known in the annals of history Obviously, the issue was extremely embarrassing to the Soviets who immediately suppressed this Within 48 hours the students did protest because they felt that the African students were treated as second rate students The issue happened over dating Some African students began to date Russian girls and


7 they were beaten up by Russians Many of these Africans were expelled or fled to the west and some of them were brought to the United States by the American Friends Service I was very active in the American Friends Service The American Friends Service were looking for two or three universities in the south where they could place these students So you see, the southern universities are even better than Moscow If my memory is correct, they did send somebody to Duke or North Carolina and they selected our University because they had heard that our University was integrated from the very beginning Integration didn't really take place until the Civil Rights Act So American Friends Service contacted me because I had been like a They didn't know anything about the University of South Florida I was very enthusiastic about this thing because this would make tremendous public relations for us Professor Peter Wright, who was my neighbor, was very interested in this thing All expenses paid but the conditions were that that student should live in the residence halls Before we went to see President Allen, being already involved in politics, we went to talk to the editor of the Tampa Tribune The Tampa Tribune at that time was sometimes supporting us and sometimes not supporting us It was a conservative paper and they considered, in many cases, that we were a hot bed of radicals For example, a professor read poetry over there, and they considered the poetry pornographic and there was alot of hassle over that and the Tampa Tribune had accused us of using dirty poetry and all these kinds of things Sometimes they were On the Charlie Johns Committee they had their heart in the right place There was also an evening paper I happen to know people in the Tampa Tribune Holmes Alexander, for example, who now writes editorials We knew each other from the Gainesville days The afternoon paper was the ultra conservative paper


8 at that time So I went downtown and talked to the editors and I said, "If this thing blows up, will you support us?" They said that they would support us As a matter of fact, they said that they would send someone to the airport, they would write a big story, and this would be great for the University of South Florida Anybody who was a segregationist and ultra conservative would take that issue This looks like "Alice in Wonderland" today So we wanted to see President Allen on that issue, and he said that this wasn't the time for this We felt that we had lost a tremendous opportunity to make international news At that time, as you can see, the residence halls were not integrated That is an incident that is totally forgotten because basically only two professors were involved in this thing There was Peter Wright and myself Peter Wright is no longer We tried to play it very cool We didn't want to stir anything up We wanted to first have the newspaper and then the president When we found out that the president didn't give us his support the issue died If it would have come controversial immediately American Friend Service would have not sent them to the U .S anyhow, because if they had been Haitians they would have said to forget it and they would have sent them someplace else You might not have ever heard that story Hewitt : No, I never did Let me ask you a little about the actual set up of USF at this point academically Most people that I have talked to seem to have had appointments in at least two different divisions or programs When you came in, were you in the College of Basic Studies? Arnade : t No, I was strictly in History I put down there that I was Chairman of History Department which is really not true There was no chairman That didn't exist until the middle '60s Cooper was very insistent that this


a J University should not become old fashioned where each department had a little turf He would turn over in his grave now if he saw what was happening He appointed coordinators, but they were not even listed at that time You were simply a Professor of Social Science or Liberal Arts In the very early stages, the first time as I might have told you, the coordination in '61 Hayward They didn't want it We threw a coin Up you win, down This is exactly the way it was There was a tremendous struggle going on with Cooper of being able to use our own stationary That became a very, very difficult issue He would not let us use the History Department or the Political Science Department So I can't tell you exactly the date when we won that battle So I was coordinator The Anthropology Department started off with one person and ended up with three All three quit not because they didn't like it In those days, those were the golden years of grants where anybody You had jobs available at the drop of a hat They didn't want to teach three courses So they all got better jobs One of these three now teaches in Connecticut So the semester opened in September and Dean Cooper had courses in Anthropology, but no faculty So what he did was that he went to the personnel records and found out that I had a masters in Anthropology Bob Fuson has something in Anthropology, and there was another guy in education who has since retired His name was Anderson He called me in and said that he had to pull me out of History, and he wanted me to coordinate Anthropology That is the way I became the Professor of Anthropology and the coordinator I taught one course, Fuson taught one course, and that other chap taught one course, and I ran the program Then finally we hired Roger Grades I interviewed Roger Grades in Arizona I was the one who


interviewed him because I was in Arizona for a meeting and Cooper asked me to do i t Hewitt : t There was a real emphasis in that period on interdisciplinary education and obviously if they were putting historians into teaching anthropology it was automatically interdisciplinary I guess What sort of things were you actually teaching? Arnade : t I made it clear to Cooper that I would only teach a basic survey Just because you had a masters doesn't mean you were an expert All I knew was basically cultural anthropology I was more interested in the social aspect I was starting to do things with Florida history I was dealing with shrewd For example, that year we did not teach a course in physical anthropology Then there was the Basic College Then I didn't want to go back to History because you had this ugly Goldstein affair which you might have heard Hewitt : t Was Haywood still here? Arnade : t No, he had already left Things had become very ugly with the Goldstein affair I had become president of the AAUP As president of the AAUP I could not defend Goldstein As a matter of fact, I flew all the way to Washington with a tape of Goldstein's lecture and played it to the AAUP Central Committee They said it was indefensible There was just no way the he could be defended There was some remarks that did show some mental problems That cost me alot of popularity when I came back I was considered a fighter for civil liberties and I said that there was just no way that we could do that In the tape Goldstein said that he had dreamed that he fucked the Virgin Mary and if that was true, that would be a great 1 0


achievement on his side How could you defend something like that? When they heard that in Washington they said that we should forget that Naturally the AAUP would not stand behind that Hewitt : t So when you left Anthropology you didn't go back to History? Arnade : t No, I didn't go back I had always taught a course in Basic Studies We all had to teach a course in Basic Studies I went into the American Idea, which was really what they had in Gainesville In Gainesville it was called American Institutions Everybody had to take it By the time I ended up being the chairman of American Idea I had 45-50 faculty members That shows you that About twenty were line-item faculty members So it shows you what a vast course this was By that time I began to get restless, I had done the same research, and I began to expand into other things Basically, we had two courses or two sequences of courses I brought up the idea that this course of American Idea should be internationalized The first semester should be strictly America and the second course should be America and the world Professor Warner liked this idea He brought me into Dean Cooper He liked the idea So I laid the basis of the second course which was America and the World When Professor Warner retired, I succeeded him When Mackey came it was abolished So I went back In 1962 I had become Chairman of the International Studies Committee We didn't have an international studies department, we had a committee Professor Fuson was the first chairperson I took over from him When the Basic College was abolished the idea was that we should now have an International Studies Department So I had the chance of either going back to History or continue with that History was in a very sad shape at that time They were torn to pieces at that time in the early '70s It was between two trends Those who believed that anything before 1 1


1 2 Roosevelt should not be taught For example, Florida history, which I had always taught even when I was in Basic Studies, they abolished It was not taught for four years because Delagrade in the History Department announced that local history was for little old ladies in tennis shoes That was not part of the dignity of this school This was very torn Then there was a succession of chairpersons Two died in that period One had been a very close friend of mine We had been together in Gainesville He died tragically Then the other one died Then I decided that it was just too messy The International Studies really appealed to me By this time I had already gone to Africa That is how I ended up in that department Hewitt : t Several people have mentioned the dismantling of the College of Basic Studies Why do you think the College of Basic Studies idea didn't work? What were the causes that caused it to be dismantled? Arnade : t They accused Mackey of the dismantling You might have heard that That is not true and fair to Mackey The process of dismantling had already started before Mackey It was the retirement of Allen Allen was forced to retire The new chancellor announced that his time was up He didn't want to retire This had to do with the Stevenson case Already before that Harris Dean, who became acting president, never really cared for the Basic College He was a professor of education He and Cooper were at odds over this thing So when Harris Dean became acting president he immediately instituted a Feasibility Committee with the idea of reorganization That basically had to do with the abolishment of the Basic College and the splitting of Liberal Arts Nothing was done over it Mackey, who I assume didn't like the idea, found that the feasibility study was to his advantage and implemented it But the idea that Mackey arrived here and things


1 3 changed is not true The process already started He had a ready-made document to implement it Mackey wanted to have a clean sweep and wanted practically every administrative officer fired There was a belief, and I tend to agree that there is a certain amount of truth to this, that he considered this radical change a good way of getting rid of people without having to fire them So for example, when he created four new colleges, they already had sub-deans There was Dean Cooper and then there was an assistant dean of this and an assistant dean of that He announced that these assistant deans had to apply for their new deanship, and no one survived Hewitt : t Is that when the College of Social and Behavioral Sciences was founded? Arnade : t Yes That is when he made Tom Rich the dean As far as I know, I might be wrong, one survived that ordeal This was the way it was to his advantage by engaging a reorganization He found it very easy to get rid of people Hewitt : I know you were very involved in the AAUP and the Faculty Senate How would you characterize faculty and administrative relationships in the early years under Allen when you first came and how did that change? Arnade : t There were very serious problems of academic freedom under Allen When we came with Allen we followed his leadership From the very beginning we began to realize that he was very weak in civil liberties This surprised us because when J H Miller died of a heart attack in Gainesville, Allen was made acting president and did not get the job The students demonstrated in favor of Allen because they considered him liberal I think Allen just got caught up in the beginning '60s of the civil rights movement when this whole thing finally came into being and he just could not handle


it For example, one other thing that Allen did One day I was teaching the American Idea course, and a young female student walked in late and I had seen that she was crying After class I went to her and said that if she had bad news she shouldn't have come to class She said, "No, I walked to this class across campus and I ran into the president and he really chewed me out ." I asked her why? She said it was because she was wearing shorts He apparently dressed her down and said, "Young lady, this University does not wear shorts and this is bad manners ." I always remembered that incident He could not grow with the times At that time we still had dress codes In the '60s when this began to loosen up with the long hair and the demonstrations, he just didn't know how to handle it I think Chancellor Mautz, who was an accomplished politician and probably a machiavellian because he was conservative in the '50s and liberal in the '60s, realized that the man had to go because he was just outdated So the faculty relations were very, very bad I am glad I got tenure before this thing blew up because he just ) Binford and me, wouldn't even talk He just wouldn't talk to us And then the whole Vietnam thing came down, and he wanted to get rid of Truett in philosophy over the draft thing because Truett was some chairman or something, and counseling students how to avoid the draft He was ready to suspend Truett from this thing So we had to rush in there The whole AAUP censor Finally when the issue was settled, Hans and I handled that issue We bypassed the president and finally Chester Ferguson, who saw the problem Hewitt : t What was that issue? 1 4


Arnade : t We were censured It was our academic freedom thing We in political science A professor was fired in political science His contract was signed and he had written a book Hewitt : t Is this the person from Vanderbuilt? Arnade : t Yes What was his name? Yes They wrote that book on the Cold War They broke their contract Obviously that was immediately censured Allen refused to even compromise on the issue All the professor wanted was an apology and two invitations as a guest lecturer with the airfare paid That is all he wanted This came to something like $3000 at that time Allen said no I went personally to see Chester Ferguson He was one of these really tough guys who tried to put you on the spot He was a segregationist in the old days and he didn't believe in the AAUP, so I was an instrument of radicalism He began to realize that was beginning to hurt us He said, "Well, we are not going to hire this professor ." I said, "Well, we don't need to hire this professor, all he wants is a letter from the president saying that there was an error that was committed and he wants to give a lecture ." He asked how much this was going to cost He was thinking in terms of 50 or 60 thousand dollars I said that it would come to around $3000 He said, "Oh hell, is that what it would take?" And I said, "Well, President Allen doesn't Allen was furious at me for going over his head Then he called me back That was the first time the chairman of the Board of Regents ever called me up directly and he said, "I talked to Allen, and you were right He is a stubborn son of a bitch!" That is the way he put it He said, "I'll tell you what we will do Since I am Chairman of the Board, I will write the letter It's not below my dignity to write the letter Would it be alright if I, as Chairman of the Regents, sign this 1 5


instead of the president?" I said, "Sure, that would be far more better ." He said, "Well, I'll get you the $3000 dollars You guys get that gutj coming over here ." That is the way it was solved Allen refused to see this man All this led to Allen's downfall There were tremendous problems Hewitt : t During the interim presidency of Harris Dean and Reece Smith, were faculty administration relations put in abeyance during those interim presidencies? Arnade : t I think the faculty--although you had the reorganization--the faculty was very pleased with Harris Dean Harris Dean's presidency coincided with the only really bad demonstration we ever had in terms of the Vietnam period It was out where the soccer stadium will be It was in the process of getting very ugly Harris Dean handled it very beautifully He personally went out there and talked with the students and talked to the police and totally defused the issue So he become very, very popular with the faculty at that time Hewitt : t He was interim president for two years? Arnade : t No, I think it was just a year or a little more One calender year I think It was right until Mackey came into the middle of the term Hewitt : t To what extent did faculty, who had been displeased or at least ambivalent about Allen's leadership, see Mackey's coming as a change? Arnade : t Mackey was totally unknown quantity Hewitt : t Really? 1 6


1 7 Arnade : t Although the news had filter it down to some of us I, who still had my contact with FSU, learned that he was bad news The majority didn't realize it and it was a rude awakening In terms of academic freedom, there was no academic freedom issue It was just an issue of him running a dictatorship Somebody told me the other day that this was the Pol Pot period of USF Anybody who opposed him, out he went Hewitt : t What was the role of the Faculty Senate in this era of the late 60s and early 70s? Arnade : t It was very difficult to deal with Mackey He would let us do whatever we wanted as long as we didn't criticize him It was really a kind of dictatorship He didn't want us to deal with anybody he fired When it came to civil liberities and that kind of thing, like the womens rights, he was just as liberal about that issue It was a totally different baligame from Allen So on the issues of womens rights, gay rights, four letter words, and dress codes, he couldn't care less He let us do whatever we wanted to do But when it came time for him running his little empire Hewitt : t How did the Faculty Senate actually get off the ground? Initially, wasn't there an All University Senate? Arnade : t There was an All University Senate, yes Allen was the president That is another long story We dethroned Allen and the revolution against Allen was engineered by three persons and Allen never forgot that It was Binford, Jurgensen, and myself We could not have done that I was always very careful to protect my back Mautz had been my boss He was the one that called me in and said, "Charles, there isn't a Chinaman's chance in town to


get a promotion So I advise you to go with Allen ." I thanked him for that One point he had gone to Bolivia, and I had just published a book on Bolivia and so I wrote a letter to the president of Bolivia He always talked to me at that time I began to realize that at that time we could insult Allen and if Allen wanted to do anything Mautz would stand up for us Allen didn't know that we had the backing of the chancellor on that issue So obviously it wasn't such a heroic act as Hans Jurgensen makes it out to be Allen just simply walked out of the senate He became very angry It reminded me of that day Nixon walked out The faculty senate elected, obviously none of us because our hands were tainted with blood, but they elected the guy who became the dean of Natural Sciences He is retired now It was the second faculty member he hired in terms of Mackey was the one who abolished the All University Senate I didn't like the idea because of one basic reason Binford thought that the faculty should always be alone He had a very elite attitude I told him he had a very Leninist attitude that he There were representatives from the As a matter of fact, we had blacks representing the janitors They were there My support in the All University Senate Binford accused me that I was finagaling to become president because I didn't have the faculty support, but I had all the other people's support I told him that I was more egalitarian, that I liked the idea, and that Mackey used this scheme to split them This was another rouse of Mackey, that the All Univeristy Senate was a spokesperson for the whole University Then Mackey divided it into three so he could manipulate it So I opposed the idea of the All University Faculty Senate Binford supported it, but Mackey won Hewitt : t But then you continued to serve on the Faculty Senate for eight years? 1 8


Arnade : t Yes I continued to serve in the Senate Binford, I think, became its first president So then it went on Then I became president T still feel very strongly today, and Binford disagrees with me, that Mackey used, did that for, really to rule is to divide I think the All University Senate during the period of Harris Dean and the first year of Mackey was very successful I think was far more successful than we have ever had That is my opinion There was a unity that we never had before It was a very egalitarian thing Hewitt : t Were there also students in the All University Senate? Arnade : t Yes, there were students on the All University Senate I opposed that idea because they had their own senate, so they had double representation I felt that the All University Senate should be made up of everyone except students because Unless the Student Senate would be abolished So they had double representation I think it was one of the few examples in the academic world that I have ever seen where there was And some of the secretaries spoke up For the first time I saw black employees speaking up They didn't take a back seat Hewitt : t Let me bring you back to the Social and Behavioral College during the same time period I assume that most of the departments like International Studies must have been fairly small at that time since there really hadn't been separate departments in the College of Basic Studies and the College of Liberal Arts? Arnade : t By the time the International Studies was broken up it was really a one and a half man affair Mark Orr had been brought over here We had this 1 9


2 0 International Studies Committee The chairman of the committee put alot of time and began to develop programs This is one of the reasons why Fuson walked out He said that he didn't have the time to do this I eventually walked out too You were teaching full-time and you needed to do your research So eventually we requested that a permanent full-time faculty of international studies be hired That is when Orr came in None of us wanted the job So Orr was basically a one man committee Then Hechiche came over here on a Fulbright Grant, and Orr immediately got him to teach one course in International Studies Hechiche had become a brain drain and wanted to go back I don't know how he got to become a resident I have never been able to figure that one out So he joined He taught two courses in International Studies and one course in American Idea because I told you that the second semester When I dismantled the American Idea I was in charge of dismantling it That was a very difficult job and that is was one of the things that I am really proud of The thing that I am proud of is that every line-item faculty member was placed in a job None of them lost their job Some of them were not tenured Behavioral Science was not the same thing Four or five were terminated We still have a lady running around today who is doing odds and ends jobs over here She is now working in the dean's office She was terminated Her name was Joan Newcomb She was a victim of it Everyone of them I got a job Patricia Adams, who didn't have tenure and didn't have a Ph .D ., went to Advising She is now retired Another fellow who had a law degree is now at the Bay Campus in charge of Criminal Justice Two years ago he won the best teacher's award His name was Tim Reilly I think myself I was privileged I could have gone any place I wanted As a matter of fact, at one point I was asked to move into the medical school, to teach an


international course in medicine I selected to come over here Bob Warner came with me He had to leave the chairmanship because of his age in those days Bob Warner and myself, the two chairpersons, came over here with regard to Orr Everybody else went to all different kinds of places Judy Ochshorn served under me She came over here and we continued to teach one year of American Idea It is a very strange thing They permitted us to function for one year and I ran the program and theoretically I was responsible to Orr as sort of a subdivision, but Orr never interfered I ran a reduced scale American Idea program within International Studies All my documents had to go from my I had to sign something like Chairman of American Idea that had to go to the director of International Studies Then Judy went into Womens Studie's So everybody got a job That is the way it began to grow Hewitt : t Women's Studies obviously was set up after the College of Social and Behavioral Sciences What about Afro-American Studies? Did that come in initially or was that also ? Arnade : t No, that came much later Neither Festus (Ohaegbalum) nor Kofi Glover were here at all in that period They came much later As a matter of fact, our first Afro-American student was a visiting professor that we brought over here that I met in Africa His name was Professor Akin Toya We started out with a visiting African professor Hewitt : t Teaching in International Studies? Arnade : t Yes, teaching in International Studies Then I went on a year and a half leave and when I came back Festus was here I had nothing to do with that 2 1


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2 3 the Tropic of Cancer In the Art Department they showed nude models That is a whole new story! They didn't even do nude models until the seventies The idea of modeling in bra and panties was unheard of So in downtown, they began to think this was a cesspool of immorality, radicalism, and communism Allen didn't provide any leadership The afternoon paper, when it finally folded, was ultraconservative They attacked us constantly They had their heart in the right place though Harris Dean tried During the Harris Dean administration came the famous She's now a judge She was named to the Board of Regents I saw her name in the paper the other day Her famous saying was that the University of Florida resident halls are nothing else but dens of prostitution That made the news She was on the Board of Regents That became an incident that went on for a whole year She now is a judge People had the idea that she wanted to become the first female governor Harris Dean was able to calm her down too Then came Mackey Mackey just could not deal with her He was cold Mackey was a cold fish I remember one day I ran into Mrs Mackey She was a very cold person She reminded me of a New England conservative I remember seeing her once at the food store and I was well known then I couldn't hold a conversation with her At the reception she would stand there, sipping her cocktail, and look down in a very she didn't want to be they just could not communicate By this down the Tampa community had caught up with us and I have to give credit to Brown for being the first president well, Reese Smith obviously, that broke the ice But even Reese Smith when it came down Have you ever talked to Reese Smith? I got to know Reese Smith I did not know Reese Smith at all when I was in the Senate At one point I remember in the parking lot he told me that it was a life time experience for him He didn't know the kind of


people we had over here This was really true He said that, "After I left, I liked it ." But even he had a shock He established the first breaks and then Brown just stepped in and developed what Reese Smith had planted It was very bad Hewitt : t So it really took the first two decades of the school to develop? Arnade : t It was very bad I gave speeches downtown, and they were ice cold When you say the University of South Florida I personally got into trouble several times One time I got into trouble for a speech I gave downtown and they asked that I be fired Apparently what I said, and this is really true, what I said they sent in a letter to the Board of Regents They sent a letter to Allen never passed the letter on to me, but Mautz passed it on to me He said for me to just forget about the letter It had to do with Latin America, and I said that Protestant missionizing in Latin America is really very difficult and a waste of time It's like little fishes trying to go against the current because I see Latin America has the highest birth rate Every baby that is born is automatically a Catholic So I think Protestant missions should concentrate on other issues in Latin America A Baptist preacher was over there and "hells bells" broke loose He said that I had insulted missionary work in Latin America and I was leftist and so and so That gives you an example on how we got into trouble downtown Hewitt : t Let me ask you about some more pleasant moments You mentioned the ability to dismantle the American Idea program and keep everybody on line faculty and that you were very proud of that 2 4


Arnade : t I am very proud of that Nobody ever recognizes that That is my own satisfaction Hewitt : t What other sorts of events or activities that you were involved in at USF do you think were the most positive influences that you had? Arnade : t I think if you can When I die and you have this little memorial for me or something like that, I would say that the dismantling of the American Idea Getting the University of South Florida off censure of the AAUP I'm very proud of that I took alot of Not until jets came into being that I liked to fly Flying back and forth was painful to me because I had a problem with my ear That is probably the two items The third item is a small little incident that happened during the Mackey administration Mackey was I learned how to deal with Mackey because I had found out that if you stand up to Mackey He was like a gun fighter in the corral If you showed weakness then he would shoot you If you had two guns and stood up to him, he would respect you So we did stand up to him I didn't have nothing to He was unable to find anybody One day I was in the Senate Mackey called me up at home in the morning He said, "Charles, I want you to be sure to be at the Senate meeting this afternoon ." I said, "Why me?" He said, "I'm introducing the chairman of the Board of Regents ." He was the president of the University of Florida He said, "I've been accused of stifling faculty opinions I know that when when the Board of Regents comes you are going to ask him a nasty question and I want you to be there and be yourself because that is my best defense ." I think that is one of my highpoints 2 5 Hewitt : t That is a great story


Arnade : t That is an absolutely true story I discussed this with my wife and she couldn't believe it Those are the three incidents that I really remember Hewitt : When you look over the 25 years you have spent here and the years that you were involved with the legislative process of getting USF off the ground, what do you see as the most important changes that have taken place at the University of South Florida either positive or negative ones? Arnade : t We have lost our original function and maybe that is good We were supposedly created to emphasize teaching and to put research behind us This was very agonizing for many people People like some of us charter faculty members who are still here, we have been able to change Some have not been able to change In the early stages, believe it or not, publications were detrimental to the profession When my book was reissued and then it was printed by a printer I tried to hide it Today is a whole different story Everybody who publishes a small amount wants to advertise it to the whole world This has really changed that emphasis Dean Battle, for example, never could take it He has never been able to adjust Some of the others, even Don Harkness, haven't published very much, was able to survive by adjusting himself I think that is very noticeable And the tremendous change in academic freedom I guess it happened in many other universities, but we started out from below zero Coming to this ultraconservative community was a president who didn't provide leadership on that issue Things that we do today that we wouldn't have done Remember that little girl crying because of During the twenty-five years that I have been away, I was a visting professor for one 2 6


2 7 summer at the University of Michigan and so on Already at that time when we required people to wear ties and things like, already in Michigan kids were running around without shoes and girls were running out in short shorts and things like that The change came very rapid I got to give credit to Mackey for that He loosened up on that issue Hewitt : t If there was any change that you would like to see occur at USF, either realistically or idealistically, what would change at this point, given your years of experience here? Arnade : t Maybe we have moved a little bit too far to the other extreme I was just thinking this morning, here is registration Students are coming in and asking for professor so and so Professor Hechiche is in New York Professor Ochshorn is not here Professor Myerson is not here Professor Stamp is not here I'm here because my wife has to be here, not because I want to We have one car and we come together and I do my work over here In the old days I couldn't beat that The faculty had to be in the office And students get frustrated I had a student come in and said that he needed desperately to consult with Professor on that issue I told him that he wouldn't be back till next week Thats not a criticism, I would do it myself I think we have gone too much over that side In the old days you could not do that You might say that we ran a community college In some ways we didn't run a community college, but we were very attentive to students You have to be a student here to realize this My wife as a student, my children have been students how insensitive some of the faculty and the bureaucracy does seem to students During the Allen administration, bureaucracy was very sensitive This other thing of rudeness to students, Allen wouldn't tolerate that He might chew out a


OPRIPC5 2 8 female student for not wearing the right clothes, but at the same time, he would chew out a bureaucrat for being impolite to a student I think that I feel nostalgic about that We put far more attention But this university has always been a cold university until the faculty Because faculty from the very beginning have been dispersed all over Comparing to FSU and Gainesville, this is a very cold and unfriendly university That is for sure There was never any kind of In this department, for example, we don't have any social get togethers In History, they have the traditional Christmas party At one time they had a picnic So there was a little bit more get togethers In our department, we don't have anything The first time we ever had anything is when Orr retired and we gave him a retirement party Finally we decided to make Glover the chairperson after nobody wanted We didn't even have a party to welcome him He just walked in and sat down That is happening in many places People live all over There is just no contact This has always been a very cold faculty While the faculty was cold to each other and there was no great social life, they were always very attentive to students Students felt that when it came to this campus it was something like a second home That doesn't exist anymore We don't socialize now I'm just as guilty I have been told that students don't like to come to my office because I am very quick I don't sit down and chit chat They all like me, but they know when they come to my office they have three minutes Hewitt : t This has been far from small talk and thank you very much for participating


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