Gilman W. Hertz oral history interview

Gilman W. Hertz oral history interview

Material Information

Gilman W. Hertz oral history interview
Series Title:
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project
Hertz, Gilman W
Hewitt, Nancy A., 1951-
University of South Florida Libraries -- Florida Studies Center. -- Oral History Program
University of South Florida -- Tampa Library
Place of Publication:
Tampa, Fla
University of South Florida Tampa Library
Publication Date:
Physical Description:
1 sound file (62 min.) : digital, MPEG4 file + ;


Oral history. ( local )
Online audio. ( local )
Oral history ( local )
Online audio ( local )


Gilman Hertz, professor of Physical Education at USF, recalls the development of the university's physical education and athletics programs.
Recorded July 19, 1985.
General Note:
Description based on CD version record.
Statement of Responsibility:
interviewed by Nancy Hewitt.

Record Information

Source Institution:
University of South Florida Library
Holding Location:
University of South Florida
Rights Management:
All applicable rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier:
002071448 ( ALEPH )
623717094 ( OCLC )
U14-00023 ( USFLDC DOI )
u14.23 ( USFLDC Handle )

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Hertz, Gilman W.
Gilman W. Hertz oral history interview
h [electronic resource] /
interviewed by Nancy Hewitt.
Tampa, Fla. :
University of South Florida Tampa Library,
1 sound file (62 min.) :
digital, MPEG4 file +
e 1 transcript (29 p.)
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project
Description based on CD version record.
Recorded July 19, 1985.
Gilman Hertz, professor of Physical Education at USF, recalls the development of the university's physical education and athletics programs.
Hertz, Gilman W.
v Interviews.
2 610
University of South Florida
x History.
University of South Florida
7 655
Oral history.
Online audio.
Hewitt, Nancy A.,
University of South Florida Libraries.
Florida Studies Center.
Oral History Program.
University of South Florida.
Tampa Library.
i CD version:
Hertz, Gilman W.
t [Gilman W. Hertz].
w (OCoLC)52764752
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project.
4 856


C O P Y R I G H T N O T I C E T h i s O r a l H i s t o r y i s c o p y r i g h t e d b y t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a L i b r a r i e s O r a l H i s t o r y P r o g r a m o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d o f T r u s t e e s o f t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a C o p y r i g h t 2 0 0 7 U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a A l l r i g h t s r e s e r v e d T h i s o r a l h i s t o r y m a y b e u s e d f o r r e s e a r c h i n s t r u c t i o n a n d p r i v a t e s t u d y u n d e r t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e F a i r U s e F a i r U s e i s a p r o v i s i o n o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o p y r i g h t L a w ( U n i t e d S t a t e s C o d e T i t l e 1 7 s e c t i o n 1 0 7 ) w h i c h a l l o w s l i m i t e d u s e o f c o p y r i g h t e d m a t e r i a l s u n d e r c e r t a i n c o n d i t i o n s F a i r U s e l i m i t s t h e a m o u n t o f m a t e r i a l t h a t m a y b e u s e d F o r a l l o t h e r p e r m i s s i o n s a n d r e q u e s t s c o n t a c t t h e U N I V E R S I T Y O F S O U T H F L O R I D A L I B R A R I E S O R A L H I S T O R Y P R O G R A M a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a 4 2 0 2 E F o w l e r A v e n u e L I B 1 2 2 T a m p a F L 3 3 6 2 0


DR GILMAN HERTZ Hewitt : t We are speaking today with Dr Gilman Hertz, Professor of Physical Education in the College of Education as part of the USF Silver Anniversary Oral History Project Could you tell us first of all what was your first contact with the University of South Florida and why did you choose to come here? Hertz : t Well, it wasn't that I was in a rush to go to Florida I had a nice job at High Point College in North Carolina I gravitated from Rippon College to Northern Illinois and then to High Point Then I heard about the University opening and I thought it would be nice to develop a program from scratch that I dreamed about for a long time I looked into it I thought my next stop after that might have been Cuba but they closed that up So we came down here, interviewed for the job, and I was hired subsequently in July of 1960 Hewitt : t What were your first impressions of USF when you came down to visit? Hertz : t Well, my first impression after I found it on a dirt road, which is now called Fowler Avenue, was that there was one building going up, which was the Administration building, and the original student center In between that there was sand So you walked ankle deep in sand from building to building Then they put sidewalks on the perimeter Their philosophy at that time was to see where the students walked, where the paths developed and then they put the crisscrossing runways of sidewalks that you see between the Administration building and the Student Center And so it kind of looks to me like an airport that could land from any direction And I thought that wasn't too attractive, but that is how we started They


2 finally gave us an office with about four staff members to develop a program in physical education Hewitt : t When you were originally hired, what was your job or your responsibilities in your first job here? Hertz : t When I first came here I was Director of Physical Education and Intramurals They seemed to want a unique program in this area which I couldn't quite comprehend I thought I was pretty broad minded and I am willing to try anything We had a little concept at the time of building on prior experience The emphasis in the University at that time was "Accent on Learning" predicated on the fact that students should come to South Florida and build on the experiences they had So one of the building requirements of physical education was that if they could pass the proficiency examination in these courses, that they could be exempt from the activity, which was certainly agreeable to me Because before going to college, I participated in five sports in high school for four years, and I certainly didn't want to go to college and take gymnastics, which I was in, or basketball or football, in fact I didn't want to major in physical education I majored in science and minored in German and English, backed into education and guidance administration as a master's and later decided I didn't want to dissect a frog So I got into coaching and decided to get a doctorate degree in Physical Education with about 20 hours of audio/visual and some courses in Business, so I was pretty diversified Hewitt : t So when they were looking for interdisciplinary faculty, you were it Hertz : t Boy I tell you I've been in a few plays at South Florida which I enjoyed and a little summer stock in Illinois So I am ham enough to want to get on


3 the stage to do that sort of thing We tried to develop a program, but our philosophy is different a little bit I think the president at that time, John Allen, and a fellow who was the head librarian, Elliot Hardaway, 1 always considered him a person who was a paradox in a sense because he played tennis, which is unusual, so I got the opinion that he thought everybody could play tennis in Tampa and everybody could swim because this was the land of sun and fun and sand I don't think Elliot quite realized that we had no swimming pools in those days and we had no tennis courts in those days We had one municipal golf course in the city which was Rogers Park, a primarily black park, and we integrated that in reverse, which they couldn't do the other way We didn't even have a municipal beach and in my opinion we still don't because I don't think the causeway beach counts as a beach They sort of felt that Physical Education at that time should build on experience and perhaps about 65% of the students could pass the proficiency examination I remember making the statement one time that I thought at least it ought to be B level because if proficiency was holding a racket off the ground for 30 seconds, and that was proficient in tennis, I figured 100% could do that So we went around and around with that, and we decided to push it and pushed proficiencies and I don't think that less than 1 : applied for them Our swimming exam was extremely simple, up and back in the pool four times and if you made it that was proficient It was almost called drown-proofing I couldn't quite figure out the concept And I finally talked to Lou Mayhew about this and I mentioned he used to pull physical education books off the shelve and I said, "Lou, I don't understand what this program is that you want ." He said "Well, we want a little core to stand by and when a student felt an urge to recreate or learn a skill they would come to you and you would take them out on the tennis


4 courts or the golf course and teach them how to play ." He said "When I get to be president of the College I am going to do that ." I said "I hope you hire me because that is exactly what I am looking for if you can justify it, if you can justify it economically, if you can develop it from a standpoint of economics, I would like to do that ." I think I can teach ten in a class or twenty in a class or I could teach one And then if it is unscheduled, you see, I don't think that is too efficient I would like to say, "Well, why don't we meet a ten o'clock on Tuesday, it might be better to go twice a week, it might be better to go everyday So why don't you bring ten friends with you, you see, and now we got it all scheduled ." That is the way we were trying to do it originally I wanted to give grades and we finally got that through Dean Battle at the time I was pushing extremely hard for every elementary teacher to take speech and I thought the Speech Department thought I was a knight in shining aribecause I was pushing so hard for it But you see in physical education kids take an exam and they say that they can't take the exam very well I would say, "That's OK, why don't you write it out for me ." He would say, "Well, I really know it but I can't write it ." I would say, "That's fine, why don't you show me ." He would say, "I really know it, but I can't quite show you ." I figured if they couldn't do one of those right, talk it or show it, that I don't think they knew it very well So that is some of the things that we were going around and around about at that time So at the last minute they decided not to have the teachers take Speech and because we gave in on that they should give in on something else and they gave in on giving grades, A, B, and C level My feeling was that if somebody took a proficiency exam I think "clepping" is extremely important and we do alot of this If a person "clepped" English class and passed it and at the same time and in the same


5 breath he said "Look, I 'clepped' tennis too," and you saw him play tennis, and saw how bad they were, then I think you might look askance about how proficient they were in English So these ought to be above average and we have had that concept for a long time, but not many takers I think the kids are rather Hewitt : t Now in those early years that the College of Basic Studies was the main arena for most incoming students to take their first courses in, were you involved in the development of the College of Basic Studies or teaching in the College of Basic Studies? Hertz : t No, not exactly I supported it immensely I thought it was a great concept but we subsequently got away from it It was just dropped by the president then, Cecil Mackey, and fought at that time I thought by the people teaching in it They had great concepts They taught these sections and they had a team set up to develop exams A team trained to develop examinations And I don't think many college professors have much training in developing exams They might have two or three true/false questions, a couple multiple choice, an essay and a matching and do some statistical treatment of that with those different fruits that they are working with I think that you are just going to get fruit salad So I think they dropped the program that was very dear to my heart, and other schools have brought it back and I thought we would too We had a capstone course I did teach in that Senior Seminar We would discuss everything from the high cost of dying to women's lib to sexual freedom and any of the topics that were current What was so disturbing to me is that kids that have gone through four years and they didn't even know we had a media center They didn't know you could get exams on tape They had been to none of these areas,


6 never opened their mouth in four years of college because we had 200 and some students in these large auditoriums, and when I asked them to write their philosophy of life, I was pretty dismayed when they turned it into me and asked if that was what I wanted And I really didn't give a damn what they put as their philosophy of life as I told them because it was their philosophy And yet when we teach in this manner of kind of pouring it down their throats and having them regurgitate it back on an exam, I think we are missing the boat as far as education is concerned But having students from different disciplines, music, art, math and so forth, all in one classroom, expressing One girl didn't even know how ask\ t somebody to come and talk to the class I took her by the hand and introduced her to the professor She brought him over and said, "Hey, this guy is going to talk to us ." And the guy said, "Well, I really don't know what you are talking about, but I can talk about anything I'll talk for awhile, yes and answer some questions ." Well, I think that is a poor use of community resources She should have readings out, questions arranged to ask him and so forth and discuss it after he left So 1 think we are missing the boat on that And I like the program I'm sorry to see it dropped Hewitt : t Now in those early days you obviously were talking to lots of different people on campus about the sports program and about the general curriculum How would you characterize the relationship between faculty, staff and administrators in those early days? Hertz : t Those were the days that were extremely exciting because, as you may have heard, the university was built from scratch Which is the first time in the history of education that a university was started this way It always started with colleges and they would add the other colleges And here we


7 are with different colleges, Liberal Arts, Education and Engineering and so on We happened to be housed in Student Affairs, which is a little incongruous, it's not a college per se, but everybody had a pretty good relation ship to the activities of students The thing that I always thought was remiss was when they were planning this from 1956-1960, they had the president, the librarian, the dean of the College of Education, the dean of the College of Liberal Arts, Russell Cooper, and President Allen and I thought there was great comraderie in that little office on Platt Street They would go out to lunch and they could philosophize Dean French was a guiding force behind this by the way, and his name should certainly be mentioned I enjoyed his philosophy and read the things he has developed in science He is a great, great person He put together the first book "Accent on Learning" which I thought was a masterpiece at the time because that is exactly what I believe in The last person to be hired was a guy named Howard Johnshoy as Director of Dean of Student Affairs A brilliant man and somebody I could certainly cope with, who was coming in in January, the year we opened in August ; and a person who was that much involved in student affairs, student activities, to bring in that late and everything that he suggested seemed to have already been presumptively decided For example, the dormitories Alpha, Beta, Gamma are some of the worst buildings I have ever seen Cockroach infested and small kitchen size rooms where you stack the beds on top of each other He had this plan of suites where he would bring people from different disciplines together in a suite area so you could talk to a math person or someone in another area I think we get too myopic in our view of what education is all about That is why I like the senior seminar The only thing I think is it should have been done in the freshman seminar I have learned alot One thing I went in


there particularly one time it was very vivid, this guy with this big heavy beard and bushy hair and I wasn't too understanding of some of these people at that time, and the first thing he said to me was if it was alright if he didn't attend these classes because he said he had been to something similar to that Without even glancing at him except cut of the corner of my eyes I said I didn't give a damn whether he came to the classes or not He never missed a class He contributed fantastically He brought all his friends to the class One time he made a slip about those darn hippies and a girl in my class rolled her eyes So I said "Ask Frank your question ." She said she didn't have any question I said to go ahead and ask Frank her question So I said, "Well, Frank, let me ask her question If you're not a hippy, what is a hippy?" And he began to describe it to me He said that he was just a wild man and a Jesus freak and things like this We got all through and he wrote an evaluation of the course, which I still cherish I have a copy of it He said, "You know I came to this class knowing you were a coach and I have this opinion of dumb coaches ." And he said, "You kind of dispelled that thought about me," and of course he helped me alot by understanding that you can be pretty smart and intelligent with the long hair So both of us, we learned alot and I got the respect from him We had alot of those things going on at that time Hewitt : t Since you were involved in physical education, my understanding is that originally at USF the plan was to only have intramural sports and no intercollegiate athletics Hertz : t There are some things that you should learn about that People think physical education is synonymous with athletics to begin with We have to dispel that concept I made a speech to the faculty one time, and of course 8


9 I had it organized and I think I know the field pretty well, and one guy came out of the audience and I found out later he taught speech He was a good friend of mine, Tony Zates, who was in education He said "God, that is the best speech I have ever heard and felt ." The opening statement was exactly what I did and then I reiterated, and of course he could recognize that as being a speech teacher He is from Wisconsin too He got his doctorate at Madison where I had, so we had a nice relationship I excited Gary Ichols so bad, who is head of Resources, about exercising and what we were going to do ; he went out and jumped on the trampoline that night He did a front drop and broke his nose and I think that was the last time Gary was out doing this stuff But I think we got a pretty good understanding across and had good support because we were so excited and we were working so closely together and it was the camaraderie that was exciting And since then we have been pretty busy empire building and as this program developed we didn't have the open door policy that we used to have and it started splitting apart Yes, we developed a physical education program and we had no facilities, so we developed a concept which I called functional physical education We had lectures on the importance of fitness and of varying aspects We had the theater We brought in experts to show them how to do a gymnastics stunt, for example It looks fairly complicated, but if you do the front roll first, then you do the back roll and then you do this and this, then you add and build to it I think the students got a better appreciation of what physical education is all about We then set up a building, we finally got a building, and then we got a swimming pool After the lectures, then they owed us two hours a week of exercise They could swim, ride bikes or run the exercise course As you know, traditionally students have always had an instructor stand over them and crack the whip so


1 0 to speak So our idea was that you could do this exercise anytime you wanted to, but you have to get it in But we didn't let them entirely alone, you understand We put a time clock out there So you had to punch in the time clock, run through the course and then punch out We would check those cards every week to see if they got at least two hours of exercise We would see kids all over the campus with their shorts, boys and girls exercising together We had them going to the mats at the swimming pool or run their bikes so many laps and we would switch half way through the course I thought it was exciting We were way ahead of the field I think I was the first one to develop taping our lectures We made little productions We had a big huge screen in the auditorium We had 500 kids in there And we would put these speeches together and play them over I think I was the first one to develop projected examinations We would take the exam questions and put them on 2x2 slides, large print And we would project them on the screen for 25 or 30 seconds and then the bell would ring and then it would switch Then we decided to put two projectors up, A form and B form It would sit side by side They couldn't cheat because the paper next to them might be screen A and he might be screen B And we got very good results with this Economically, if we lost a test we didn't lose the security of the test If we had a bad question or a bad foil we would pull that one slide out and put another one in We didn't have to type it, staple it or assemble it So economically it was better And so we used this for many, many years We made up alot of questions so then we would do an item analysis and find out if those questions were from an easy exam, we would give them a difficult exam just by picking out the questions that we wanted to put on that test Something could have been done with the College of Basic Studies I thought those guys did a tremendous job over there


1 1 They could have tried these projected examinations I still use them and project them on the screen because I hate to staple those papers together and assemble them and type them up That is how the program started I was very interested in intramurals because we wanted active students It is always difficult at a school like South Florida because it is a commuter school basically And not having a residence hall makes it difficult to do I have a daughter right now who was a pretty good athlete in college She has a job now After coming from Tulane I told her she got out of Tulane at the right time And she went to Cal State in Pasadena That is a commuter college and her budget was very, very bad In fact they took away one-third of her budget just before she got there But she is doing some good things and getting it back The kids don't stay there long enough But once you get dormitories and you get that Greek League in there and you build it up with alot of emphasis Personally, I don't like intramurals I guess I would rather sacrifice in sport you see for the varsity teams which I did I had two in college, sports I participated in But I hate to get out in that tcuch football field, playing basketball, or even if I played football, I don't know where they are coming from These guys get pretty happy at those games And they party and get those little sisters out there and they are out of shape and they overextend You can get killed on this But with those students that want to do it, professionally, yes, we reorganize A guy named Murphy Osborne did this Tremendous young man I brought with me from North Carolina God, what a personality He was an outstanding student at High Point and has now gone on to be, well, almost president of High Point College, but he decided it wasn't the right religion He didn't want to give up being a Baptist I can't imagine that, but that's what he decided So that program is going


1 2 good and then when I wasn't director they dropped it immediately and, of course, our enrollment went down because a couple persons could project about 500-1000, could handle that many students in this class which I really think we need for FTE and they have been hurting ever since, instead of getting something back We wrote a book on it, "Programs For Fitness," and distributed that It was kind of unique Everybody started copying us around the country Hewitt : t When the College of Basic Studies was dismantled, since you were not officially part of that, did Physical Education also get reorganized or shuffled around in that major change in the curriculum and in the institutional structure? Hertz : t Not particularly from that standpoint it didn't They said Howard Johnshoy was very, very supportive of this program He would go to these meetings with the higher echelon, and that's what was happening then We had no gray zones We were either with that top level committee that I mentioned and it was black and white I always felt that that committee must have had so much fun for five years planning this university Then they opened the university and all hell broke loose Now the students came in and boy, nothing was prepared Johnshoy saw that we had to get communication centers We got civic units put together We had no newspapers We put bulletin boards up on the campus so they could read the bulletins And then pretty soon we got a page in the Tampa Times and then pretty soon we got our own newspaper So being in student affairs we weren't quite so affected by that but we wanted to get support Some of the staff I had at that time thought we ought to be getting respectability being under academics And I don't think just being under academics gives you respectability I think


1 3 you have to have a good program and that is what brings respectability And you publicize and you get them involved We saw support because when Johnshoy left he would go to those meetings and he would turn over a card to make a point And if he had to turn over another card, he would make a point It was just like playing poker You see if you could win it with playing three cards, he would close up the deck He doesn't show all his other cards, you see I remember one time we were talking about athletics and we never talked about that We never said we were going to have athletics This leads into another question which you were probably going to ask But he just took over the original "Accent On Learning" catalogue and there is a map of the campus that they projected and now where the medical centers are it says "intercollegiate athletics" and All you do is turn over the book to make that point because he never mentioned that before He never said that we would have that No, it didn't affect us We saw support from, well I think, the dean at that time of Education gave us a little lip service He didn't have a line item and I agreed to take over the development of the professional physical education program, which is teacher training I was a little naive when I got here, I would have never have come here if I couldn't have been head of physical education, intramurals, professional teacher training and/or athletics because my background has been this supportive I can go out and recruit you a tennis player, which I have been a tennis coach too, and I have been a track coach and a cross country coach I didn't get my doctorate to teach basic study things and I wanted it working together I like athletics I think it is great to have the pursuit of excellence So in basic programs you teach them some skills, and intramurals you give them an opportunity to practice it, and if you have been in that you can go out for varsity sports That is


1 4 the way it ought to work And so after three years he brings in one of his friends and that started a dichotomy between physical education and professional physical education and one to two more defected and the gap grows wider So then we try and affiliate, maybe get some more support and nobody is giving a damn about it With the College of Basic Studies, that is how we tried to get more support We had no support from them either So now we are a program We have to try to play three different people and then once they get entrenched then we talked about athletics Hewitt : t Now when did the athletics program start to develop and what was your relationship to that? Hertz : t When we started discussing whether we should have it or not, it seems to me that we are still meeting this top level committee It's almost the case of the blind leading the blind Everybody has worn a jock strap and everybody has smelled the linament of the locker room So they all know how to run it We were getting expressions from all the departments President Allen was so concerned about having athletics that he couldn't control that he was very adamant about not having any sports I remember the confrontations and the debates I used to have with Tom McEwen He would ask when we were going to have athletics Well, after we got into it a little bit I said, "We got athletics Tom We have soccer and we have swimming and we have golf ." I could see him thinking And he said, "Oh!" He said, "I thought you would have football ." That is all Tom thinks is athletics : football So these people were projecting these things I projected three proposals to him if he wanted to start Let's have competition between junior colleges I wrote him three papers And I said junior colleges and went on and on for the reasons to have it And they said, "Well, I don't know, we are a four


1 5 year school I don't think we should play junior colleges ." And I pointed out that we are in a bad geographic location because there was nothing south of us and the only place you could go north we had Florida and Florida State We didn't have any good high school teams Those days you wanted basketball I said, "Well, that's OK ." And I said, "Well, lets form an Ivy League of the South ." And this is what I was really interested in Because then you could have anything you want under the guidance of academia and you would parallel yourself to Columbia, Dartmouth and Cornell I used to go to Cornell for awhile and then I was at Dartmouth for awhile and I really appreciated those programs I also went to Notre Dame for awhile I understand what that program is all about And yet Harvard-Yale gets 60,000 people for the football games It is all predicated on academics, which we were also through the "Accent On Learning ." We could have had Virginia, who was floundering then in the ACC, but academically was really very respected Well there's one reason they probably turned that down Tulane at that time had a program and they didn't know whether they should stay in the SCC I guess they don't know what they are going to do after dropping basketball Vanderbilt was another one Washington in St Louis was another one And these teams I thought could have gotten together under that banner I thought that was interesting But we had a dean in the College of Business at that time, named Charlie Millikin, who since has moved down to Central Florida He says "That's nice Gil, but I think we ought to be the best ." I said "Charlie, there is not a paper I said, "Let's go with that new Continental League there starting to form in the United States which is going to get together with Notre Dame, Southern Cal and the Air Force Academy Lets get in that league ." He said, "God, that is pretty tough ." I said, "Charlie, that is the best ." So I kind of thought he didn't know


1 6 what the best was or the price that you had to pay to get the best And so we started these other programs, and I said, "Well, we can't compete with our scholarships and I don't believe in scholarships ." You see this is incongruous isn't it I coached at Ripon College I coached in Northern Illinois and never had a scholarship We even had an athletic director that had some jobs and by the time it came for my kids to work, he used them all for football And so you can't compete with them Because all of the junior colleges had scholarships The president said to me one time said to me, "Gil," he said, "You're the one who told me to get scholarships ." I said, "That's right, I did ." I beat DePaul University without a scholarship, and they're not bad at basketball And when I coached at Ripon we played Marquette, Wisconsin, Loyola, DePaul and those schools A little school named Chaminade out in Hawaii beat some of the top powers without scholarships So we got started and the philosophy was then that we could have one less scholarship than the players on the team And I couldn't quite figure that out because I was probably more sixth man in basketball We won the Big Ten, got there nationally in basketball I thought I was part of the the team And I think you ought to have at least the number not one less I arrived at that Many times I got a committee together to talk about these problems And about the time we would discuss it, then he disbanded the committee And so we never built on it I get so frustrated, when I walk in his office and talk about sports and I'm not criticizing him understand, but I think he had a little more experience perhaps than I had And I get anecdotes and he would say, "Well, when tennis is a I would go down to the tennis club and I would beat the pro a set ." Well, I was a little bit smart I didn't say "Well, a set is not a match ." Anybody could be able to beat you a set, but beat the guy


1 7 a match and that's a lot different, then that's a sport Then Tom McEwen was blasting him all the time ; but we somehow got started I remember one time I called to clarify this and I had called the committee because I wasn't understanding it, just like I didn't understand physical education according to Mayhew's ideas Boy, he wasn't too happy about that He said, "Well, you caused me to miss my supper and I got an apple and a sandwich out of the canteen," and he proceeded to tell us what he had in mind Now as I get older I would probably not have sports at all in college because I don't know whether you can control it I think the presidents are having a hell of time trying to do this So we started with the sports I mentioned We had soccer Soccer was to be our sport, you see, because Dean French had had soccer at Rollins and that was to be our spectator sport Then we talked about basketball We got a new dean in here called Wunderlik Wunderlik was from Kansas or Kansas State and I really felt that his main duties as Dean of Student Affairs was to go to downtown Manhattan and Where is the other school, Lincoln? to stop the riots after the games of Wilt Chamberlain and the guys were playing They were all over the streets tearing up the town And he called me in one day and he said, "Gil, lets start basketball ." I said, "Gcd I'm with you ." I said, "I love basketball I've played pro ball and coached for ten years ." But I said, "Dean, I think you know certain things First of all our geographic location is bad There is nobody to play and no scholarships etc etc Plus the fact I don't think the president wants it Two day later he called me up and said, "Gil, I didn't have my finger on the pulse did I? The president doesn't want it ." So after we got these other sports going then Dick Bowers I think talked to one guy who is head of student government with one or two guys with him pushing, I think they got it in and I think they sold


1 8 him a bill of goods It wasn't too smart as you can see now, we are only $650,000 in debt in basketball So we got going and had a great team to begin with The guy came here with a plan A guy named Donally Doing well The most excitement we have had on campus They fire him because he is too nice I never seen him raise his temper, I never seen him get off the bench and yell at officials Tremendous self-control And they fired him So that is how the sports started and Tom McEwen, I debated him alot And I didn't even think football would go in Tampa They have two teams Hewitt : t Now where did the basketball team play initially? I assume the Sun Dome was not always on the USF campus Hertz : t I had done alot of work with a guy named Patte and another guy in Indiana We were laying out facilities When I first came here they had it laid out on the campus that the physical education buildings were going'to be out where the intramural fields are, if you happen to know where they are Another section out there The campus is spread out wider than I thought it should have been anyway To go from Fine Arts to Physical Education is about 15 minutes If you want to go out from Fine Arts to where the building was it was going to take another 10 And you won't make it, so After the first week we just got them to flop that over luckily and put that over here by Social Sciences put the Physical Education building right across from the Social Science, which they did And then we got a chance to design it and I had a plan, which I thought was pretty good First of all you have to develop floor plans All those architects how many square feet can you build a building, you see, then try and squeeze everything else into it, you see, instead of getting a floor plan, I don't care what you cover it with But I could hardly talk to


1 9 the architect because they would probably fire you or were going to if they didn't I had the outdoor facility, which I had been doing for two years, all laid out and they hire some guy from Tallahassee, the politics come in, they paid him $15,000 to do it and none of it was right So we had to do it all over When we planned the building, the first one I thought edifice to the architect When I said alot of concrete, not concrete but stone and brick and a little block house, angled block house in the front for intramurals I said I wanted part of it but I didn't want it sticking out there like a sore thumb Their response to me was that you don't understand aesthetics And I said, "Well, I may or may not understand it, but you're not going to get the building ." There was alot of friction so they bid it and they didn't get it, they were $250,000 over the budget So then they said, "Hey Hertz, what would you do?" Well, what I would do is to put it in units, but we need certain units We need a gymnasium unit The president wanted three hundred seats in that unit, so he would be damn sure we wouldn't have basketball I argued with them a little bit, I think we got 1,500 seats in there We couldn't even have held intramural spectators with 300 seats, you see And so we got that unit with the locker rooms and the training rooms and the dance studio And then we got a before we had room to store gymnastics, so we got a unit to put the gymnastics in that unit so it would be set up all the time I would never use the equipment I if I had to carry out those parallel bars and trampolines and all that stuff every class period We got a wrestling unit and then we got an equipment issue unit, then we got the administrative unit where the offices are and the classrooms So then we just covered them with a roof covered the halls and then we got all these units That is a great idea We got to the swimming pool and I guess they put the swimming pool in and I said, "Well,


2 0 we need to put a roof over the swimming pool--an indoor natatorium--and they said they wouldn't get that far on the priority list I was trying to explain to them what difference does it make The guy was going to do it for free, design the roof And we had a hundred items in and we got 10, or we got 20 items or we got, what the hell is the difference And he wouldn't let him design it So those were the frictions we had, so we came in with the bid and then we are $150,000 under the budget with this way And then they had the roof designed with a swimming pool Two years later, $100,000 more, they got the roof over it and then the bricks started falling off and stuff like that So I thought that was poor planning and those are the frustrations of being the director We built a track We don't have any track club University of Chicago has a track club The track team would be the junior high team, but their track club has the best runners that they can get together and they take on all the university teams, that's what costs you very much You don't have to give those guys scholarships You can call Jim Ryan and try to get him a job with the Tribune He loves photography, he's a world record holder in the mile So that is how the building finally got developed Of course, they hired an architect whose roofs leak in all the buildings, and this was no exception So then we are into buildings and 1,500 seats, that is where we played the basketball games Some of the bigger ones we went down to Curtis Hixon Hewitt : t Did you get any kind of turn out from the community at basketball initially? Hertz : t Yes, we got 5000 or 6000 down at Curtis Hixon And so that wasn't bad We were only paying $6-900 a game for that and we had good exposure Well, they wanted to hire Hugh Duram to be coach after awhile I would have hired


2 1 Don Williams He is a good friend of mine He had done a nice job at Millikan He used to teach there at night school But the president wouldn't back him up Mackey, I already told this, but Mackey wouldn't back him up He wanted a guy who was clean shaven and the hair not hanging down behind their back and so he wouldn't back him up Maybe this shouldn't be on the report, but think about it He said you could only have three black guys on the floor at one time And Don was gentleman enough not to tell anybody that He lost two 6'8" guys that minute because he told him he couldn't do that, he wouldn't back him up So there were alot of things that hampered his success and then when they wanted to hire Hugh Durham came down and he beat them at Curtis Hixon I don't think he is a bad coach Ok, what else Hewitt : t Obviously alot of things have changed at USF from the early days to the 1970s What do you think were the biggest changes and what do think were the biggest causes for change? Hertz : t Do you mean facility wise? Program wise? Hewitt : t Program wise Hertz : t Well, we had alot of nice things at first I thought our Fine Arts Department was one of the finest I have been associated with I knew these guys pretty well Everything was authentic The president liked it He gave them alot of money But I never, ever did say that we should take away money from them, you know, for physical education because I don't think this is right and I like that program I support fine arts As I said I was a ham in a few of the plays I never did learn my lines too well I think dropping the College of Basic Studies was a thing that I didn't like And


2 2 then once we got to a certain point then we start getting a medical school, and I had hoped that he would have enough money to pay for all those other programs before a medical school came in because they better be well entrenched because you don't pay those doctors $25,000 dollars a year and they would rather have their own practices off campus to make money Oh I don't know, it does seem to be some of the big changes we moved along pretty well Dr Allen was not particularly community oriented as far as public relations were concerned Hewitt : t Did you do some of your own public relations work for physical education programs? Hertz : t Well, we tried to I went down all the time and gave away the trophy at the dog tracks when we had the academic day and the athletic day after we got going John Heeter was a good friend of mine, exceptionally good friend of mine and unfortunately he suddenly passed away last year, but they wouldn't even write him a thank you note for the day, and the money was really appropriated through the legislature to be used for athletics President Allen used it for general fund, which I think they were financing everything but the athletic program at that time And so John would say, "I'll give you the worst matinee in the year for your day Tampa U got $7,000 about the same time He threw a big party for them Invited all their friends to bet and the pot goes to the University I think they jumped from $7,000 to $35,000 the next year And then $100,000 We should have been doing this at every dog track and race track in the state and nobody coordinated that I remember one time I worked with our director of development to put together some fund raising programs I came up with the idea that Busch Gardens was everything was free at Busch Gardens at those days They


2 3 gave us the beer free and we are in free, and they didn't charge to get in and they didn't charge for parking or anything The predecessor to Art Pitmann was Louis Schwed We met with Louis Schwed to get his help And I worked with the director of development and we put together a little brochure that we were going to hand out to the people that parked there And at that time they were getting 12,000 people a day, which might break down to four people to a car which would be 3,000 cars We were going to charge them 10 cents to park And I did this deliberately That would be $300 a day, which would be $6,000 to $9,000 a month, which would be $72,000 to $108,000 a year and the government then matched that 10 to 1, you see, and those matching funds and the president we showed it to him and the business manager was for it too Put it in a drawer and opted for a wishing well with the United Way Get those dimes, nickels and pennies and I thought that thing could have taken care of the whole program forever So these are frustrating experiences for a person who thinks they are creative Just recently I offered to build 14 racket ball courts Friends of mine wanted to invest, and they wanted to run it for 10-15 years which has already been approved by the BOR and then they could depreciate the building, from their business standpoint, and then in 15 or 20 years give it to South Florida as a depreciated gift So they are coming out two ways And they wrote back and said they were sorry but they couldn't see this And yet they talk about money problems and they talk about maybe they are going to get racket ball A friend offered to build an 18 par 3-hole golf course facility in front of the campus Artificial golf greens You don't have to mow, water, ariate or fertilize and you can pick it up and move it if you wanted to And you got to mow the area in between And they turned and said no on that So I'm beginning to wonder if they are that destitute


2 4 financially or just myopic and negative So that program didn't go over too well So I think they were taking money out of student activities is what they were doing to sponsor it Hewitt : t Was there a big difference in the various presidential administrations in terms of support for physical education programs and for athletics? Hertz : t We got good support once we started in this physical education We got monies to operate Harris Dean came in and took over from John Allen Harris Dean was all-everything at Illinois State University I didn't get to know him that well until later He is funny And the first time we had ever had jokes told at the faculty meetings because Allen wasn't that type of person at that time He would have been a good president He was an interim president He paralleled my background in sport and yet he would have supported it But he was on only a short time Then Mackey came in and it's like I say, you build Mackey dolls and then tear off the arms and legs and discard the programs or discard the people And so quite a big difference there John Lott Brown in my opinion has all of the attributes to be a good president He is personable, he listens I thought we did alot of great things from John Lott Brown But I don't know if he has his finger on the pulse really of sports Alot of times as I look at it, I think we get people in the administration that don't have a sports background Dan Walbolt was a lawyer He took over Student Affairs In my opinion he doesn't have his finger on the pulse of what athletics is all about Hartly, handles all the money He has never jogged He had never exercised He has never been to some ball games he tells me And yet he is going to decide what kind of building he's going to build Alot of times in education we get people in these jobs that have had experience I think


anybody, I think most people that have a doctorate in the field, must be academically oriented and I really don't feel, I'll never do this again, I'll never have the chance to do it again, but I don't think I need a committee to tell me how to run the program I don't need guys from Chemistry in there to say how many Jockstraps I should buy One guy asked me one time when we were going over a budget, why he has only got 10 guys on the team and he ordered 48 supporters I said "My Godf" I didn't know what to say to that Pick on something significant, above $1 .25 I said, "Well, I guess they have one on, one in the locker, one in the wash and a spare ." I don't tell chemists how many test tubes they should buy or how many flasks they should buy or what kind of acids they should purchase I don't think I need them telling me about athletics You get some people that know something about it Or at least open-minded you could educate them, but not coerce them But after awhile you get rubber stamps on those committees too That stuff goes right through Hewitt : t Now when did the physical education program move out of Student Affairs and into the College of Education? Hertz : t That was just in the past couple of years I don't think there was any cooperation in my opinion between Basic Studies and the so called pseudo intellects in the professional schools Mine was considered a Ph .D ., I had my German and so on It relegates the people to teach activities that they are going Of course, I never did agree with that program because I think that they are teaching elementary teachers basically Consequently, they are not hiring any physical education people any more Because of the Reyes bill they are not hiring any more I proposed a program about six years ago to train coaches because the women sports team coaches, and then 2 5


2 6 when the women's teams came in, I called it coaching concentration They didn't know anything about the sports Alot of the guys in the survey that I did for Pinellas, Pasco, and Hillsborough County showed that 84% of the coaches that are coaching never had a coaching course The ones that did were not from the state of Florida So I thought training these coaches I sure wouldn't want my daughter being coached by somebody that didn't know anything about it I coached in track and they fought me like crazy because I am not a competitor Finally, she was forced to run a race and she won it and things changed Guys were there I'm going to beat these girls We had more fun winning than losing so you change philosophies and attitudes and then I developed another program which they blocked called Sports-Leisure Management There is alot of people who would like kinship to sport They could come in as financial experts, public relation directors for teams like the Bucs, the Bandits, and the Rowdies I got forty letters from these types of pages A friend of mine from the Sugar Bowl Also from Eckerd Center because you have to plan and bring in acts and so forth for this They just don't move because they are so entrenched in training physical education elementary teachers who are obsolete If a coach would quit He is a line item so he could teach physical education which means he can't get a coach There Is no line for him Now they are even talking about taking filling station attendants and stuff like this and who had experience, hopefully, and have them coach this course So there is a program because with all these activities down there, two pro teams, two soccer teams, a baseball facility coming up, and all these Busch Gardens/Disney World where they need people trained in this field and they are not being trained in this field and they were willing to support it We put the whole program together and they have been blocking it ever since


2 7 Most of the guys are professionals in this case because I know the dean, Yvonne Ralston who is the assistant to the academic dean was on my committee I had Bob Cox, who was the head of the communications on this committee because it's a communication problem Bob Cox is from Administration Pete Sasser, head of communications on this committee So it is a pretty impressive committee putting this whole thing together The guy that was really supporting it was academic dean and they just blocked it So I think they are pretty myopic in my mind to go over the program there and replace them So then they come to the Sun Dome which is generally called by me the Sun Doom That is kind of a Freudism I teach a course in facilities and design of athletic equipment So I laid out alot of things One of the first things that you do about developing a building is to have it efficient to maintain it and to run You have air blowing all the time to keep the teflon roof up It doesn't seem very efficient to me to keep that roof up It is translucent, it is not opaque In a night performance you have to wait till its dark if you wanted to turn the lights off in there It leaks like crazy The first year they put $22,000 into the floor because it warped They put $8,000 into the roof and then $6,000 more and then subsequently they have been putting equal amounts into it It is a design that nobody will admit to It was built on deceit, in my opinion, because it was called the multi-purpose center All they were building in my opinion was a basketball court If they were going to build a basketball court they should have built a good one They didn't bring the fine arts people in there or the band people in there I think the acoustics are terrible They can't hang amplifiers As you know we went through all that bit because you can't have sky hooks inside that Sun Dome I called a company later that would have put a whole new aluminum roof over it and reinforce


2 8 those spots They wouldn't even give them the facilities to find out what it would cost because they wanted to be ready for when the other ones go to pieces, like Detroit just did, when the roof collapses They would have done it, but they wouldn't give them the time because they thought it would cost too much, but they turned right around then and put $5,000 into that erector set to hang amplifiers on and then no place to store it The forgot the concession stands It just wobbles and wiggles They put in tarpans Dick Bowers used to say that we have forty badminton courts Well, who needs forty badminton courts? A friend of mine took a class over there because the gym was filled to teach badminton I said, "Joanne," somewhat facetiously, but pretty seriously, "be sure you take outdoor birds ." She came back and the bird wouldn't clear You couldn't clear it to forty feet because the wind would blow it back Nobody thought of that The trucks come down the loading ramps and hit the overheads They couldn't come within forty feet of the loading docks That is the closest they could get The only good thing I could think about right now is that it empties in a hurry I'm standing out there hoping that Marilyn Monroe would go out that door When your hair blows over your head and your twenty yards down the road before you know it And then they also said, and this is the deceitful part, that we are the only school in the conference that doesn't have facility like this other campus I later checked, after we built this, and found out that we are the only ones that do Every one you go to, it is downtown They dropped the University of New Orleans out of our league We won the championship the year before because they didn't have a facility like this But we used to play at Lakeland, Curtis Hixon, St Petersburg and our own gym while we were building ours and they knew we were building one Ours was about twelve million New Orleans was completing a


2 9 forty-three million dollar facility and they made them get out of the league because they wanted them to play in the Super Dome The Super Dome holds severity thousand people I saw the finals of the NCAA championship there and they would just take up one little corner of it Basketball is not sane in those kinds of facilities Now we are trying to compete with Lakeland Center, St Pete Center, and the one they are building downtown On our campus we have about three thousand students So that means that twenty-two thousand are coming from somewhere else Maybe down there on 301 and 35 might be easier access So there are alot of things I wish they would just admit it Now they are having litigation on the building because they said they couldn't play soccer in it if you follow that But is how high the wall is and here is your seating arrangement From the upper balcony this is the ground floor In soccer you can play off the wall Do you see where the sight line goes? It is 35 feet of the floor all the way around The goal is you are not going to see the goal The Rowdies have just given a hundred thousand dollars for seats In my opinion, one of the things that kind of helped soccer fold up I saw Gordon Jaygo the other day and he is out in Texas playing indoor soccer Do you know what his crowds are? 1900 people every soccer event You know what it would cost to make this thing go? If we put ten thousand people in there every match and let's say that the tickets range from $6 to $3 and let's say that the average is $4 $4 X 10 is $40,000 10 games is $400,000 And you have to take out the expenses and so on The basketball budget this year is $700,000 And that is filled We are getting 3000 people there Hewitt : t Thank you Dr Hertz for sharing your insights with us for this USF Silver Anniversary Oral History Project We appreciate your time


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