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Mary Lou Harkness oral history interview

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Material Information

Title:
Mary Lou Harkness oral history interview
Series Title:
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project
Physical Description:
1 sound file (62 min.) : digital, MPEG4 file + ;
Language:
English
Creator:
Harkness, Mary Lou
St. Julien, Milly
University of South Florida Libraries -- Florida Studies Center. -- Oral History Program
University of South Florida -- Tampa Library
Publisher:
University of South Florida
Place of Publication:
Tampa, Fla
Publication Date:

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Academic librarians -- Interviews -- Florida   ( lcsh )
Genre:
Oral history   ( local )
Online audio   ( local )
Oral history.   ( local )
Online audio.   ( local )
interview   ( marcgt )

Notes

Summary:
Mary Lou Harkness, hired as a USF librarian in 1958 and later the Director of the library, remembers the beginning of the library, the growth of the library's collection, and the library's response to changes in academic programs.
Venue:
Recorded Aug. 15, 1985.
Statement of Responsibility:
interviewed by Milly St. Julien
General Note:
Description based on CD version record.

Record Information

Source Institution:
University of South Florida Library
Holding Location:
University of South Florida
Rights Management:
All applicable rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier:
aleph - 002070818
oclc - 613612444
usfldc doi - U14-00022
usfldc handle - u14.22
System ID:
SFS0022366:00001


This item is only available as the following downloads:


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C O P Y R I G H T N O T I C E T h i s O r a l H i s t o r y i s c o p y r i g h t e d b y t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a L i b r a r i e s O r a l H i s t o r y P r o g r a m o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d o f T r u s t e e s o f t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a C o p y r i g h t 2 0 0 7 U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a A l l r i g h t s r e s e r v e d T h i s o r a l h i s t o r y m a y b e u s e d f o r r e s e a r c h i n s t r u c t i o n a n d p r i v a t e s t u d y u n d e r t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e F a i r U s e F a i r U s e i s a p r o v i s i o n o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o p y r i g h t L a w ( U n i t e d S t a t e s C o d e T i t l e 1 7 s e c t i o n 1 0 7 ) w h i c h a l l o w s l i m i t e d u s e o f c o p y r i g h t e d m a t e r i a l s u n d e r c e r t a i n c o n d i t i o n s F a i r U s e l i m i t s t h e a m o u n t o f m a t e r i a l t h a t m a y b e u s e d F o r a l l o t h e r p e r m i s s i o n s a n d r e q u e s t s c o n t a c t t h e U N I V E R S I T Y O F S O U T H F L O R I D A L I B R A R I E S O R A L H I S T O R Y P R O G R A M a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a 4 2 0 2 E F o w l e r A v e n u e L I B 1 2 2 T a m p a F L 3 3 6 2 0

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MARY LOU HARKNESS St Julien : I am speaking with Mary Lou Harkness, the Director of the University of South Florida Library in Tampa Mary Lou, could you tell me what your first contact was with the University of South Florida and why you chose to come here? Harkness : t When I first heard of this school I was at the Library School at Columbia University The way the library program worked, at the time I got my first degree, I had to get a bachelor's degree to get into the program But the degree was still only a Bachelors in Library Science It was called a 5th year degree I got that at the University of Michigan Then after I had been working for ten years I decided that I really should get my master's degree So I went back to Columbia While I was at Columbia, one of my fellow students, who was working on her doctorate at Columbia, had just been recently at the University of Florida and had worked with Elliot Hardaway there So what he was looking for was a catalogue librarian which is where my experience was He contacted her, among other people, and asked if she had any recommendations So she recommended me I think the thing that she said was that, as far as she was concerned that the most important thing about a job wasn't the job itself, the salary or the location It was the person you worked for She felt that she would rather work for Elliot than any other librarian she had ever known So that plus the fact that it was a brand new university This was in 1958 Actually I came down for my interview in April of 1958 That was far before they even started the University I didn't even know much about Tampa In fact I remember looking inside the encyclopedia and getting information about Tampa because I knew so little about it I had

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2 at one time, in my second job when I was looking to move from my second position, I had considered the University of Florida They had an opening So I had just a tiny bit of contact But I had never been to Florida Well that's not true, I had been to Jacksonville but some people say that is the same thing as not having been to Florida So anyway I came down in April of 1958 and at that time the offices were in the County Court House John Allen, Elliot Hardaway and John Allen's secretary were the three people on the staff So that is where they were headquartered I stayed downtown at the Hotel Floridian which was a fairly nice hotel then My first impressions of Tampa were not real great Elliot came to the hotel He didn't have a car at that time because his wife had stayed in Gainsville His daughter was finishing up high school She was a senior in high school and they didn't want to move her that year His wife filled in and his daughter had stayed in Gainesville, so he was down here without transportation except for walking and he was close enough to downtown so he could do that So anyway, we walked to dinner and then got back to the hotel early enough in the evening for me to go to a movie You know that when you are in graduate school you don't have time to do things like that So I decided to go to the Tampa Theater, and as I was going from the Floridian to the Tampa Theater, a freight train came right down the street I thought do I really want to come a town that has a freight train going to down the main part of town? I had been in Atlanta at Georgia Tech and, of course, I was in New York City then, so Tampa really was a rural town That was my first impression The next day, following this interview, John Allen and Elliot brought me out to campus We drove out Florida Avenue There wasn't 1-275 then Here again that was not a real stimulating experience because the roads were lined with

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3 used car dealers It wasn't a particularly exciting street Then we drove out to campus Here again Fowler Avenue was still a dirt road We came out and saw the campus and this was before any construction was being started I don't think they had done any clearing yet So all there was was scrub oaks and that sort of thing John Allen told me that there was going to be this here and you could tell that he could envision what it was going to be like I wasn't that imaginative That was my first sight of the campus St Julien : Why did you choose to come here? Harkness : t For two reasons One was to start a new university, a new library It was an opportunity that very few people had A few more people in Florida have had it since, but this was the first of that nature in Florida and one of the first in the country So that really was a professional challenge It was very exciting Then, as I indicated, Dr Andrews had given Elliot such a very strong recommendation The interview that I had was certainly reinforced that feeling Those two reasons I think were pretty substantial reasons As far as salary was concerned I think I came for six thousand dollars a year I think it was about what I was making when I left my previous Job I didn't have alot of offers for much more than that any other place I had been It was competitive enough St Julien : When did you actually start working? Harkness : t This was in April and I started the first of June St Julien : What did they have? Where did you actually work?

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4 Harkness : t By the time I got here, they had grown out of the Court House mostly because Elliot had been scrounging books everywhere I think that year I am not sure he had any money to buy any materials with He might have had a little bit because I think he started some subscriptions by then, but very, very little There was just not a library budget that year That would have been the '57/'58 year He was going out scrounging books from anywhere he could He sent letters to libraries all over the country asking for duplicates He had gotten enough that they were getting crowded out of the Court House because all these boxes of books were gathering So they moved, just before I arrived, to 349 Plant Avenue which was in Hyde Park It is right near the bridge going over to Davis Island It is not a parking lot or something else That was the offices and it was a three story residence Right there on the Bay I remember one story that Dr Allen told us One time he was sitting in his office He had a nice, big office overlooking the Bay He was on the telephone talking to someone in New York City and all of a sudden he kind of gasped and the man asked him what was wrong He said that nothing was wrong, that he just saw a Tarpon jump out in the Bay That part was nice When I arrived, there were just three other people, so I was the fourth person hired for the University So we had quite a bit of space then We didn't have alot of furniture and we didn't have any shelving When I first started cataloguing the books, I didn't have any shelves to put them on or even to work with them So we just got them out and put them in order on the floor This was an old wooden residence One time we came in and there were termite wings all over everything So we had to call the exterminators and then they canvassed the house I have never seen anything like that before In the meantime they had gotten into the books

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and laid their eggs so when I first started processing the books one of the things that I did was open up and dig out the eggs from the books St Julien : How many books were you working with? Harkness : t Both Elliot and I have lacked historical sense about keeping records of that I did keep statistics There was perhaps three or four thousand that he gathered by that time and not all of them were worth adding to the collection That first year we had maybe fifty thousand dollars St Julien : Was this coming from the state? Harkness : t Yes These were all state appropriations The first fund raising was the "dollars for dorms ." That must have been a year or so later There wasn't any other money at that time What we had vie pretty much spent for reference tools and to get started on the journal subscriptions Primarily, the early subscriptions we started with popular journals, standards like Har ers and Atlantic, It was general education type real basic university library-type of material That probably took the greater part of our funds Not long after I came we hired a clerk-typist who worked with me So I did have some historical help St Julien : How long did you work at that building before you actually were able to move into any buildings on the campus? Harkness : We were there until September of '59 and by that time the University had hired a business manager and comptroller Bob Denard was the business manager He came that summer some time The associate business manager, Carol Rogers, came maybe a little later Some of those dates are probably somewhere They both came from the University of Florida Clyde Hill, 5

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6 who was the first director of the physical plant for the University, was hired around that time also Sid French, the dean of the Basic College, came in fairly soon after that Sid had a secretary Bob had a secretary Then there was an accountant Those people were all coming in the summer of '58 and then on into '58 and '59 Sometime in the spring of '59 we hired an acquisitions librarian, Jerry McCabe, who came from Michigan State University Elliot and Jerry shared Then in the summer of '59 also the college deans were hired sometime along there too There was Russell Cooper, Dean Battle, and Charlie Milliken Those people were being hired somewhere along there By that time the building was getting pretty crowded and here again, we were doing alot of the crowding for our library books because as we catalogued the books and got them ready for the shelves, then we would just put them in boxes We didn't have any reason to have any out because there wasn't anybody to use them But even so in boxes, they still took up alot of space In September of '59 we moved out to the campus to a little house that was on the campus when the state took it over Father Merle Dennard lived in that house for a period of time when they first started with the University and Sid and Florence French also lived in that house while they were waiting to find a permanent house Then in September of '59 the library staff moved out to the campus So we were the first operating unit to be on campus The plants and grounds people were out here working and getting the grounds ready They had a nursery so they could get plants going As far as any of the operational units, the library was the first group out here The house is the one that the University Police use now St Julien : That is quite a distance away from the main

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7 Harkness : t It was, but then there wasn't anything else out here then except for construction By that time, September 1959, the construction was well under way The Administration building, the UC, and the Chemistry building were all under construction The library was delayed for two reasons One, in the latter part of '57/'58, Florida had one of those freezes and the economy dropped in Florida so the legislature cut back on the initial appropriations So the library building was the one thing that had to be delayed The other thing that delayed it was when they started to do the preliminary work, they discovered the lime stone caverns was right underneath where the library building was to be and so they had to pour in wet concrete and then they piled sand that was the same weight as the library building For a period of time it was nothing but a pile of sand So that delayed that St Julien : Had you seen the plans for the library? Harkness : t Yes Before I came they had developed those little models of the first five buildings So those were in the Court House on display and then we had them in the lobby of the temporary office building on Plant Avenue I knew what the exterior was going to look like Then we had the floor plans and all of that St Julien : So then after the Administration building, did you move into the University Center? Harkness : The library did That is the books for the students But there wasn't room for the whole staff By that time there might have been twelve or fifteen people soon there after So the whole house was pretty crowded

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Those people were technical service people who bought the books and catalogued them In the summer of 1960 Elliot hired a reference librarian and three assistant reference librarians So when we moved, they moved into the University Center offices and we moved the stacks into the ballroom The stacks were not large enough to hold all of our collection We had a little over twenty thousand volumes So we went through and pulled out those books that we thought would be most used that first year and left the others in boxes Then we had to mark the card catalogues so people would know what was there and what wasn't We thought that we needed to do that At that time the only students that we had were freshman and a few sophomore level courses So we were we were really providing pretty much basic materials for the students We didn't have to have alot of research materials It was not as difficult as if it would have been a full fledged program St Julien : How difficult was it to get money from the state for acquisitions? Did you get any donations later once the University started getting students? Harkness : t We didn't get allotted much in the way of money It was difficult to get money from the state because the SUS libraries have never been well supported The University of Florida and FSU weren't getting anything like the funds they needed for theirs The funding people just didn't realized how much money it took to support a library, much less to get one started We got donations of books themselves, but of course those were what people had, not necessarily what we needed I know that one of my stories that is p robably i n there is that we must have had one hundred sets of National Geographics, And we were able to get a few good choice 8

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9 things, but not what you could rely on I think even the '60/'61 budget was $75,000 That figure sort of sticks in my mind While that went alot further than it would now, that was still not a very adequate budget I think we sort of educated to some extent the Board of Controls and the legislators about library needs because when Florida Atlantic and West Florida opened they got alot larger initial allocation for books than we did in our early days It was never adequate On the other hand on the plus side, because the University did start out with just the Basic College the first two years and limited offerings at the upper levels and no graduate program, the demand on the library resources were not as great as they might have been The colleges then were the Business Administration, College of Education, and Liberal Arts College with the division of Natural Science, Social and Behavioral Science, and Arts and Letters at the undergraduate level So there was not alot of emphasis then on research materials In those early years the emphasis was on a teaching faculty rather than on a research faculty While the faculty was demanding right from the beginning, there was not the heavy demand on research materials that there is now So the needs weren't quite as demanding as they would have been with a full graduate institution St Julien : Did any of the donations come from the community? Harkness : t There was quite alot of community interest and quite a few book offers, but not substantial There wasn't a real outpouring of either money or books One of the things that the administration realized early on was that even though the University had decided from the beginning to be a commuter institution the justification for it being this urban area was to provide education for people in their home communities so they

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1 0 would not have to go away to school they still recognized that some students would like to come here who didn't live in the area, and also that having residential students and having students from all over the state if not all over the country was an enrichment for the University There was a real feeling of a need for dormitories Dormitories are never funded on just straight appropriations So we had to sell bonds for those and you have to have funds to do that So that was the first fund raising program we had was this "dollars for dorms" and that is really what they were asking for If everybody who is interested in the University would send in a dollar, we could really get alot of what we need Alot of people did send in a dollar Here again, alot of this is in the archives I couldn't tell you how much we collected, but at least we collected enough to get the capital to do ahead and get the federal loan to start the dormitories That was the greatest expression of community support, that was the most visible It really was very rewarding that people did come forth Pitching it on a dollar level, rather then saying that we were only interested in hundred or thousand dollar gifts, got more people interested St Julien : Did you have any trouble in the community with censorship in that period of the late '50s or the early '60s? Harkness : t Interestingly enough we didn't I'm never sure whether this is a positive or a negative thing, but I think that people who were giving the University trouble and I know that you have talked to people who were involved in alot The library was never under attack in that time The reason that I am not sure that is positive, I'm not sure that the people who were doing this kind of attacking thought the library was important enough to

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1 1 get concerned about I'm not sure they read and I don't think it occurred to them that other people might read If there was some concern, it was deflected quickly enough by President Allen and Elliot Hardaway I was really never aware of anything like that I do remember that somebody did say something to Grace Allen one time about contemporary fiction that we had and Grace just said that in the University students need to study everything that there is They need to know what is being written Generally that was persuasive enough in that particular case St Julien : What kind of effects did the different presidents have on the acquisitions for the library? Harkness : t The first person that President Allen appointed was the library director I think that shows that he recognized how key a library was to an academic institution, and also he recognized that you need to start as soon as you can to get your library developed so that you will have a library when the students come and not wait and then try to build one He had that strong feeling for the library Since the library was going to be one of the first buildings he recognized the fact that designing a library building requires someone with knowledge of libraries and that you can't just turn it over to an architect So that was another reason that I think he wanted Elliot there soon because he wanted him to be involved in the planning of the building He was very much involved The architects, quite good architects, worked very closely with Elliot in the planning of the building All the buildings initially were suppose to be joint classroom building because we didn't have any classroom buildings So all they buildings were suppose to be designed to include classrooms Well, libraries and classrooms just don't mix very well because of the security

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1 2 problems I'm not quite sure when that idea was put aside We never did have any actual classrooms in the library in that building We did have the art gallery which is still in that building That was the idea of John Allen He very strongly wanted to have an art gallery right from the very beginning So he insisted that there would be space in that building for an art gallery I would say that basically that John Allen's influence on the library was one of recognizing the value, giving as much support, and then giving alot of responsibility to Elliot If there were times that they didn't agree, I wouldn't have been aware of it Basically, I think that he delegated the responsibility to Elliot and had enough confidence in him to build it A library always reflects the academic program and the direction the university is going Libraries have sometimes led, when they haven't had an opportunity to get some financial collection or something, but by and large a good library is a reflection of the academic program So the emphasis on the Basic College and on Liberal Arts that John Allen had and the emphasis on teaching faculty that John Allen had was very much reflected in the library We strove to get a good general liberal arts collection We used two things in our selection in the early days There is what is called the Lamont Catalogue Lamont was the undergraduate librarian at Harvard This was kind of an innovative thing that not too long before this University opened, Harvard decided to have a separate undergraduate library because Harvard's research library is so tremendous that it is very difficult for an undergraduate to use and they began developing their own collection that would meet their needs They selected very carefully those materials that any good undergraduate program at a basic college level should have available for the students They published the list of what they selected and that was the Lamont

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1 3 Catalogue We used that for a selection tool In a sense, that is what we were looking for too If it was good enough for Harvard it would be good enough for our school Then about that same time or soon after we started, the University of California also began to develop their new university and so they had a very interesting program before the universities opened and before they were really staffed They had a central processing center where they selected and catalogued and everything It seems like there were five institutions So they bought five copies of everything that they felt good undergraduate institutions should have Again, that was, published and circulated to college libraries So that was another selection that we used The students were very key to the University It was a student-centered university, or at least it was intended to be The library reflected that very much Alot of that reflected the philosophy of Elliot Hardaway He was a very student-oriented person who felt that library service to the students was the most important task that the library should be doing The faculty were important in assisting us in deciding what materials the students should have The library was designed for student use There just wasn't this student participation and things, the way it was in the late '60s and '70s I don't know if there was alot of student input into what we had and what we did As well as we could we planned to make the library easy for students to use and available for students, that was his philosophy Here again, I think that was John Allen's philosophy So the library was basically, as was the University, an undergraduate library What made it difficult was that we grew so fast In looking back at that beginning and also I have to recognize that I had perhaps a narrow view point then from my own experience here and my own

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1 4 responsibilities the perception really was that this would continue to be basically an undergraduate institution with graduate programs at the master's level in business administration and education where the need was greatest At that time, education was very important because there was a teacher shortage in the area and so that was an extremely important school Business administration, at the undergraduate level, there was a need for that In the liberal arts also because liberal arts was key in cementing the whole thing I think if you talk to some of the early education people, you have found out that the education graduates took basically the number of courses that the state Department of Education required for certification, but most of the work was done in the liberal arts area with the emphasis there So that was the vision that I got from Dr Allen and Elliot Hardaway that that is what the mission of this university was It was that kind of a program Then the enrollment we thought we would probably grow as fast as getting five thousand students by 1970 I think we had five thousand students by 1965 Then as the faculty grew The first faculty who came in were faculty who came from that same general education background that John Allen considered very important and that Sid French had dedicated his life to The faculty came because they were strongly versed in general education, because they were teaching faculty That was pretty much a shared theory There were some people who had other ambitions even then As the enrollment grew, the faculty grew As we added more faculty, we added faculty who came from somewhat of a different perception and different traditions and whose goals and ambitions were to expand to graduate programs The direction began to change plus the fact that the area was growing and the whole economy was changing outside So the University was not making all

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these decisions internally, they were being done externally too The state and the town began to have needs for different Engineering for example There was no intention of having engineering That was not in the early plans That came along around '63 Because there was a demand for engineers and then in this area of the region it was a very logical one But that brought in a professional school we hadn't had except for education We hadn't had that Given the limited funding and the rapid growth of the University, the library never really was able to get as strong, a core undergraduate selection to meet all the program needs of that program before we started adding the research I think that is basically what the history of the University and the library has been all along We had never achieved where we are, the kind of support we need for what we are doing now before we have had to start adding to resources that are needed for where we are going next St Julien : What kind of pressures was put on the University when all the branch campuses started? Harkness : t Our collection was not, by any means, the size it should have been and it didn't have the depth that it should have had With the library you have two kinds of things For some fields, the humanities, the social sciences, and the natural sciences you need to have as much in your collection of things that were published whenever because they are so good Those are not always easy to get because they are not in print Even if you have the funds to buy it, it isn't easy But we didn't even have enough funds to buy what was coming out currently You need that You need both You need to go back and buy retrospectively and you need to keep up with the current literature, particularly when you get into the natural sciences 1 5

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1 6 and engineering where the current is most relevant Those come out in periodical literature and tend to be very expensive We were just always running to catch up So we had not as strong a collection as we needed When the St Pete campus was established, the funding for the St Pete campus was not great either The library was just something that we took on as part of our responsibilities For the collection, at that time, here again, that started with the freshman program That changed and then became an upper level There was not a clear picture of how that program was going to develop or it wasn't really conveyed to us real well So we were making these selections here in this library for that collection Here again, we started out with the idea that what they would need is a good, solid undergraduate collection The general selection would be useful for an overall general program What actually happened was that curriculum has developed in response to demand What is taught at St Petersburg is what there is a demand for That doesn't have an overall well rounded You have peaks and valleys Education, of course, was always the strong one That is it has been at every other regional campus as far as the University programs are concerned The extension library, which served all of the continuing education programs of the state university system, was housed in St Pete on the Bayfront campus At one time the whole SUS continuing education program was in St Petersburg That just didn't work out for an overall program But the extension library which had been started at the University of Florida had been moved down here as part of FICUS When FICUS was disbanded the extension library was the one centralized function that remained Since that supported primarily the extension courses taught all over that state and those were very heavily in education, that collection was very heavily oriented towards

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1 7 education The first dean of the St Pete campus, Les Tuttle, came from education He felt that that library would serve their needs We felt that it would not for two reasons One, because it was too heavily oriented towards education and two, because it was planned to send the books out to courses It wasn't planned to be a residential So books that the students needed there might be sent to Ocala because the course was being taught there So there was the conflict We felt like we had to establish a USF/St Pete library distinct from the extension library We began building that They had no staffing for that library As we began to recognize that the library had to have staff right there on the scene, we just had to take a position or two from our library and move it over there We didn't move personnel, we took vacant lines and hired people who were over there at St Pete That campus began, as far as the library is concerned, as a branch of this library, like with budgeting, staffing, and administration That was all a spin off from this library That continued for just a few years Then as they developed a stronger administration and began to get alot of residential faculty, then they began to feel the need for more administrative control over the library Also, as their needs for more staff grew, we couldn't possibly spare anymore We weren't getting new positions in this library They got positions that were actually appropriated for Tampa but were shifted to that growing program over there St Petersburg then just sort of grew out there Sarasota is an entirely different story because the New College was already established We actually had alot of contact with them right from the beginning because the first librarian they had was a rather inexperienced librarian She depended a great deal on Elliot and really on all of us for advice and assistance So we had worked with her

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1 8 in a close relationship We didn't make any decisions for her or anything like that But we did assist her in that way Therefore, we became more familiar with that library than might have been She was still there when the University took over New College, but she had some administrative problems and the New College people began to recognize that she was not the best person for that position So they had brought in a retired librarian, originally as a consultant and then as the actual librarian That was years before New College was taken over by the state So he had done a good deal of shoring up the administration It was rather weak and so he had strengthened that So it had an operational, on-going library at New College So the decision was to absorb, rather than to have New College's library become the Sarasota campus library serving both USF programs and the New College So that was right in place So it sort of Just continued on The difference still with St Pete is although they now have a separate staff They do their selection The select what books they want, but we do the actual processing We send the orders out and we send them over there fully processed That reduces some of their staff needs Because New College already had their staff fully in place, they do all of that for themselves We don't have that much of any relationship with them Plus the fact that the New College honors college program calls for a different mix of materials And their faculty research they have more research type materials than a liberal arts college itself would need to support the students that do the work at an above, undergraduate level in their research work and the faculty need research for them to be in that kind of a college So they have some material They have a larger journal collection, for example, than St Petersburg does It is a broader based one It is more liberal arts

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oriented For example, they have a good deal of the natural sciences, which St Petersburg doesn't have except in marine science because St Pete doesn't have a Natural Science Program The New College's library and the Sarasota campus library is larger because they had started from the New College days and it is a little broader than St Pete's St Julien : What was it like to be the first female hired working with a staff of men in the late '50s? Harkness : t I was the catalogue librarian so my position was sort of like the department head and all the men to begin with had administrative levels like the Director of Libraries, the Director of Physical Plants, and the Business Manager So I think there was a status there that made a difference anyway So it is so very hard to perceive how much of that was my being female and how much was being listed on a lower level status They were all gentlemen to the core That was the kind of people they were In that group we didn't have any chauvinistic men I was not an equal status wise and I don't think they would have considered me so On the other hand, they respected me for what I did know I had a good relationship with all of them One of the things that had nothing to do with that was the fact that I was the only person that didn't come from the University of Florida Elliot had been at the University of Florida a few years and had experience with quite a few other institutions and there was alot about the University of Florida library way that he didn't agree with In fact, alot of things that he did here were things that he wanted to be able to do because he couldn't do them at the University of Florida He was the assistant director there He was known to say, "Since they did it a certain way at the University of Florida, therefore we are going to do 1 9

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2 0 it this way ." In fact, if anything he might have said, "We did it this way at the University of Florida, therefore we are not going to do it that way here ." The others were much more "by-the-book," especially Bob Denard and Carol Rogers, because I don't think they had experience with much other than Florida And also because they were the financial people and that's important You've got to do things the way the rules and regulations say you do it whether or not you think it is a good way to do it If you really disagree, the more you know about it the easier you know ways to get around it They did have that They weren't blind followers by any means of the University of Florida I'm not implying that they did anything that was not ethical because they were very excellent people In fact, Carol Rogers was really basically our first procurement person and the purchasing rules of the state of Florida were not nearly as rigid as they are now This desk, for example, was purchased in 1960 for the first building We moved all the furniture practically from the other building over here when we moved and that was fourteen years later It is better furniture than anything we were able to buy because he didn't have to buy on state contract He was able to go out and negotiate An honest procurement officer who has his own authority to do his own purchasing can do alot better for you in both quality and price Unfortunately a dishonest person can also cause alot of problems, but he was intent on getting the best bargain of good quality material He knew the system so he knew what he could do and what he couldn't That was a plus There are alot of benefits having those experienced people, but there was alot of this University of Florida type of thing My husband came from the University of Florida also when he came down to join the faculty He is still a Gator fan Of course, I was raised to expect women It never

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2 1 occurred to me when I came to the University of South Florida that I would be the director of the library That was just not in the career plans I did not come here thinking that someday I would be in this position It never occurred to me So there are those expectations that are sort of ingrained in you St Julien : In summary, what would you say are some of the best developments or some of the worst developments that you have seen over the years here at the University? Harkness : t I guess the loss of the strong student emphasis I think as we have grown larger and older I'm not saying that it wasn't research-oriented before because it probably was It is certainly moving into a research institution That is inevitable given the higher education, our role as a state institution, and surveying the needs of the state I think in that, the decreasing emphasis on undergraduates has been unfortunate I think that sort of goes back to what I said about We always had to stretch ourselves thin We have never been able to consolidate our gains and do very, very well with the things that we are doing before we are going on to do the next thing None of our programs have ever been funded to do that program We have always got to get permission to do programs The funding has always fallen short of what the program calls for It is not because the planning hasn't been there It hasn't been because the people haven't said that this is what it is going to take to do this program The funding people just haven't given us that much It is usually because they don't agree with us or the money just isn't there So we end up doing it anyway and we get the funds as we do it One of the best examples of that was the first dean of engineering, Ed Cox He had a proposal

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OPRIPC5 2 2 in for the doctorate program When you ask permission to start a program like that you have to fill out a form that says what resources you have One section of it is the library So he sent me the section on the library and it asked if our library was adequate to support this program I wrote that it wasn't because we didn't have enough materials or the space I then sent that back to Ed and he said, "Don't say that, you will kill my program!" That was it It wasn't that Ed wasn't quite aware of those things, but he was also aware that he was going to do that program and he could do it and we were going to be short He would do it with short resources He was just maybe a little more candid or maybe he just happened to I think that is sort of the way that it has always been If we waited till we got the resources that we needed to do everything that we are doing and planning to do, we would never do it We would still be a four-year institution with some master's programs That was just not in the cards for a state university in an area like this St Julien : Thank you very much for talking with us today