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Monley, Laurence E.
Laurence E. Monley oral history interview
h [electronic resource] /
interviewed by Nancy Hewitt.
Tampa, Fla. :
University of South Florida,
1 sound file (50 min.) :
digital, MPEG4 file +
e 1 transcript (19 p.)
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project
Description based on CD version record.
Recorded Aug. 8, 1985.
Monley, Laurence E.
University of South Florida
University of South Florida
Hewitt, Nancy A.,
University of South Florida Libraries.
Florida Studies Center.
Oral History Program.
University of South Florida.
i CD version:
Monley, Laurence E.
t [Laurence E. Monley].
USF 25th (1985) anniversary oral history project.
y CLICK HERE TO ACCESS DIGITAL AUDIO AND TRANSCRIPT
C O P Y R I G H T N O T I C E T h i s O r a l H i s t o r y i s c o p y r i g h t e d b y t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a L i b r a r i e s O r a l H i s t o r y P r o g r a m o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d o f T r u s t e e s o f t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a C o p y r i g h t 2 0 0 7 U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a A l l r i g h t s r e s e r v e d T h i s o r a l h i s t o r y m a y b e u s e d f o r r e s e a r c h i n s t r u c t i o n a n d p r i v a t e s t u d y u n d e r t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e F a i r U s e F a i r U s e i s a p r o v i s i o n o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o p y r i g h t L a w ( U n i t e d S t a t e s C o d e T i t l e 1 7 s e c t i o n 1 0 7 ) w h i c h a l l o w s l i m i t e d u s e o f c o p y r i g h t e d m a t e r i a l s u n d e r c e r t a i n c o n d i t i o n s F a i r U s e l i m i t s t h e a m o u n t o f m a t e r i a l t h a t m a y b e u s e d F o r a l l o t h e r p e r m i s s i o n s a n d r e q u e s t s c o n t a c t t h e U N I V E R S I T Y O F S O U T H F L O R I D A L I B R A R I E S O R A L H I S T O R Y P R O G R A M a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a 4 2 0 2 E F o w l e r A v e n u e L I B 1 2 2 T a m p a F L 3 3 6 2 0
DR LARRY MONLEY Hewitt : t I am speaking with Dr Larry Monley this afternoon as part of the Silver Anniversary Oral History Project Dr Monley came to USF as a professor of Chemistry and is now a professor of Education Let me ask you first of all, what was your first contact with the University of South Florida and what made you choose to come here to work? Monley : t Well, I had a friend that was with me when I was in graduate school at the University of Florida He had been in contact with the two schools that were opening up at that time It was Florida Presbyterian and the University of South Florida They both opened at the same time I had really not followed closely the developments The chairman of my department called me in one day and asked me if I knew Dr Ashford I didn't know him, but apparently somehow he had received some word of me being in the chemistry area and so he asked me to come down and see about joining the initial faculty After I got down here that seemed like a possibility of providing a little bit more security for my family I was teaching at East Tennessee State at the time, and they were in a bad situation because they had ten or eleven schools that couldn't change their salary structure unless all of them changed at the same time So there wasn't much prospect for financial advancement at that point I thought there would be a little bit more here Hewitt : t Do you remember what your first impressions of the campus were when you arrived at USF? Monley : t When I came there were three buildings I could not actually get into the Chemistry building, which was where all the sciences were going to be taught
2 because they had just finished polishing the floors and they put the ribbons across Until the Board of Regents' representatives came in and accepted the building officially, you couldn't get in to see what was going on That was quite interesting The first year we had a big mound of sand over where the old library building was It was about as high as the present building is It sat there for two years just so the weight of it would compact the ground enough to build a structure that would support the library books Every time we went out to the parking lot it was like a sand storm because we didn't have all the nice grass areas as yet The sand would come along and we would have little pits in all the paint of the cars Everybody was repainting their cars all the time So it was kind of out in the boon docks, but now everything has grown up around the University Hewitt : t When you arrived, was your appointment both in the College of Liberal Arts and the College of Basic Studies? Monley : t Almost everybody had joint appointments at that point in time My previous experience had not been one that really supported the concept of the basic studies area, but under Dr Clark's leadership when the science program in the Physical Sciences was really a good, solid academic program It wasn't a substitute for those who couldn't handle the basic material It was a good, solid course So I stayed with that That was for a couple of years Then as it evolved a little bit we had the opportunity to decide whether they were going to stay with the Basic Studies College or with the Liberal Arts College Since my training was primarily in chemistry and I was rather interested in the upper level work and introductory graduate work, I went with the Liberal Arts College
Hewitt : Now given that the school had just opened when you arrived, a Chemistry department would mean more sorts of lab equipment and that kind of thing than most departments Did you spend the first year trying to put those labs together or were the materials ordered already? Nonley : t There were alot of materials that were ordered thanks to Dr Clark He was hired earlier and had gone through a series of catalogues and had done alot of consulting with different people What we needed for our first year was pretty well supplied Where we ran into difficulty was when we started our junior year That was in 1962 Then we needed to tool up for those more advanced courses at the junior and senior levels There was a good bit of misunderstanding about that because they had thought they had supplied all of our needs when they came in with the original allocation of the materials Of course we had some difficulty in getting that squared away and so on That is a matter of perception I think Alot of people don't realize how much equipment that it really takes to do a first rate job with lab sciences Hewitt : t Alot of people who I have interviewed have mentioned that they taught various courses in the Chem lab including things like sculpture classes and various arts and theater classes How did you go about having the Chem labs be set up for chemistry courses and having all of these other people have courses moving through there? It seems that it must have been a constant pace Monley : t It really wasn't all that difficult because most of our labs were set so that we had reasonable amounts of storage for the number of students that came through Now we couldn't do that under the crowded conditions that we have now Initially, for example, in the Quantitative Analysis Lab, each 3
4 student would have his own storage space for his berets and all that So he would just put it away and as long as you weren't actually there, they would just use the table tops and that was it We had a number of misconceptions that had to go through alot of changes the first few years In fact one of the kinds of things where they eventually ended up with the Geology Lab which was a lab that had no electrical connections or any of that It had glass table tops and they expected they would put a room of about 30 analytical balances in there and people were expected to run in, weigh something, and then go trudging back through the stock rooms and down the hall and so on like that to where they would use the chemical Obviously that didn't work out too well They did recognize that they needed an analytical balance area, but it wasn't quite what they really planned The other thing that was rather interesting was that they realized the dangers in Chemistry labs because sometimes you have need for a shower or this type of thing So we all had showers in the lab, but we didn't have any drains under them Hewitt : t Careful planning! It must not have taken too long for the showers to fill up that way When you think about those early years at USF, what would you say was the relationship between faculty, administrators, staff, and students? Monley : t It was more a group of people that were interested in doing whatever they could do toward a common goal We thought that this was an opportunity to set in motion a first grade university There wasn't much in the way of concern about who got credit for this and that type of thing, so it was more a big team Dr Allen provided excellent leadership in that regard as far as the faculty was concerned If you were meeting him socially, he would
know about the different things that other members of the family were doing, so we were all working together on that As I have mentioned to you earlier, even in the listing in the directory, there was no distinction between secretaries and full professors and this type of thing They were all listed the same way Then there was a little asterisk to say that this was part of the teaching faculty, and you will notice that when they went through the administration way, there is a small space in there for the president's office and that is sandwiched right in among the library and all the other activities It wasn't overloaded with the prestige administration I should probably give you more details The social activities tended to hold all the faculty and staff together rather extensively so that it wasn't just the faculty who were looking at the University as a major activity, that was a center of activity for the entire family Much more so than at most universities that I have seen Of the total number of full-time faculty appointments, there were only 80 of us to start In addition to that we had all of our maintenance groups and so on I don't know how many we actually had in total, but it was a very close-knit group, and we all had the feeling that there was some kind of adventure that was going on It was a privileged to be part of it and to actually do something that wasn't going to be done again for a long time I'm not real sure whether that spirit still prevails or not Hewitt : t Do you think that the faculty actually had significant input into the creation of policies, departments, and programs at that early date? Monley : t Oh yes No question about it In fact during the first Christmas vacation it was a normal, expected day for those of us who were supposedly on vacation (for classes were not being met) We would start meeting in 5
one group around about eight in the morning and we would finish there and go on to another group so that around about ten at night we would be through with the meetings for the day and then start all over again the next day I don't think they could get that kind of dedication from a group again, but everyone knew that whatever we did those first couple of years would dictate the general direction of what was going on, and it was a significant effort made to see that whatever was happening in one branch of the University, the rest of them were involved with it It wasn't that they just knew that it existed, but you were involved with it We had discussion as to whether this was the best way to go or not One of the kinds of things that came out of that, in about the third or fourth year Harry Kendall and I had taught a course the first semester in Chemistry as well as Physics, so that if you finished the year by taking one more semester of Chemistry or one more semester of Physics, well you would have a whole year of that subject and we would team teach that He would teach one day and I would teach the next day Whenever the students would get short changed because some of our backgrounds were a little different in presenting it, before they would leave, the other would get up and point out the things that were significant in their disciplines When we tried to do that with a larger group we had to have a total of eight people Four Chemistry faculty and four Physics faculty paired off working together At that point it fell apart because already we were beginning to grow to the point that specialization was the thing of the day Hewitt : I assume that you actually helped establish the program of the Chemistry department since you were there so early What direction did you want to see the Chemistry program go that might be either innovative or different from the traditional Chemistry department? 6
7 Monley : t Generally most Chemistry departments are, for the first four years, a matter of so many prescribed courses You go through the routines and that is it We had an opportunity for alot of the students to work in the labs with the faculty We really didn't have research funds as such Officially the school was designated as a four-year school So officially they were saying that we weren't planning graduate level work, but at the same time, even in my interview, there was some kind of indication and discussion as to how loads would be adjusted when you started handling graduate level work We had a problem with the legislature designating it as a four-year school, but at the same time, we felt like a different kind of basis for the first four years was important We wanted it to be a solid basis that had everything that other more traditional programs had, but we worked alot more closely with the students individually Many of the students that were in the first group, by the time they had graduated, they had already had the equivalent of a couple of years of research experience working in individual labs Hewitt : t I notice on the form that you filled out for me that you mentioned early on that you were a member of both the Space Committee and the Academic Regulations Committee Could you explain what the Space Committee was? Monley : t At that time the Space Committee was the one who decided whether this laboratory could be used for a Chemistry class or whether it would be allocated for some other purpose One of the earlier problems that we had with the Space Committee was trying to provide backup services so that over in the basement of the UC, where we had audio/visual and where they repaired the TV sets and monitors, everybody was beginning to build an empire So if we could expand and get half of this next building coming up assigned to us
and so on So we had to go through and make allocations of space, and it was good place to lose alot of friends There was input on that Space Committee, representatives from all the different academic as well as administrative areas, so it was not a case where somebody or I decided that this would be a great Chemistry school and give two or three reasons that the Chemistry building was built first We thought that you could teach biology and physics in a chemistry laboratory, but you could not teach alot of chemistry in some of the physics laboratories because they didn't have the kind of equipment and so on Hewitt : t That committee must have been incredibly busy those first few years as the University was adding buildings Monley : t They really were The Space Committee was involved in making decisions on the priority of which buildings would come first and this type of thing You can see trying to choose between a Fine Arts Theater and a Physics building That is a difficult choice, so there was alot of give and take in those different things Hewitt : t Now what did the Academic Regulations Committee do? What was their responsibilities? Monley : t Well, the Academic Regulations Committee is still functioning Whatever rules and regulations that the University provides to maintain the quality and the standards of academic excellence that we initially set out for, that's the amount of times you can miss, and all kinds of details If a student comes in now and he fails out because of low grade point, in order to get back in he has to petition the Academic Regulations Committee ; and then they look at it to see if there are any extenuating circumstances that 8
9 you can set the regulations aside for the benefit of the student So it is a case where the students have an opportunity to be considered on an individual basis--whether or not some family breakup or illness in the family or some unforeseen circumstance or maybe a few years have elapsed and it looks like we now have a mature student instead of a kid that is just wasting his dad's money So all those are considerations and whatever the University regulations are that might be set aside for the benefit of the student Of course if we can get one who started out wrong and is now going to do a good job, then the purpose of the University has been realized to a great extent Hewitt : t Now you have a couple of newspaper clippings here that we were looking at One involves registration of students in that very early year Since now students are getting adjusted to computerized registration and you barely see faculty members when you register for courses these days, could you just describe what registration was like for students in those early days? Monley : t They had some kind of a general orientation program, similar to what our Focus programs are now, so you had a general idea of what college was to be about Within the assigned duties of all faculty members, you got involved as an advisor for a group of students coming through and so you worked through that advising function trying to sort out whether or not somebody who thinks he is interested in science, but might have to go back and take some remedial work because he didn't get that interest in science while he was still in high school He is just now getting it, and this type of thing So there was a great deal of informal advising, assessment of the student's interests and abilities I think a fairly significant effort on the part of most of the faculty to try to get students to take a broad
1 0 outlook first rather than to say, "Well I want to be a neurosurgeon approach and what do I have to do to get to be one ." All of our programs were geared so that it would meet those kinds of requirements, but we didn't set everything else aside In those days when you signed up for courses, you paid for a certain minimum number of hours I think it was something like 12 hours If you took 13 hours, that didn't cost you any more If you took 15 hours, it still didn't cost you any more And so the fee structure was that it encouraged students to try areas where now the situation has been modified a bit, trying to make every course cost accountable We find alot of nonaffluent students coming out They would say that they think a course in European History as an elective might be fine, but they couldn't afford the extra $50 to take that I think in that one administrative decision, which was done at the state level, that way of charging for the courses has undermined the idea that a university is not Just place to go to get what you have to have, it's a place to go to find out what you can be That's quite a big difference in the outlook We would try to counsel the students and sometimes even match them with particular interests and so on If there was an English professor that was noted for his poetry or something like that and the student had indicated some interest along those lines, we would try and match these things, which, of course, the computer doesn't do very well Hewitt : t There is also another newspaper photograph of you and Dr Gessman and Dr Whitaker standing with President Allen, I guess right after the Johns Committee report came out What was your experience of the Johns Committee in that era of USF history?
1 1 Monley : t Well, the Johns Committee was somewhat like the McCarthy era in national politics, where a man who was influential, politically at the state level, decided that he would monitor the standards of morality and so on for the University And certain things he didn't think were acceptable They would have secret meetings and committees down at the Holiday Inn and all that to see if they could find somebody that was a little communistic or something of that nature Or somebody who said that they would sign it, but they didn't believe in it when they signed the loyalty oath and this type of thing It was really a bad situation because it undermines the essential freedom of the University professor to say what needs to be said If you can't bring up new or controversial ideas on a University campus, then you really can't bring them up anywhere So that effort didn't work out too well Finally with Dr Allen's resistance here and alot of places finally counteracted that political influence, but Senator Johns was very powerful in the state legislature His private committees were used as weapons to spy upon everybody The University needs, of course, to have that freedom of speech, but you get that attacked from both sides Shortly after that the law still said that people who were known communists and so on were not to be given the facilities of the University for speaking Following through the guidelines that he was given as an administrator, why Dr Allen cancelled a proposed visit by somebody who was admittedly a communist He was under a widespread attack from the American Association of University Professors and this type of thing Dr Allen was the one that was being attacked although he was only following the law We had one of our faculty members get up in that meeting of the professors in that organization, and he explained Dr Allens' position and said that we shouldn't attack him for being involved personally when he is only enforcing the law He has no
choice He either does that or his job is gone He was always outspoken and in favor of freedom of speech wherever he could legally do that An interesting quarrel to that is when someone came to Dr Aliens' defense Some of the other younger professors that are still with the University took the position that this one defending Dr Allen ought to be dropped out of the organization simply because he had a different view So the enthusiasm goes rampid, and whenever you get a mass movement of that type, that was it But organizations of instructional, professorial groups at that time were concerned about that kind of thing We need to protect the freedom of speech because then if you have a new idea you can present it without being attacked That is what a university needs to be able to do Now, of course, our representatives are concerned about salaries and mundane things Hewitt : t Well, we haven't been scared by something like the Johns Committee in a long time It makes you think about those issues more closely Monley : t Yes At the state level it was the same type of thing when I was Chairman of the Chemistry Department I was interviewing some prospective staff members from one of our sister schools in the university system I got a long distance phone call, unsolicited, from other members of that faculty where they called to warn me that he had certain radical views and so on and so forth like that It's kind of scary As it turned out, for other reasons, he wasn't considered It is scary to think that somebody behind the scenes can blackball a person without any professional basis for that Hewitt : t Now when did you shift from the Chemistry department to the Education program? 1 2
1 3 Monley : t That was about '66 I guess At that point in time we had a number of joint programs going with the College of Education All of those programs which were programs in the sciences were approved by the science department as meeting the science requirements that we thought were basic and essential for preparing a teacher Even today that still holds That was one of the kinds of things which I think underlie the original group of people that it was a university standard for that preparation of teachers, not just the College of Education There has been, historically, a good bit of antagonism between colleges of education and colleges where subject matter is their bread and butter When I taught at East Tennessee State College, we had a professor from the College of Education there who maintained that you could teach Chemistry even if you did not know Chemistry That if you knew how to teach, that you could teach what you didn't know Well, I wasn't in the College of Education then, of course, I took a dim view of that When we first came there was so much emphasis on basic education, and we all had joint appointments and the opportunity to really know some individuals on both sides of the fence became clear And so I was doing an awful lot of work with teachers at the time When one of our faculty, who was in the College of Education, decided to transfer to Florida Atlantic, that left an opening Someone in the College of Education went to the Science supervisor at the state level and asked for recommendations So out of that I became involved with the College of Education At that point in time I was already involved not just with the teachers, but with the development of the talented students The State Science Fair and the State Science Talent Search are programs that are part of the activities of the Florida Foundation of Teacher Scientists I was the first representative
1 4 from the University of South Florida to be involved in that Since I had previous ties with Florida State and the University of Florida I knew alot of science professionals We had rotating assignments on that Board of Directors They were three years and they rotated in many of the off years All total I spent nine years on that Board of Directors I was chairman of that group a couple of times so that we had the responsibilities of setting up the guidelines, doing the recruiting, recruiting qualified personnel to judge the quality of presentations and this type of thing To give you some kind of an idea of how successful that particular program was, we had one year a competition at the national level and of all the states, there were 13 categories and we had first place placement in 9 of the 13 Hewitt : t Now was that considered part of the University out reach program or was this something that you were just interested in? Monley : t Everyone was expected to represent the University to whatever constituency you happen to have Cisco over in Speech would be out working with all kinds of debating activities and this type of thing That was expected as a normal part of our situation Now, whenever you get involved in that, well they think of that as something that you shouldn't do unless you are assigned to do it That was rather the anticipated result of the approach to it at that point in time Hewitt .* t Now alot of people have mentioned that in the mid-'60s the College of Basic Studies began to be dismantled, although I guess it was several years before it was fully dismantled, and there was a general shift in the balance between teaching and research in terms of expectations about what faculty should be doing As someone who was both in the Natural Sciences and in the College of Education during that period, did those sorts of changes affect
1 5 the kinds of programs that you dealt with or the kinds of things you wanted to do personally? Monley : t No question about that In fact doing the kinds of things that I was doing with teachers--while it might be something that they commented on favorably and say that it was good that you were doing that--the changes were such that they said that it really wasn't the kind of thing that we should encourage our faculty to be doing We ought to be encouraging our faculty to be doing laboratory research so that your name will be on that publication That somewhere in North Dakota or Liverpool and so on, they will begin to be aware of our existence So along about the mid-'60s there was a very strong transition and even today if you get a qualified person in one of the science areas, the presumption is that he is a qualified teacher and that he is doing a good job of teaching, but if he just does that the chances of him ever getting any advancement is not very good Hewitt : t What do you think were the forces that put these changes in motion, given that the early vision of USF was so clearly an accent on learning in the meaningful sense of that phrase? Monley : t I think here, although myself I'm not a laboratory researcher, at that point in time I had directed more graduates students than the rest of the faculty and the Chemistry department combined But clearly if you are going to be a major state university, a really serious part of your mission is to develop new learning That scholarship program for the faculty to develop new learning In most cases the historical pattern has been that if your emphasizing that then you don't have time for the other We have a number of excellent researchers that are excellent teachers, that will tell you that they could not be excellent teachers if they weren't keeping up with
things all the time And they find the best way to keep up is to be working on the things themselves But there is a unique distinction between being able to provide the experience of recent years to incoming groups of students and then getting out with your machete and cutting out a new field somewhere I don't think the University has ever quite come to grips with that as yet, and they have not been honest enough in analyzing it for them to say that they need to have people doing the kinds of things that they do well We have some teachers that teach well, even though they may not be able to do research, and we need to have some researchers doing research and nothing else because they don't teach well There are some individuals that are excellent teachers in a small one-to-one exposure with a graduate student, but if you put them in front of a whole class, it's a fiasco I think we need teachers of all types in all circumstances So I look at research as a responsibility of the University to teach organized groups outside the University where there happens to be industry or school systems and so on But to teach those They are already practicing the state of the art and what you are trying to do is teach them what could be done beyond the state of the art You can call that research if you want, but in many ways what research is is a teaching kind of function, but it has never been so identified That is one of the reasons that you get the controversy Hewitt : t When you think back on the atmosphere in those early years at USF and the atmosphere on the campus now, what would you say have been the biggest changes? Monley : t Probably the biggest change is just the inevitable effects of growth--instead of having a number of small units that are tied together 1 6
1 7 because the large unit is small enough that you can manage it If you take the original Chemistry department, for example, there were three chemists besides Dr Ashford in that first group That is really not enough for a department, but now we have 20 or 30 people in the Chemistry department, and unless somebody is fairly aggressive about trying to look for new ideas and new associations, he could get lost in just one subdivision of that department So the growth is perhaps the biggest inevitable change that you begin to become more and more isolated as a consequence of that growth The other, I think, what I think is a mistake in the approach to try too hard to be absolutely accountable for everything that you do in a uniform way A history teacher cannot be accountable for what he is doing in the same way that a physics teacher can They both teach, but the ways that they teach and the immediate consequences and so on, you find that over a period of time your general ideas may be much more influenced by what you have learned about a certain area of history or a certain incident in history, but you can't say now this is worth so many dollars when you go out to interview for a job If I'm able to do this type of thing in physics, why you can put a dollar value on that You get immediate response for it So it's a mixed bag that the growth has been a big factor and isolation resulting from the growth Then recently the attempts to try to improve the efficiency of the university system I'm not really sure that a university is by its nature designed to be very efficient You can't say that this is the way we are going to get new ideas, and we are going to get them the most efficient way If you already knew how those ideas would generate we would just program it into a computer and be done with it Hewitt : t With the growth of the University and the isolation that you talked about in terms of people getting isolated even within subfields of their departments,
do you think that there is anything left of the original notions of interdisciplinary education and the all university approach? Monley : t I believe that some joint appointments where you participate actively in more than one department, would be beneficial I recognize that when it comes to promotion, well then you have several bosses and that has a difficulty with that But when I first joined the College of Education, at that time I was very active in presenting papers related to science education in the southeastern region and along the Midwest area Those were the really interesting developments They said to me, "Do you mean somebody who is really trained could actually be working with the College of Education, not separating those ." And I said, "Yes, that is the way we do it and all of our students take their courses from their subject specialists, not from just the education area ." In many times, you get the collaboration after the fact, but I think our education is deficient because we don't emphasize that in our interrelations early Dr Martin, for example, is listed as Professor of Biology as well as Chemistry now because he is doing research on red tide organisms and things of that nature Well why should you have to wait until after you have been very successful? In your first year, if he had some training that would bring those things together earlier maybe he or some of the others might be farther along Instead of being isolated we ought to bring them together Hewitt : t Do you think that in the coming years at USF that there will be a swing back toward more cooperation among the departments or emphasis on general education? I know that there are now many attempts to try and revamp the distribution requirements and get back towards a more liberal 1 8
OPRIPC5 arts-humanities kind of core Do you think that is possible once the University had gotten this big and specialized? Monley : t I think they'll make progress because they really are determined in a number of areas, but I don't think it's Just the basic core that I think of as being important I think alot of times you can get someone who is teaching something that is not part of the basic core, but teaching it for a select group Dr Kruschwitz teaches an excellent physics course for non-science majors These types of things ought to be encouraged and developed to a greater degree than they are I've heard a tremendous number of favorable comments about that course When we talk about our emphasis on aging, why it's not just aging in terms of your physical abilities, it's emotional abilities and other kinds of things as well I hope that it can come back, but I'm not really optimistic The recent years of history haven't indicated that it tends to go that way Hewitt : t That is why it's good to get the earliest years on tape so we remember where we came from Thank you very much 1 9