C. Blythe Andrews

Citation
C. Blythe Andrews

Material Information

Title:
C. Blythe Andrews
Series Title:
Otis R. Anthony African Americans in Florida oral history project
Creator:
Andrews, C. Blythe
Anthony, Otis R
Black History Research Project of Tampa
University of South Florida Libraries -- Florida Studies Center. -- Oral History Program
University of South Florida -- Tampa Library
Place of Publication:
Tampa, Fla
Publisher:
University of South Florida Tampa Library
Publication Date:
Language:
English
Physical Description:
1 sound file (95 min.) : digital, MPEG4 file + ;

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida sentinel bulletin (Tampa, Fla. : 1945) ( lcsh )
African Americans -- Newspapers -- Florida ( lcsh )
African Americans -- Florida ( lcsh )
African Americans -- History -- Florida ( lcsh )
Genre:
Oral history. ( local )
Online audio. ( local )
interview ( marcgt )
Oral history ( local )
Online audio ( local )

Notes

Summary:
C. Blythe Andrews, Jr. discusses his family's newspaper, the Florida Sentinel Bulletin. He also comments on the effects of integration and Tampa politics.
Venue:
Interview conducted February 15, 1978.
General Note:
Other interviewers for the Black History Research Project of Tampa were Fred Beaton, Joyce Dyer, Herbert Jones, and Shirley Smith.
Statement of Responsibility:
interviewed by Otis R. Anthony and members of the Black History Research Project of Tampa.

Record Information

Source Institution:
University of South Florida Library
Holding Location:
University of South Florida
Rights Management:
All applicable rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier:
020798020 ( ALEPH )
436221673 ( OCLC )
A31-00004 ( USFLDC DOI )
a31.4 ( USFLDC Handle )

Postcard Information

Format:
Audio

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This item has the following downloads:


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segment idx 0time text length 657 Otis Anthony: We began about-the period of about 1500, okay? We're doin' it sort of chronological and-a kind of chronological history right now that sums up basic some of the cigar industry coming of the railroads, and the black troops who came into Tampa with Roosevelt in 19-, during the Spanish-American War. So we're pretty much summin' up that section. We have a man by the name of Tony Pizzo who we're going to talk to about that. And we have all the materials on that. When we get into the period of World War I and the 1920s we need to know if there are any old Sentinels that we can get into to help us-assist us in that area. You go back that far?
171 C. Blythe Andrews, Jr.: Well, we go back that far, but I wouldn't know-
217 OA: Oh, they did?
3119 CA: -anything that we would have up until 1945. The paper is much older than that, but we don't have any old copies of-
414 OA: Oh, I see.
547 CA: that dates back beyond forty-five [1945].
6294 OA: Okay. That's the information, too. We need to know how far we could go back in-okay, the other thing that we need to from you is when could we have, or could we have, the opportunity to go through the old papers or old records, that type of thing, and pick up whatever relevant information.
79 CA: Yeah.
8OA: Okay.
941 CA: We'll set up some times that I'll be-
10OA: (inaudible)
11CA: (inaudible)
12692 OA: Okay. Well, what we decided to do was just ask everybody to just jot down on a piece of-the kind of question that they would like to ask you about the project. The main things that we want to get a history of the Sentinel, okay, as part and parcel of the black media, and your feelings about its contribution. That type of thing. We want to get a biography on you. We want to get a biography on your father, so we may have to break this down into different sessions. I don't know. But however much time you have time today. And then we need to get an idea from you of the kind of people that you think we need to talk to really get a comprehensive history of black folk in this community.
1331 CA: Where do you want to start?
1455 OA: Well, let's start with the history of the Bulletin-
1530 CA: All I'm going to tell you.
1618 OA: Okay (laughs).
17345 CA: I've come across something myself. I thought we dated back to 1919, but I came across this little book here. And this guy here is the- is supposed to have been the founder of the Florida Sentinel back in the 1890s. The guy's name is Mathew Louis. Florida's first black newspaper. And he supposedly started this paper in 1887, in Gainesville.
1853 OA: What did they call it then, the Florida Sentinel?
1925 CA: The Florida Sentinel.
2033 OA: Twelve Histories by Dr. Muir.
21CA: Yeah.
22176 OA: And he was in material-I've read something and they called it something else, too, around in the 1920s or so. The Challenger or something like that? The Bulletin or-it was-
2332 CA: It was the Florida Bulletin.
2463 OA: Was that true? Something like that? Was it in Jacksonville?
25137 Herbert Jones: Okay, there was a paper that came out of St. Petersburg. It was a black paper. What was the name of that one, do you know?
2694 CA: No, that paper's relatively new. It was the Weekly Challenger. It's about eight years old.
27OA: Was the paper ever located in Jacksonville?
28225 CA: Yeah. That's where we date from. Where my daddy-I mean, my grandfather-had it then, in 1919, in Jacksonville. That's W.W. Andrews. In 1931 the Depression took it (inaudible) in 1931. Then my daddy started it back in 1945.
29OA: What kind of atmosphere was there during that time for a black newspaper, starting it or-?
3074 C. Blythe Andrews: I don't date back that far. I date back a long way but-
31114 OA: No. I know you don't date back that-but, I mean, you know, in terms of information that's been shared with me.
32427 CA: Well, it's the same problem that exists today. People consider-the advertisers consider a black paper-and black radio stations-as what they called a secondary medium. We get the "droppings" of advertising, the advertising budget. During those days circulation paid the bills for black newspapers. When in all other newspapers advertising paid your profit, paid your bills, paid your (inaudible). So we're just the opposite.
3369 OA: Okay, so how did your dad go about starting the Florida Sentinel?
34608 CA: He was an official of Central Life Insurance Company. He sold his stock in thirty-nine [1939] and became a writer for a real estate broker and a writer for the Tampa Bulletin. He also had this lodge thing and-the Tampa Bulletin was more or less associated with the Grand Union Pallbearers, Paul Berry's organiz-still with his organization and they refused to put out the news of what they were doing in the paper, even though he was a columnist. So he started his own paper called the (inaudble) because he'd been in it all his life except for that period from thirty-one [1931] to forty-five [1945]. So-
35236 The Lily White Lodge was an African-American organization that provides burial benefits and health care. The Andrews family was highly involved, and C. Blythe Andrews, Sr., was the state organization's grand president in the late 1950s.
3687 OA: So he just started out as typin' and xeroxin' it, or mimeographin' himself or-else?
37381 CA: No. He brought a press, what you call a flatbed press and two linotypes and he had a building on Central so it was-it would have been right around the corner from the building. And, of course, during those days, as I said earlier, the paper existed on circulation. Very little advertising. You'll see when you go through those issues back then, there's very little advertising.
38OA: What was the main source of information given in the paper?
3919 CA: The same thing-
4038 OA: Same thing that's (inaudible) now?
41122 CA: Church and social news, just a mirage of all types of news that the white papers wouldn't print and still don't print.
42108 OA: What role did the Sentinel exhibit on Tampa early history, particularly to economics and social aspects?
43151 CA: You mean you want what role did that it played on uplifting the community? What role did he [Andrews Sr.] see himself playin' or the paper playin'?
44177 OA: Well, at that time, when there were no black policeman, would-got some old pictures here. The first black policeman back in-fifty-one [1951]. The first black policeman down-
4599 CA: Of course they couldn't arrest any white folks, you know. They just arrested blacks on Central.
46OA: Yeah, pictures are gonna be another area that you could help us with-on-we really, really-
4735 CA: I got a lot of 'em stored away.
4813 OA: Oh, yeah.
4937 (Several voices speak simultaneously)
5026 Shirley Smith: (inaudible)
51188 CA: That's at old Phillips Field, you know, where we used to play the all the ballgames. The campaign for street lighting, paved streets, which is during the (inaudible) thirties [1930's].
52Pause in recording
53211 OA: Were the black newspapers organized, in terms of-were there publishers groups really communcating across the state or across the nation, similar to what you have with the Publisher's Association (inaudible)?
5479 CA: Yeah. We had it. It was a smaller association then, but it was very strong.
5521 OA: A state, or what?
56350 CA: Nationwide. It's the NNPA, National Newspaper Publisher's Association. Of course, that campaign went right through the fifties [1950s]-fifty-nine[1959], the Bulletin, more or less, almost failed, so we bought-that's how we became-from the Florida Sentinel to the Florida Sentinel Bulletin. We started publishing twice a week in fifty-nine [1959].
57559 But the campaign since my time, from when I got back here in fifty-one [1951]-I used to work there when we first started when I was, you know, in junior and high school so- the campaign from forty-five [1945] through, say, to 1960, was the sure thing, more black policemen, more street lighting, more paved streets, playgrounds-because we had none in those days-and-I know when I was in high school we played on outdoor basketball courts. You know, we had no gyms for our high schools. And, we played basketball on outdoor courts and so-that was the campaign.
58463 And then in fifty-nine [1959] we started twice a week because of the-well, the Bulletin was failin' and we had no way to get our funeral notices, the white papers wouldn't print funeral notices. And they still don't, twenty-almost twenty years later-nineteen years later. So that was the reason we came out twice a week, to accommodate the funeral directors, who were instrumental in gettin' us to come out with a weekend edition, to print their funeral notices.
59206 OA: I noticed something, I think I read in one of your father's articles. What was the connection between the [Marcus] Garvey influence in the early part of the fifties [1950s]? Did he ever talk about that?
60CA: Yeah, he talked about that a-
6184 OA: Was that a real strong strand in his thinking and writing, or was-it was just a-
62CA: What, back to Africa move?
63OA: -something that dominated the period? Yeah.
64649 CA: No, I don't think so. Both he and I are differed. It's like, you know, because of the chronology of age. Just like you and I would differ because of-on certain issues, because of age, the age difference. But I-he never really-he was just a promoter of black businesses and other things, as I told you, you know, I mean, and he used those as examples of what blacks had to do to get ahead in business. Because regardless of what many of us think, this country is based on economics. And the bad thing that I've always contended is guys like Otis Anthony and like, these young people here, are in divisions where there's really no money, you know?
65OA: Yeah.
66458 CA: And that people like you, are-better minds-I'm trying to say. Well, you take those-you take everybody you can think of, Goosby [Jones], Augusta [Thomas], all of us, see, are not in the main-they're in the mainstream of middle-class income, see, but they're not-we're not in the mainstream of upper middle-class and wealth because we aren't in businesses. See? And this is what, one of the few things I agreed with him on, you know, that our better minds-
67385 Well, even during the sixties [1960s], the fights during the sixties [1960s]-you take James Hammond, you take Goosby Jones, the guys that were in the forefront of the fight of the sixties [1960s], the early sixties [1960s],well, hell, they're down-they're hired by the power structure now and they can only do so much to better conditions of not only their people, but themselves also.
6852 OA: Because we don't have that kind of independence.
69213 CA: Right. But then on the other hand, you have to look at-these banks aren't gonna loan you any money, you know, to go into business. And we're just in a vise. You know, we're really in bad shape in this country.
7048 HJ: That's what we were talking about, remember?
71624 CA: We're in bad shape. I went down-this will be personal-and I went down the other day and Columbia Bank-that's where we do all of our banking-and I said, "I need $10,000." [Bank worker:] "Oh, no problem." So I went to sign the papers and my wife just goes in and comes in after school and signed it. And I went in and she said; "Well, look here, we've got a mortgage on your property over here on 14th Street." I said, "You're a damn liar if you're puttin' a mortgage on my property." And the president of the bank told me, he said I can get the money uncollateralized, you don't put up nothing. "Oh, I'm sorry." You know.
72819 Well, I say, okay. I turned out the bank, the branch bank over there on Adamo, that's about three weeks ago. He called me, "You act like a redneck." I said, "Listen, Mr. Grimaldi, I run $1.5 million through that damn bank every year. You know, I've got the maximum in savings in there, in that bank, and I want to be treated just like Dr. Stoto and Dr. Loto and all them others. I was tellin' about all the rest of them who got some money in your bank and I'm not gonna mortgage anything for a lousy $10,000." [Banker:] "Come on in and get the money." But I didn't have-haven't had-hadn't had any money in there-that's we didn't-I'm talkin' about checkin', now. We run that kind of money through in checking, a year, from the three businesses: Tampa Park, this one and the [Lily White] Lodge. He told me to go to hell.
7362 OA: So every black startin' up could actually forget about it.
7446 CA: So you can imagine what I'm talkin' about.
7516 OA: Yeah, I see.
76242 CA: You go in there to get $500, they're gonna want the car or a second mortgage on your house. And I know some teachers right out in my neighborhood who have come across that kind of thing. And that's not right. See. It's just not right. So-
77797 We're off on a tangent now but the mainstream is that we just aren't in that. It's just-you don't know what we go through here to get advertising. And people tell you all kinds of things, like Pantry Pride. They've got a big store out there, blacks doin' all kinds of business there. I was in the grocery business, so I know they must be doin' $40,000 a week there. If we were doin' $25 [thousand] a week over there, I know they're doin' $40,000 there. "Oh, Andrews, we're havin' budget is just down to nothin' and well just have to put you in next year, in seventy-nine [1979]." They dropped out. Now, you're talkin' about a $16,000 a year account. They don't give a damn about us. You're secondary. Eckerd Drugs, the same thing. You remember when, last year, we had Eckerd Drugs. The same thing.
78OA: Yeah.
79352 CA: Here's a company doin' right at a billion dollars a year and blacks buy like hell there, but you're secondary. The newspaper is secondary. Black newspapers are secondary to white folks. So that's another about $18,000 a year we lost in-so you're talkin' about $34,000 a year in advertising revenues that we lost but they don't give a damn about us.
80340 OA: I believe that. I once read a statistics once-I think-the-what's the group that prints this Focus? What's the group? The Center for-prints Focus. I think they had a statistic in there once that said that all the black business assets combined does not amount to the assets of the last of the Fortune 500, list of Fortune 500 businesses.
81690 CA: Who are your biggest black businesses? It's Motown and they do about $50 million, Motown records. Oh, you can think of ten, fifteen businesses right here in Tampa that do that kind of money. Singleton Shrimp, $60 million. They had the big story in the paper. Singleton Shrimp Company is bigger than our biggest business in the whole United States. So we just make up one percent of the per capita income, businesswise, in this country, all the black businesses combined. But it's not because we aren't serving, it's because they have the capital, the money, to spend. And if they don't spend it with black businesses, if they don't give the Otis Anthonys a chance, if we've got an idea-
82506 If a white boy goes in there with a idea he'll get the money without all this mess that they put blacks through, if Otis Anthony's got a hell of an idea, he's a young man with a bright future, they should let you have the money. But they won't do it. Got a program here, just came in this morning, about Minority Bank Credit Line, Borg-Warner, Million Dollar program. This is the largest black bank in the country, Independence, in Chicago. They're puttin' $9.6 in black banks. That's a drop in the bucket.
8310 OA: It is.
84216 CA: And they've got Popular Bank here, of Tampa, who have a million dollars to loan somebody. The Popular Bank of Tampa is one of sixty minority-owned banks. I don't know where in hell they get that "minority-owned."
8542 OA: That's what I was (inaudible).
86CA: (inaudible) You know, this is "bull," man.
87269 OA: Okay, you mentioned that you used to work from time to time with the paper after fifty-one [1951]. What role, after the-let's say for example, the Brown decision, can you remember what role the Sentinel played in terms of that historic decision? That type of thing.
88CA: Well, we're fightin'-as you'll see in the old bound copies, we were fightin' for the implementation of that which they (inaudible) took, in Tampa, how many years, about seventeen years, didn't they, to implement.
89157 OA: Anything that you can think of you can mention to us in that period, you know, from the Brown decision up to the present in terms of the Sentinel's role.
90CA: You know, we've got copies back to forty-five [1945]. You can go through there and-
91OA: Okay.
92118 CA: I know when I first got back, of course it was before that decision, see, that was in fifty-four [1954] wasn't it?
9312 OA: Um humm.
94446 CA: Before I got back I know, I'd just come out of the Army and I got back with a masters degree in journalism. I went down into the city court to start coverin' the incidents down there. And Judge Johnson had just gotten on the bench-Bob Johnson. I went walkin' up there, man, you know, where the other white reporters were. "What's you doin' up here boy? Get back there in the back." You know. I never forgot that as long as I live, you know.
95513 So, then I worked out a system. I said I wasn't gonna be outdone. I worked out a system with one of the officers down there-white officers-to get the reports. Then I'd just have to sit in the back of the courtroom and strain and listen to the results of the cases, you know. Sittin' in the back in the-what you call the buzzard's roost, in those days, it's a hell of a thing, man. And the country was worse. See, the county was worse. They wouldn't even give you the-you know, "Oh, the 'nigger' newspaperman."
96But, those are experiences that I encountered as a reporter back in those days. And it went on through all the fifties [1950's]. And they'd just insult you, man, just-officers, white officers, the judges and all just insult you, man, just-So-
97426 OA: One other thing we were thinking about, we'd probably find this into-what do you think were the most significant elections and the kind of political figures that were involved that sort of could show a pattern of blacks comin' into any kind of political maturity in this community? And it just seems that it-let's say, the Poe election. We had come to maybe some sign of political maturity at that point-and we wanted to -
98CA: Well, we had-
9959 OA: And we wanted to try to trace that in terms of history.
100602 CA: We had some political maturity that backfired on us. I'll tell you what happened. In 1956-well, it was the old idea that a lot of people still try to pull on-you have the Latins over here and then the blacks. So Nick Nuccio, who was a county commissioner at the time, came to us and said, "Okay, don't you worry about a thing if I get into office. Now, we're all minorities. Crackers," he said it just like that, "[are] trying to take over the town. But if we get together we can run this town. If I get elected I'll take care of y'all." Typical, you know, same thing that's gone on over the years.
101OA: That's right.
102546 CA: Nick Nuccio got in there and did nothin'. All right, 1960 election Julian Lane came on the scene, picked by the power structure to help try to get the Latins out of office, the top office in town. And I never will forget it as long as I live. It was in fifty-nine [1959]. All the blacks were all with Nuccio. And Geddy B. Wilde and his 77th Club were the only people on Julian Lane's side. You know they were runnin' a gamblin' house over there on Howard Avenue. And I think Julian Lane got maybe two hundred black votes out of that election.
103OA: That was in 1960?
104CA: But he won.
105OA: But he won?
106170 CA: Yeah. The white folks, all the Anglo-Saxons ganged up and beat the Latins and the black. So now we've got Julian Lane in office. Julian Lane comes out, gives us this-
10736 OA: That would be fifty-nine [1959].
108354 CA: Yeah. Gives us some street paving. Give us lights. He gave us the other nine holes-of the city dump-out there at Rowlett Park. They had a big dedication ceremony out there to dedicate the new city dump for the other nine holes for a black golf course. So the man sold himself to blacks. Now, we all get together down at Perry's place, all the blacks.
109395 So Nick's runnin' for re-election now, it's sixty-three [1963], runnin' for re-election. We're gonna show Nick Nuccio that we've got us a good man now, you know. We raised close to $4,000 for Julian Lane. I ran a big story about it, which was a mistake, because the white folks said, "Oh, he's a 'nigger-lover' now-" see. They read the paper, he's a "nigger-lover" now. And Nuccio won that race.
110844 So now blacks on the outside again because Lane was defeated. And here we had put all this money in the campaign. We made some bad mistakes by publicizing that. We made Hammond and myself and two or three others, Perry Harvey, you know, the usual crew, we just-we did the right thing in raising and not accepting money from these politicians. But it backfired on us because the white community didn't like it. So there we got defeated again. So now we were faced with Nuccio, who did nothin' until Greco came on. Political obligations, we just felt that the power structure just never liked Nuccio and they fought him every little thing he did. Every time he put in a sidewalk they-"Hey, this man, all he knows how to do-this town is growin' and all he knows how to do is put in sidewalks and build benches with his, you know, with city money."
111So the paper didn't go with him. We went back with Nuccio. But the power structure went with an Italian this time, Greco. And that's how Greco won. So we had Greco and bring it right on up to current times.
11257 OA: So out of that experience a lot was learned, you say.
113CA: Oh, yeah.
114162 OA: And what do you think about the most recent election, the national election, in terms of Carter, in terms of the black community coming to political maturity?
115CA: I don't think we (inaudible) a thing. We demonstrated that.
116OA: Did you think it also trickled down to the local level?
117662 CA: In time, hopefully. See, it's not a good thing. A lot of people think-I don't know it all, but I've been out here twenty-eight years, been a man twenty-eight years-it's not a good thing. I'm not mad with Otis Anthony or this lady if she's with Joe Blow out there and I'm with somebody else. You know, blacks have a tendency, and I've seen it over the years, don't speak to people and, you know, "cause he's on somebody's side I don't want to speak to him-he ain't got no sense," and all that kind of-we need that in politics. We need it. If you're with Joe Kotvas and I'm with Billy Poe and you were with somebody else runnin' in the race, so what? You know?
118OA: That's right.
119375 CA: Why should I get mad with him or you or anybody else because somebody else has different idea from mine? See? Do you see what I'm sayin'? And blacks have a tendency, not only here, but I understand nationwide, some of these national leaders I've talked with, will get angry as hell with somebody-I mean get angry with friends because they're with somebody else, you know.
120625 And, locally, it's a good thing, you know. We've got a situation now, I'm not gonna call any names, but one person in a family is for one person and the other person in the family's with the other person. So they called me and (inaudible). I said, "Man, so what?" Why argue, you know, and fight among yourselves, you know? If both of 'em got a good chances to win at least one of you all be on somebody's side one will be a loser and one will be a winner. As long as you don't sell your people down the river for some racist. You know, now, I'm not talkin' about-yeah, I'm gonna be mad with you if you're with George Wallace.
121OA: Yeah.
122CA: You know, but I mean with a good viable candidate, so what.
123134 OA: But what about, then, the old concept of the coalition between Latins, blacks and whoever? Is it workable? Can it work in reality?
12422 CA: No, it can't work.
125OA: Can't work.
126890 CA: I don't think so. It can't work. These people, I've found, don't keep their words. A man, if a man's word is nothin', he's nothin'. I don't care who he is nor what his status in life is. If his word-if I'm committed-and these candidates comin' in here everyday now-Bruce Smathers, the biggest racist in the state of Florida sat right there where that lady's sittin' yesterday, and oh, he said-I just listened to him. And I told him that I've got an editorial board and I'm not makin' decisions myself. I'll have the final say, but I want somebody else in on it. That's the way I got rid of him. And I'm tellin' 'em all that. I'm gonna have Rudolph Harris in here. I'm gonna have the lady that's the managin' editor here. I may have (inaudible) in. They've got ideas, and if they've got questions, just like the Tribune and the rest of 'em do, you know, rather than being a one man show.
127OA: Yeah, I see.
128571 CA: He sat an hour with all that bull, man, just going in one ear and right out the other. He had his whole entourage here. But I ain't interested in that racist, about his dad and all that. And his dad is the one that beat [Claude] Pepper you know. And that racist-those racist tactics in the fifties [1950's]. And he's just like his daddy. He's just thirty-four years old, a real tall handsome cat and he thinks the women gonna-just women go for them good-lookin' candidates. He's gonna get a lot of women's votes. And he may win, but I ain't gonna be with him. Not me.
129221 Bruce Smathers was a state senator and FL Secretary of State in the 1970s. He was the son of Senator George Smathers. Andrews is referring to the 1951 election for senator, in which George Smathers defeated Claude Pepper.
130Tape 1, side 1 ends; tape 1, side 2 begins
131745 CA: -Williams gonna be tough because he's got the governor's staff behind him. Not the staff, but he's got the governor's machine behind him. And, of course, the man that's the big man in that race, Nelson d'Italiano, who wants to stay in power, typical Italian, he runs the Sports Authority with iron hand. He tries to run patronage in this county with an iron hand and always whisperin' to you about what he's done for black people and you ought to be here and there. And, you know, and I haven't shown up to any of those things that he's invited me to because I ain't interested in no Williams. There's a man worth $5 or $6 million dollars, no kind of personality, you know, and hates black people, you know. He fought the human rights thing.
132OA: Yeah.
133187 CA: You know, and so what the hell I look like goin' to some function for him? Showin' up, you know-it's best to-what I'm tryin' to say is take a stand and stick with it even if you lose.
134OA: I see.
135583 CA: And a lot of people haven't learned that, you know, they get mad with you and politicians get mad with you, but I just can't help it, you know. Because I'm not gonna sacrifice my principles for a racist out there, or these Italians, most of 'em, whose word ain't worth a quarter, named Bob Bondi. Look what he did down there at the Commission, talkin' about runnin' for mayor. A lot of black people gonna be on his side. He put that woman out of business out there. He fought that affirmative action thing down there. He's done a lot of things. And he's on the Sports Authority.
136County Commissioner (1974-1979), lost mayoral race in 1979.
137562 And he and I had it down there. Why, you've probably read it in the Tribune. Speakin' for me, you don't speak for me, you know, on a issue. But I ain't lookin' for no recognition, you know. See, he ought to be gettin' recognition as head of the so and so. And then he went to the Italians, Agliano, and got that fish market down there-you know, they ain't recognizing-he's trying to speak for all the minorities on the Sports Authority and I just told him off right there in front of the press, everybody. I just ain't got no confidence in 'em-99 percent of 'em.
138131 OA: Okay. Another thing, what about the issue of single-member districts? What kind of future do you think it has in the community?
139CA: We're gonna have to sue over it. Somebody's gonna have to sue to get single-member. That's the only way we're gonna ever get anybody elected. I'm not talkin' about these super blacks now. Rev. Lowry is overly qualified, you know. But for the average Joe Blow out there, for me, you, or this man or this man or this lady to get elected, we're gonna have to have single-member districts. Every local election, and on a national basis too, you know, we're gonna have to sue to get it. Because the white folks ain't gonna give it till we take it.
140267 OA: Do you think we can put faith in a justice department type suit, or we need something a little more outside, say ACLU [American Civil Liberties Union] type of suit or something like Julian Bond's Southern (inaudible)? You think either one of 'em gonna go through?
14182 CA: Either one. Now, if you go through federal courts it'll be four or five years.
142231 OA: Yeah, that was my opinion. You know, when it came in, I figure that's gonna take too long, still be goin'. What would have to happen, we'd have to sue as a group or we need some individual black to bring the suit in their name?
143CA: A class-action suit or an individual. An individual or a class-action suit.
144OA: But we'd have to raise the money to put that suit, that's the thing, right?
145CA: Any of these black lawyers who weren't so money hungry-
146OA: They could take it on-
147CA: -take it right on through and we pay their expenses. And we wouldn't need a whole lot of money.
148OA: And it has been done in other places.
14966 CA: It has been done in other places. They did it in Jacksonville.
150OA: I heard something about the State Constitution revision committees debating the issue and the governor supposedly come out in support, is that true? Single-member districts?
15196 CA: Well, you're talking about a lame-duck governor [Reubin Askew]. Yeah, he would come out and-
152OA: Say anything.
153545 CA: -say anything, now. Yeah, I'm for it. But he's goin' out of office. Of course, the man has been fair, reasonably fair, you know, on black appointments, political (inaudible) and something like that. Some people-Blacks shouldn't forget Jan Platt, now. Had all those-they had it, single-members districts. She got it changed and with the help of the Tribune, you know, all that publicity and everything they got those people back down, the committee back down and changed a lot of the clauses in there that's overruled single-member districts.
154OA: That was-who was that?
155CA: She's a member of that committee, you know.
156OA: She was? No I didn't.
15751 CA: Sure. Jan Platt, that's the one that fought it.
15824 OA: That fought it, huh.
159190 CA: And she got the Tribune behind her because they don't want any blacks elected. You know, they're gonna use Rev. Lowry as the "last-this is what can happen with the right candidate." See?
160OA: Yeah.
161191 CA: It's "tokenism." And just like they put me on the Sports Authority. They put Alton [White] up in the mayor's office. They elect Rev. Lowry. It's "tokenism." You know, it's just sickening.
162OA: And then, people like, for example, Representative Joy Sheldon, they came out for it, right?
16311 CA: Um hmm.
164HJ: Those guys, you've got to push.
165138 OA: Okay. Have you had a chance to attend any of the recent meetings of the National Newspaper Publishers Association, that type of thing?
166CA: No, I haven't been to one, honestly, since sixty-four [1964] when Johnson came into office. We had a meeting up there and met him and all that. I haven't attended one. I haven't been able to leave here.
167OA: Have you got any indication whether they are taking any new directions in terms of the black media or what their thrust is going to be politically?
168433 CA: They send out, in fact I got one a couple days ago, they send out newsletters, you know, what's goin' an and-we have a dynamic leader now. His name is Dr. Carlton Goodlett, who is a Ph.D. and a M.D., a psychiatrist out in San Francisco. He's worth $2 or $3 million dollars, very wealthy. So-but he's the one that-you see all the national advertising we're gettin' now, these cars and all that, he's directly responsible for that.
169OA: Oh, I see.
17034 CA: Gettin' that for black papers.
171OA: Yeah.
172283 CA: Because he went to the boards of these companies, personally, and sold 'em, you know, as a national ad. There's a national ad. He's directly responsible for that. And he doesn't bite his tongue. He just-he's probably the most brilliant man I've ever met in my lifetime, you know-
173OA: Uh huh.
174325 CA: -black or white. And he carries these figures in his head. He's just a genius, man. Doin' business and knowin' what to say and what not to say and when to say it. He's just a master at it, you know. He's got about seven or eight papers out there in California. He's buyin' up everything out there, you know, black papers.
175OA: Um hmm.
176504 CA: It's just a sideline with him. You know, he's got plenty of money and he doesn't have to do what he's doin' because he's so wealthy himself, but he's doin' this for black papers in the country. And they-you know, you're gonna have to just-nobody's thinkin' about runnin' against him anyway, you know. But we just hope that he'll stay there and not resign or something like that, you know, get tired, see, because he means so much to all of us. When he speaks, that's it, man. You can hear a pin drop.
17739 OA: Do you all have any more questions?
17892 HJ: What is your viewpoint on the black community, say, in the sixties [1960s]? The actions?
179164 CA: Well, that was a period of change. They had the sit-ins. They had the police brutality cases. They had changed from a totally segregated society to a society of
180partial segregation is what I call it. And we're still in that stage.
181OA: Yeah.
182882 CA: With the cost of livin' like it is now, it's hard for even a middle-class black to enjoy the fruits of what's transpired in the fifties [1950s] and the sixties [1960s]. If you go and get a hotel room or go to dinner somewhere, it's gonna cost you $18 to $20-a good dinner, you know, other than Morrison's, and blacks just can't enjoy those. The majority, I'd say 90 percent of them, can't enjoy what integration has brought us. So we're in a, as I said earlier, a vise, you know, a vise, man. We just in the grips of economic disaster. The kind of programs that you promote, if we didn't have those I don't know what we'd do. You know, you and Campbell over there have to fight to get the few jobs that are available. If get funding for 'em, we'd be in a-man, we'd be-we'd be on the verge of another revolution. There's no question about it. Because it's bad. It's bad out here.
183HJ: It's serious
184778 CA: The white man is sayin' that "I've got you where I want you." You're poorer than you were in the fifties [1950s] and the sixties [1960s] because of inflation. A man makin' $7,000, a man makin' $15,000 which is like-I'm tellin' you. Like, in the fifties [1950s], I started off with a master's degree at $35 a week, man, and that's what my daddy started me off with in 1951. I moved here, was sent through college here, I made it, you know. I didn't have no car or anything, you know, but I made it with a new wife and everything. But, hell, man, you know-you can imagine that's maybe like $100 a day, you know, $100 a week. That's the way I equate it, you know, I say things up at least three times or two times what it was then. So I just figure that $35 is like $100 today.
185OA: Yeah.
186123 CA: And I was scufflin' then, so I can imagine what a person makin' $100 or $125 today is, you know. He just can't make it.
187165 OA: That's right. When you consider the poor carryin' these high utility bills and unemployed and being laid-off, it seems ridiculous that people could even survive.
188CA: That's right.
189219 HJ: (inaudible) Do you have a real biography, you know, where any program you've been on someone did a biography for you, introduced you, or maybe a written biography of your father, or somethin'? How could we get that?
190180 CA: I've got one around here somewhere of my daddy. I can give you that. I've done one on myself some-and a few of 'em. I've got 'em around here somewhere. I can get it up for you.
19120 HJ: Okay. All right.
19243 CA: But, anyway I can help you (inaudible).
19354 OA: You also affiliated with the Lily White Lodge and-
194CA: President, yeah.
19527 OA: (inaudible) Yeah. Okay.
19660 CA: I was the project manager. I'm very familiar over there.
197OA: Okay. You said you had three businesses. What are they?
198CA: The Lodge, Tampa Park and this.
199OA: Tampa Park, housing?
200CA: Apartments, yeah.
201166 OA: Oh, yeah. Would the Lodge have any historical record that you think would be important to us. Like, records of minutes or anything that would help us in terms of-
202520 CA: I don't know a-They did a story in the Tribune about us a couple of years ago. See the lodge, all lodges now, are not-black lodges are not what they used to be because back in the thirties [1930s] and forties [1940s] you couldn't buy insurance. You know, blacks couldn't buy insurance from Metropolitan, Prudential or any of these insurance companies and the Lodge was a stop-gap for black insurance. In other words, all the Lodge is, even today, is a small insurance company. You pay so much and get so much a debt.
203950 We used to have hospital benefits. We used to have a small hospital. We used to have an old folks home for the old members. We had an ambulance at one time-go all over the state pickin' up patients and bringin' 'em back to our hospital. We're talkin' about in the fifties [1950s] now. But, we haven't been able to keep up with the trend now because-Otis Anthony and this man here and this young fellow wouldn't be interested in a $350 death benefit when he died. So we aren't gettin' the younger people. We've got 10,000 members, but all-I'm the youngest thing in there and I'm nearly fifty. I'm forty-eight, you know. And I would say you don't have-well, other than our juniors, and we've got maybe 2,000 juniors-but the adults in there, I would say, is not people in there younger than I am, see? Because the younger people aren't interested. They just aren't interested in a $350 death benefit. See? But you don't pay but $20 a year for that. See?
204OA: Yeah.
205466 CA: And when we had a hospital you paid an extra dollar-or quarter-which was $4 a year and you got a hospital bed for $7-$10, you know, and free medical care. And it damn near broke us. You know- before we realized what was happenin', you know, we had to close up the hospital. Of course, when integration came that was another forty jobs gone because we had forty people workin' over there. The hospital no longer served its purpose. It couldn't serve the purpose.
20649 OA: (inaudible) hospital-which hospital was that?
20728 CA: The Lily White Hospital.
208107 OA: The Lily White Hospital. I've heard of that. Clara Frye [Hospital] was what, state-owned, or something?
209CA: That was operated by the city.
210OA: By the city.
211308 CA: The same thing happened to it. When integration came, nobody was goin' to Lily White Hospital or Clara Frye when they could go to Tampa General or Centro Asturiano, or any of these other big hospitals around, where you got better care, better nursing, you know, better everything. It's a better facility.
212110 OA: So, integration has had a both a positive and a negative kind of affect an us in terms of our (inaudible).
213552 CA: Of course, if you look at it, if you get past Wilson's Funeral Home, Central Life and Community Federal and this business here, that's it in Tampa that's doin', say, half a million dollars or more a year in gross revenue. Jus' ain't no more. Back in the old days, in the forties [1940s], fifties [1950s], we had maybe another five or six. The hospital was doin' that kind of money. You had two or three businesses on Central. Hell, we don't have but one bar owned by a black now. One! That's Grace over there. All the rest are owned by white folks.
214OA: It's hard to get a liquor license-
215CA: In the fifties [1950s], when I came back here, we had Buddy's Bar down on Central. We had Charlie Moon's old place-his wife owned it. Johnny Gray had a bar. Brown down there had a (inaudible), a bar. Lee Davis had a bar. And Watts Sanderson had a bar, all right there on Central.
216632 Then when they started that mess about cleanin' up Central and everything we had to move out here-I'm talkin' about sixty-two [1962] now. And Buddy moved on Seventh [Avenue] He died right after that, see, and Shields took it over. And then since then they've just been-Shields, when he got sick, just sold it, man, tryin' to get some money, you know, to get money out of it. I think he got $40,000 for his license. And that's gone, see? Then, when Grace came to town, she bought the Ace from a white guy over there. That's the only bar we've got owned by a black in Tampa, in the whole city, where you've got 90,000 black people.
217304 OA: Are there any possibilities with what is happening in Tampa, with the Development Authority doin' all the about developing the city and opening up the airport to Europe, can we-if we were thinking, can we see any benefit to us, if they were really planning and thinking in the process of any of that?
218CA: What benefit?
219OA: For black people, if we were thinking.
220127 CA: So your-white folks have forgot about us. They just act and say, "Well, they're just out there and don't think-" Just like-
22172 OA: That's what I get the feelin'. Everything is just planned around us.
222HJ: Planned around us, you know.
223179 OA: And I'm tryin' to figure out-you think there's such a possibility? You've been here a long time. I'm tryin' to figure out, you know, being so close to downtown, I just wonder,
224518 CA: Well, they need-see, they realize that they've got to have-see, that's been the problem downtown. They don't have any housing. You take Jacksonville, you take New Orleans, they's people have got big housing developments just like-right in a downtown area. Because people are livin' in suburbia now. There's no need for them to come downtown. That's why downtown dies. So they're gonna leave Central Park there. They're gonna leave Tampa Park there. Because you've got nine hundred families between the two of them.
22568 HJ: Then they're gonna build some higher income apartments close to-
226CA: Higher income apartments closer to that development and then downtown will be revitalized. That's why they're fightin' so for that hotel. But they, just like you say, Otis, they are plannin' everything around us.
227OA: Are any black folks on the Development Authority?
228302 CA: Mm hmm-they have took Chuck Smith off the Sports Authority. He resigned and now he's chairman of that downtown development. A big old cracker, about six foot, eight inches, Chuck Smith-Charles Smith. But he's a contractor. And he's gonna get some of that action down there when they go to buildin'.
229OA: And that seems to be a pattern around the state, really, because they're really tryin' to attract that business from the north and that weather-even as far as Europe.
230682 CA: We're in bad shape, to say the least. We're in bad shape. I went up to a United Negro College Fund meeting the other day. I saw Otha Favors. He wasn't goin' there, but I just saw him. I looked around me. Man, you had Max Hollingworth of Winn-Dixie, multi-millionaire, he's the chairman, Charlie Lykes, Charlie Lykes of Lykes Brothers, that's one of the richest families in the whole United States, Eugene Dodson of WTVT, he's the general manager, Junior Lane, he's a millionaire, dairy. They made their money- when they sold all that land out there, they built that subdivision, goin'- on the way, where you used to go to Walker's Lake, on the left there, that dairy over there?
231OA: Um hmm.
2321007 CA: He sold all that, $3 or $4 million, to a developer to put house. And so he's a millionaire. All them millionaires (inaudible). Fredrick Hearns, and Clifford sittin' up in there. And that 'nigger' that's the head-excuse me, you know, that's-we're all black-but that's what I said, the guy that's head of the whole fund in the state, he actin' like a jackass up there, you know, beggin' for money. "Oh, Mr. So and So-" Just-Uncle Tom and they-it was sickening, you know? It was sickening. Are right, you tell Holloway, you know, he's Gasparilla king a couple years ago, about sixty-five years old. "You tell Lee Roy Selmon we want him on this committee." Well, Art Wiggins-you know, Art Wiggins. senior vice-president of the First National Bank, we're in that big board room. Man-well, one black did get a job up there-built that big conference table, that conference table longer than this room, rugs that thick, on the 34th floor. You can just see the whole city of Tampa. Oh, look at these white folks.
233710 I say to myself, you know, "You tell Lee Roy Selmon [football player] we want him on this committee." And Art Wiggins got some kind of financial tie to him. "There'll be no problem. We want him to work the football teams and the coaches and everything. And there'll be no problem. He'll be on this committee." And I looked around and I said they got us. And they know it. "Blythe, anything I can do for you just let me know." This Charlie Lykes, oh it's cracker, man. But we had to go to them to get money for Bethune-Cookman and the black colleges that are in the Florida Memorial, because, see, they are the ones gonna give the big money. I'm gonna give $500, that's all I can stand. You see what I'm sayin'?
234OA: Yeah.
235484 CA: This business will give $500. But the Lykes Brothers gonna give $5 or $10-and Winn-Dixie, when we got ready for the luncheon, "Don't worry about it, we'll pick up the tab, the 'beef people' will pick up the tab." That's how it works. So you're talkin' maybe a thousand or more dollars right there. And plus they're gonna give $5,000 or $10,000. But that goal that they've got-so, what the hell you gonna do? You got to go to the white folks to get money-because we ain't got none.
236HJ: Pitiful, man. We're in bad shape, economically.
23781 OA: What direction do you think we should take to assure more economic stability?
2381049 CA: Man, we could talk about that all night. Well, the first thing we've got to do is what Otis mentioned about getting some political power. We don't have any elected-not one elected official, one. So, we've got to file suit. You'd be surprised that the money that's-that a politician can throw your way, contracts. Poe's insurance company is twice as big as it was when he went in office. You know that, don't you? Why? Because he's the mayor of the city of Tampa and everybody wants to get in with the mayor. So he ain't got to be there. They talk about he's losin' money. Everybody knows better than that. Man, he made a hundred and some thousand dollars a year before he went into office. I think it was about $101,000 a year, see? But his insurance company is twice the size as it was when he went in office. Because everybody is gonna run down there and get some kind of insurance from the mayor's company. See, that's why he took that job. And it just goes right down the line-of what they can do for you, throw contracts your way, you know.
239HJ: That's right.
240326 CA: Throw business your way. So if we have some politicians down there doin' the same thing that would be a start. Otherwise, we ain't got no bank, no commercial banks, and we ain't got no way to get no money, so we've got to make a start. And I think that would be the best start in politics. File a damn suit. Go on and get-
241OA: For single-member districts.
242420 CA: Wait it out and get single-member districts where we can get two or three councilmen down there. We'd be on the mainstream, a couple of county commissioners. They're talking about makin' it part-time now, $25,000 a year. Part -time. And you can count the blacks on your hand in this town that make $25,000 full-time doin' anything. They talk about makin' it part-time. So we can get a couple of county commissioners.
243820 They'd throw 'em business all kinds of ways. You saw that mowin' scandal. Big money, man, you're talkin' about big money. I'm talkin' about doin' it legally, now. I ain't talkin' about no "hanky-panky." But we could throw blacks-give blacks some jobs. The white folks don't count none about that money. I don't care what anybody says. I learned it the hard way because I was a militant in the fifties [1950s] and the sixties [1960s] till I realized-I got in my forties and I realized, "Damn, boy, you ain't got a quarter yourself. How can you go down there makin' demands and doin' this and doin' that. You know, and you ain't got nothin' yourself," see? So the past ten years I've been tryin' to accumulate somthin' myself and get a little money and, then, you know, gain a degree of some independence and other things.
244380 That's why a lot of people-you take Moses White. A lot of people don't like him. But, see, he can do the things he does and talk big and talk trash because he's got some money. My daddy could do the same thing because they knew he had some money, and worth, because of his paper. They don't give a damn about me now. And I ain't foolin' myself they do. But they respect the paper.
245HJ: When I was at the South Florida (inaudible)
246Unknown Person: Yeah?
24786 HJ: And that was when I was protesting and readin' all those newspapers. That's right.
248210 CA: See, that day is gone. You've got to come in the back door, now. That protest thing-you saw what happened out here, the Penny Saver thing. They put a big suit to them, what, a $3 mil-$2 million dollar suit.
249OA: They did the same thing as this-
250CA: See, they've got you blocked.
251136 OA: Could you give us some idea in terms of how the paper has expanded now, in terms of circulation, places, your machinery, equipment-?
252106 CA: We got new equipment, Otis. We had to get new equipment in 1974. We got $200,000 worth. I'll show you.
253OA: Okay.
254519 CA: Before you leave. We got $200,000 worth of new equipment because we had to. The old press was printin' bad and people complainin' you couldn't read the print and that kind of thing, so we had to go modern. And we did it just in the nick of time. It was costin' us a lot. And since an ad like those ads I show- all you do is paste 'em up and take a picture of it. Just put some chemicals over it and you've got your plate. Before you had to put it in hot metal and then somethin' would go wrong. Just an old process.
255553 We were one of the few black papers in the country that has a press of its own. Most of 'em, even the Chicago Daily Defender, the biggest black paper in the country-it's a daily paper-sends the paper out to be printed. They don't have their own press. So it's a big investment, and most black papers can't make that investment because it costs too much. A press costs $100,000, and that's a small press. A four unit press costs you $100,000. I understand now the price is about $138,000. It's changed that much in four years. It went up to $38,000 more.
256881 Equipment-wise, that answers your question equipment wise. Circulation-wise, all black papers are strugglin' because black people are movin' out to the suburbs, movin' in all types of areas. Where, in the glory years of the fifties [1950s] and the sixties [1960s], all of us were congregated in specific areas. And as a result you had no problem gettin' to 'em. No problem to circulation and billing. But now you just have to use-the white papers been catchin' the sure hell. That's why you have the Tampa Neighbor and these other little papers springin' up givin' the dailies here. Because white people are doin' the same thing, you know, more than they did back in the fifties [1950s] and the sixties [1960s]. They're movin' out, away from us. You know, gettin' out in places-suburbia, see? And circulations problems are problems of all newspapers, particularly black newspapers.
257OA: I guess it's a problem of cost or logistics and all that kind of-
258301 CA: All that combined. And we've run all kinds of little gimmicks and we've run contests and that kind of thing, but-that's a subscription contest where a guy brings in twelve (inaudible) paper twice a week for a year. And we do quite well with that to keep our circulation stable, at least, you know.
25973 HJ: So how do you handle the area near USF [University of South Florida]?
260CA: We have a couple of stands out there, but that's about it.
26175 HJ: Because the apartment complexes out there are filled with black people.
26261 CA: Yeah. This is what I was sayin', you know, it was just a-
263Tape 1, side B ends; tape 2, side A begins
264CA: -circulation for a newspaper. Here we have people-we have five people who run the routes, but they work on a regular basis. Just on Tuesdays and Fridays they run the paper routes. Then, of course, you have the news boys and the elderly people who make a subsistence on it, you know, retired people. And this is the bulk of our circulation output, see? That's the way we get it out.
265OA: Do you have a mailing process?
266CA: Yeah, we have an address-o-graph machine for subscriptions. And we've built that quite a bit since we got this new equipment. It used to be the girl would have to type every subscriber's name twice a week. And you can imagine how long-and we just had one girl just doin' nothin' but that. But with that address-o-graph machine it's just automatic. You get your changes, you just take one card out and type up another one and put it in your address-o--graph machine and just go right on. Say your subscription's expired, just take it out. You know, we notify you in a day and if you don't write back in two weeks we just take it out, you know, and go on with the others, see. But we used to type every one of 'em because I used to do it myself. And it's antiquated. That's an antiquated system.
267pause in recording
268141 CA: I think a lot of Mr. Harris and I think a lot of Mr. Kinsey. Mr. Kinsey is more or less what you call in newspaper lingo "a (inaudible)."
269OA: I'd agree with that.
270532 CA: He walks the line and wavering a little over on the militant side and then-a little-the next column will be on the conservative side. Wherein, Rudolph was militant right down the line, you know, raisin' hell about somethin' all the time. Only he's right most of the time. With those two guys and myself, you know, bein' older and well, not too much older than Rudolph-but he's- you know, we were the same age-and with the young lady I have here-she's about thirty-one-comin' in and doing the work has a lot of good ideas. She's-
271OA: Well, I just mentioned it 'cau-
272111 CA: It's gonna be straight from now on like that. Whoever we decide on as a political candidate, that'll be it.
273243 OA: Well, anytime, (inaudible) then I'd love to. That's fantastic. Okay, we didn't get a chance to talk about the staff and, in terms of your staff and what your breakdown is like, in terms of (inaudible) department and all that kind of thing.
274163 CA: I've got seventeen people here, which is too many. But a-see, what we just talked about would tie-in with circulation and the regular work. I could really cut-
2751122 I had a newspaper broker to come in here to appraise this business for my daddy's estate about six months ago and he looked around and said, "I've never seen this many people workin' on a paper this size." And he said, "You've got too many people." I said, "Well, look,-" He went through department-I mean, this guy appraised the Coppley Newspapers which is about forty or fifty papers out in California, so he's one of the best in the country. But I can't-I told him I should cut four people. Get down to thirty percent of the income. That's the way he put it. And I'm up to about thirty-five to thirty-six percent of the income in labor costs. But, see, I said, "You've been dealin' with white papers and black papers, but I've got four people or five people runnin' paper routes that work all durin' the week regularly at a job and then on Tuesdays and Fridays they run the paper routes for me. I can't cut 'em. That's number one, because I would have to hire somebody to run these routes, separate," see? I can't afford a full-time circulation man. I tried that in the early seventies [1970s] and that didn't work out.
276913 But, then I got all my-I'd say out of the seventeen people, fourteen of 'em been here fifteen years or more. See? I don't have much turnover here. This lady out front, this dark-skinned lady, been here twenty years. The other lady been here nineteen years, the other lady up front. You can't cut people like-you know, unless you facin' collapse. You know, unless you've just got to, you know just cut to stay alive. I've pondered this thing for many hours, but those two ladies-now this lady handles-like on Wednesdays I cut back to four week, everybody but six people. You've got to pay minimum wage and you've got pay reporters. When you pay a reporter, a girl like I've got now, that I've trained, been here ten years, and she's been through the whole operation from clerk to copyographic setter to everything you can think of, you've got to pay her $180-$190 a week because if you lose her you're hurtin'.
277OA: That's right.
278182 CA: See? Where on a white paper, you know, they see guys comin' in there applyin' for jobs everyday, you know, graduate journalists, see-most of whom aren't worth a damn, incidently.
279OA: That's true.
280276 CA: So, when you get a girl like this, can type about 100 words a minute, turn out a story as quickly as anybody you want to see and knows-she's in there settin' type now because I'm on a four day week on Wednesday. See, all but five people are off today. See what I'm saying?
281OA: Yeah.
282CA: She's in there settin' now, tomorrow she becomes a reporter. Do you see what I'm saying?
283OA: Oh, I see. Yeah.
284CA: So you can't cut somebody-
285OA: Where is she from? A black paper, it's a different animal.
286255 CA: She's from Macon, Georgia. She's been here ten years. And she went two years at Talladega and met this Tampa boy and they got married and she never went back to school. But she's a hell of a girl. She took Martha's place in-you know, when Martha died.
287OA: Do you have something you can give us where all of the staff-can you breakdown on some of them?
288743 CA: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. This girl here, she gets part paid for-the dark-skinned girl gets part paid from the Lodge because she knows as much about the Lodge as I do. Do you see what I'm saying? Because she was with the old man [his father]. The old man hired her years ago. So I got to keep her, see? Because all these programs I got to get out in the next month, you know, she knows what to do and how to do it, you know, better than I do. Do you see what I'm saying? About gettin' the choirs, the preachers, the prizes up, the money that we give to the guys who've worked hard during the year and all that, the plaques and all that, see? So, she gets a salary from here and a salary from out there, part-time salary from out there.
289This other lady sets type and handles the front office. Miss Crutchfield is strictly society. She goes home half a day. I've got to pay her full-time because she's old now, about sixty, and been here since fifty-seven [1957]. That's twenty-one years. And you just have to make her-every Tuesday at twelve o'clock she'll go on right out the door. Every Friday at twelve o'clock she goes right out the door. Her work is complete.
290537 HJ: Mr. Andrews, do you think that this is-well, I guess it couldn't be a fault or in black businesses-but-I've noticed if this had happened to a white man and someone had come in and appraised him and he had said, "Well, you know, you need to get rid of so and so and so or else, you know," or "This would give you an increase in productivity," and-not productivity, as far as income is concerned, right?-they would have probably let them go regardless of how many years they've been there. But I've noticed that black people have this-
291CA: Affinity for their own.
29289 OA: Right. Right. And do you think this is good for business or bad or-how do you see it?
293HJ: You said he's still pondering that.
294616 CA: Well, yeah, I've been pondering that. I would say-let me give you an answer like this. If this was my only business, I'd probably cut six people because all it means is-when you take withholding taxes out-I was takin' with all this full-time staff, before I cut back to four, I was takin' $2,000-the, government requires you to send their money, withholding taxes, when it gets up to business this size, $2,000. When it gets up to $2,000. That was happenin' to me every three weeks. I had to send the government $2,000 withholding taxes, which was killing me. Since I cut back to four days it's every five weeks.
295658 So I can live with that. Make my little salary, you see, and keep my people that have been here and count on this business for a livin'. I don't count on it because I've got my own personal property that brings me in $15,000 a year. I've got a big salary out at the Lodge, you know. So I'm way up in the upper 10 percent of income people in the whole country-white and black-because of side businesses. You see what I'm saying? It's about to kill me because I don't take any vacations. I just go the year around. You have to, you know. But I enjoy it. And, as long as I can keep my-people who've been with me a long time without goin' under, I'm gonna do it.
296OA: I see.
297840 CA: You see what I'm saying? The paper is not makin'-the corporation, let me say that. I'm gettin' a salary and we're breakin' even. The corporation is not making any money. But, you know, drop below that line where we start losin' money, yeah, I'll do it then, see? But my certified public accountant says that-he gives me hell, too. Just like-he asks the same question, see. He says the corporation is not making what it should be making, you know. But I say, "Well, as long as I can pay the government and pay my people that have been here all these years and keep 'em goin'-" And I talk to all of 'em just like-I'm tellin' them the sure thing, that one day it may come, but I'm gonna try to make it, you know, without lettin' my fifteen to twenty year people-because you can't find people that can do this work, man, you'd be surprised.
298OA: That's right. I believe it.
29970 CA: I tried to-you know, we've got a white-we've got a white pressman.
300OA: I believe that?
301672 CA: Now you would think that a guy that's been back there twenty some years helpin' that white man run a press-and then when we put the new press in a factory man came in and stayed here a month-that he would learn how to run that press. The guy that's been back there, my top man back there, "I got it. I know how to run it. You can let 'em go. Let 'em go." I'm payin' those guys a year-two hours a day-I pay 'em $40. Two of 'em, a man and his eighty year old father-in-law. So I'm out $80 for two hours work twice a week. That's a $160. I say, man, I don't mind. I'd give you $100 of that money, you know, a week, extra, if you'd just run the press, learn how to run it.
302746 He went over to Plant City two weeks after the factory man was here. When he got back he said, "Turn 'em loose." I said,-I told 'em, man, I was so glad to get rid of those "crackers". Because they've been here before I got here, twenty some years. Just do- yeah-Waste up a lot of paper. They don't give a damn, you know. Man, we were four o'clock tryin' to get out of here. We was supposed to be out at twelve. The man didn't know. And I had to eat "crow" and call 'em back. And he told me, you know, the "crackers", when he came back, "You can't teach no old man like that how to run no press. You have to get you a young boy." And all that kind of-his talkin' bigger then, you know. But I had to eat "crow" to get 'em back to get the paper out.
303So it shows ya. The point is that nobody's interested in the jobs that really pay money like runnin' the press, plumbin'-a plumber makes $18 an hour, electrician $20 an hour and different things, you know. We all went to college to get a degree to teach and, you know, be a lawyer and a doctor and most of us can't be lawyers or doctors so we in som-
304OA: Teaching.
305688 CA: -teaching and little penny-ante jobs when the trend now is to get you a trade and be proficient at it and make yourself some money. So it's the same with this pr-that girl. Now, any girl that can type real well can learn how to run that copyographic machine. But you get these young people in here that want to "bull-skate", clamor and carry-on so I stay with my older people, you know, and runnin' those machines. And pastin' up is nothin', but it's hard to get people to do that. You know, pastin'-that's all that this paper is. And I'll show you when we go around here. Just pastin' a dag-gone headline. You know, makin' sure it's level, like that. Puttin' this in is nothin'. See?
306421 And it's a good payin' job. But blacks aren't in it. They just aren't in it. And so if you talk about lettin' somebody go it's got to be a disaster facin' you in this business, you know. Because of the trade qualities that are involved. You know, like runnin' the press, runnin' the copyographic machine, somebody that knows how to write a decent story. And most of us comin' out of college now can't write a decent line.
307OA: Right.
308133 CA: See. And you get a girl like I got there, you know, I've got to pay her to keep her because she's goin' somewhere else, you know.
30944 OA: Yeah, that's true. They'll be after her.
31056 CA: They'll be after her. I know, they're after her now.
311OA: They'll be after her.
312606 CA: Because she's a good writer. She comes to work everyday, you know, on time, and you just don't find people like that now. I haven't. I've been gettin' people from Campbell on almost a weekly basis and a-now, Miss Crutchfield is a person that's been here twenty-some years, has got all the contacts in all the clubs, the social clubs, the fraternities, everything. And when she's on vacation, man, we're scufflin' like mad just to get all that stuff together, you know, and this one doin' somethin' or I'm doin' it, you know. Because they call Miss Crutchfield, see, somebody been here twenty-one years.
313OA: Yeah.
314132 HJ: We probably need to talk to her about organizations and stuff, interview her. Because we need to get a history of organizations.
315112 OA: There's some other lady that he mentioned, too. Oh, did you have-you Grace (inaudible) finished? (inaudible)
316HJ: Oh, yeah.
31758 SS: Your paper only circulate through Hillsborough County?
318CA: No. Tuesday's paper goes statewide.
319OA: Yeah.
320SS: Oh, does it?
321305 CA: You see that's a funny thing, I'm gonna tell you a little secret. When I first got back with all this rote learning and knew everything, I said, "Why do you-" I told my dad, "Why do you run all these damn churches? It's not that I don't believe in God, but I just don't believe in all these churches."
322OA: That's right.
323CA: "Why you runnin' criminal news? Why you run this? Why you run that?" The man just laughed at me. I said, "I'm gonna take all that stuff out and make 'em pay for it." "Get out my office, son." "What you mean get out the office?" "I don't even want to hear that nonsense." But it was a learnin' process.
324721 That's what I'm tryin' to say. You take your churches out, you take your-the little bit of-I've cut down on it a lot. You take your criminal news out. I try to run a strong social column with Miss Crutchfield and the stories I get from you and other people and just make it a good cross-section of all kinds of news. Because when you start foolin' with changin' your news style, you know, it's just like the Daily News, the biggest circulated newspaper in the country-the New York Daily News. Their format has been the same for-ever since I can remember., see? They run a cross-section of all that stuff. And no advertising, because the circulation is about three million, see. So they survive on nothin' but circulation.
325344 The National Enquirer, the same way. All that junk. People call it "junk," see? But they start foolin' with that format and man you're in trouble. And on Fridays now, be nothin' but maybe three or four pages of church ads. It's piled up out there now on the desk. You start foolin' with out, you get them church people against you, you're dead.
32623 OA: I can believe that.
327473 CA: And I wanted to charge it. Most newspapers charge for your church to run a little- you know them little ads about Sunday School, nine o'clock, morning service 11:00, evening service-. Shoot, man, I've made some feelers and, man, them people holler and say well, just forget it, Reverend. You know, you can just forget it. Because all that stuff should be paid for. But the format has been like that when I got here and it's got to stay and you got to feed it like that.
328And now, to get back to your question; Tuesday's paper goes all over the state. And the reason is all the Lodge people handle it in all the various communities of the state. See, it goes back to what I told you earlier when they couldn't get their news in the Tampa Bulletin back in the forties [1940s]. So the old man said, "Well, we'll start us a paper. I'll start a paper. We'll get our news in that paper." We were in the building process of building up this big 10,000 membership then, see? And so they started sellin' the paper because of that back before I even got here. And then we still had that circulation in almost every little nook and corner of Florida where there's a Lodge.
329OA: That's true because I knew somebody takin' it way down in Daytona.
330HJ: Yeah, (inaudible) it comes to Tallahassee.
331CA: Friday's paper-
332OA: The Florida Sentinel?
333HJ: Yeah.
334CA: Yeah, Tallahassee. Friday's paper is a three county area paper, more or less.
335161 OA: Do you think that you expand your county-do you think that it would eventually go statewide for both of 'em? Or just-you gonna keep it at the three counties?
336443 CA: No. What I'm gonna try to concentrate-what I've been tryin' to concentrate on, say the past seven years, is gettin' saturation in Hillsborough County, you know, the populous areas of central city. That's where your strength lies. It goes back to what you asked about earlier. It's a trick of the trade. See, middle-class people don't read this paper. If we had to depend on middle-class people we would've closed the doors a long time ago.
337OA: That's true.
338697 CA: I'm not sayin' all middle-class people, I'm sayin' the majority of 'em don't. So you have to concentrate on the people in the projects and your-what you call your under-class people. They're the people that support everything, though, your nickel and dime stores, the insurance companies and everything. See, when I-see-because I've got a master's degree and you've got-you all got degrees-you know, I read United States News and World Report, Fortune magazine and Time and Newsweek and all the-and New York Times and the Washington Post which are the best papers in the country-dailies-St. Pete Times and the Tribune and all that, you know. You ain't got time for the little Florida Sentinel.
339843 So we concentrate on gettin' that clientele in the projects and your under-class people. They're the people that support you. The nucleus of your support. When you lose them you're dead because there ain't enough middle class people to support newspaper or anything that counts on numbers, see? You know, you get a lot of criticism, "Oh, man, why do you put something like in there?" Why-we upgrade the society columns. We upgrade the feature stories. We upgrade your deaths and everything but that little column over there on two and three we have to put that in, too. Because if there was any way you could get it out, I would have figured out a way to get it out. You know, but if you do that you're gonna lose that under-class person, see? That's what they want to read about. Because we're talkin' about fifth to eighth grade mentalities.
340HJ: Okay. And with knowing that it's the lower class people that get your subscription that-
341CA: Not subscriptions now.
342OA: Okay. Well, do-
343130 CA: The middle-class people, you know, they're the ones that can afford $12.50 pay in advance, so to speak, for your subscription.
344287 OA: Okay, you know, your master things is with the lower income people, right, your project areas and stuff like that. Okay, have you-has the Sentinel done anything within a certain area of the projects, like a special event, maybe, or a picnic for the children or- just stuff like that?
345291 CA: We gave Christmas bicycles and that kind of thing with those kids over at Central Park, not this past summer-I mean, not this past Christmas but the Christmas before last. Then Ms. Reeve had a lot to say about it. So it looked like I had to do it, that kind of thing. And then we didn't.
346511 So I had 'em over to my house to a pool party. We had about forty boys over there from Central Park, went to a pool party. Served 'em hot dogs and let 'em swim, you know, play records and that kind of-but it got discouragin' as hell so-you know, with all this flack so-but we-I'm not gonna give up. You know, I'm gonna have another one this summer. This summer-and try to-and we've gotten to some of those boys over there because they were headin' in the wrong direction. You know, these kids thirteen-fourteen-
347HJ: That's where you live isn't B-?
348CA: -poppin' drugs and not goin' to school. There's one of 'em over there that's a leader, a natural born leader, a little old guy, man, the smartest one of 'em, you know. He has a phobia about white kids, you know. (laughs) Hell, they put him out of school every week.
349HJ: (inaudible) like that, right.
350627 CA: Rufus Lewis came over tellin'-you know, the cop? He works over at their school, the junior high, as an officer over there. And he said, "I just don't understand, you know, we had him in the office over there. We have a-this little guy, man, you know, he don't weigh eighty pounds, man. Man, I hit him right there and he went down and then I pushed the-I put the Central Park stomp on him." You know, he's talkin' about a white kid. Every week they're puttin' him out school, but-it's a wonder they haven't suspended him. But, Rufus says the boy's a brilliant boy, mental, you know. But he just hates white people, you know?
351HJ: There's a lot of 'em. There's a lot of them the same way.
352691 CA: But all those kids follow him. You know. And he's got maybe fifteen little boys that follow him and believe everything he says, a natural leader, man. All we've got to do is just channel him in the right direction and he'd be one of our upcomin' young-young- because he's about fifteen years old now, you know. He looks like he's ten, but he's fifteen years old. But, we aren't gonna give up on those kids, man, because you'd be surprised at how smart some of 'em are and the aptitude that they have, you know, for learning. But you've just got to channel 'em right. You know, they don't have any fathers, most of 'em. They don't have any kind of home life and you've just got to try to-
353812 We're gonna start a golf program, too. And I'm gonna donate, personally, a couple of sets of clubs. And a-we're gonna get, maybe, fifteen of 'em out there, or twenty-as many as want to go, you know, our club. And we're gonna-of course, we've got to go beg. Those golf clubs are expensive. You know, we're talkin' about $250 to $300 for a set, see? But I can get some from Winn-Dixie, and Charlie Lykes, and crackers like that to donate clubs to help those kids. Because that's a good clean sport. And they've got no black kids are in anywhere in the country, knowin' we could do it. None of 'em. White boys are makin' all that money out there on the golf tour and they started when they were seven, eight, nine years old, like [Jack] Nicklaus and all those boys. But we're into basketball, baseball and football.
354HJ: That's right.
35545 CA: We can get all messed up and all hurt up-
356OA: We're accustomed to tennis.
35780 CA: -but in golf, there's big money in it and blacks just aren't in it yet, see?
358OA Not only that, but we've got a lot of decisions to make.
359491 CA: It's a good concentration game. We're gonna get some of those kids out there this summer. We gave a tournament last weekend and made, maybe, $1100 or $1200. So, we're gonna take those funds and put into clubs for those kids, golf clubs. I guess we have to get cars to take them out there, you know. Summers, you know, we get the longer days where they can get classes, you know, in group-get the pros out there to teach 'em. And once a kid gets interested in that, boy, that's-he can go.
360498 Our tournament this weekend, all the white boys won the top prizes. A boy from the University of South Florida, Joe Hard, nineteen years old, shot that course in one under par. And that's a tough course. My brother was in there, and my brother's probably the best black amateur in the city, and he was say-yeah, man, a fanatic. Scufflin' with that white boy, hell, he's forty-seven years old, you know, you lose it just like in any other athletics. You know, you lose it when you get a certain age.
361Man, he say, "Man, them boys puttin' some shots on me." Just hung in there. He finished 5th. But the top prizes were four places. So he finished 5th you see? Them four white boys, pictures will be in the paper Friday, won the top prizes, and all of 'em young. One boy from MacDill look like he was about twenty. But they've been playin' golf since they nine, ten years old, see? And that ain't right. We ought to have some black boys in there takin' those prizes.
362OA: Well, can you think of anything that we've missed in terms of the paper? We've talked about the staff, circulation, history, to some extent. Can anybody think of anything else?
363HJ: Well, I want to know why the price on the paper's so low.
364728 CA: Well, let me tell you about that now. We started out at ten cents in the 1950s. To make a long story short, I'm scared to raise the price another nickel. See, what we do now, we get twelve cents for each paper and the agent gets eight cents, see? When we went up from fifteen to twenty, we lost 3,000 circulation. They resent price increases. Black people resent flat price increases of any kind in the newspaper business. We had to raise our advertising rates, but 98 percent of our advertising comes from white folk. And very few of them kick. But when talk about the buying public out there, that lower class or under-class or underprivileged person, you raise it another nickel, you may lose a couple thousand more, see.
365Now that would solve my problems overnight. See, if I raised it to twenty-five cents, I'd get fifteen and give the boys ten, see, for each paper sold. No problem. Because you're talkin' about 27,000-there's two-no, three-that's $810 extra per edition. So you're talkin' about two times that. That's $1,620 extra money I'd take in just from circulation alone in a week. That'd solve all my problems. And I've thought about that, too. And that's a hell of a question he asked. We should be gettin' twenty-five cents. They're gettin' twenty-five cents in Miami and they're gettin' it everywhere else. But Tampa is a funny town.
366OA: It is a funny town.
367CA: It's a hell of a town.
368HJ: It's somethin' else.
369289 CA: Man, you'd be surprised. Like, downtown newsstand, they sell two hundred papers a issue. When we raised that price from fifteen to twenty cents they went down to 115. That's the way it was droppin' off everywhere. "Hey, we ain't gonna make those 'niggers' rich." Hey, so and so and so-
370OA: Yeah, they run that.
3711032 CA: So-and we're talkin' about six or seven years ago that we raised the price. We should have raised-you should raise your price. The ways things are goin' now, you know, the Tribune raises it about every four or five years. We should raise it every three or four years too, see? But you can't do it. You have to try to get your revenue. We raised our rates, maybe fifty cents-what they call fifty cents an inch-and no problem, man. In fact, the national people-our national representatives-there's a group of national advertisers in New York, they're based in New York and Chicago-say, "Hell man, your national rate is too low. Get it up," you know. We can get it, you know. This came from Cutler's office. We can get it, man, from the big national advertisers. So we raised the rate fifty cents an inch. You're talkin' about-that's a big hike. And no problem, man. Those checks come in here every month from the national advertisers, man, I be just smilin', you know, because there's no problem. But you talk about raisin' your-
372end of interview
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COPYRIGHT NOTICE This Oral History is copyrighted by the University of South Florida Libraries Oral History Program on behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of South Florida. Copyright, 2009, University of South Florida. All rights, reserved This oral history may be used for research, instruction, and private study under the provisions of the Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of the United States Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section 107), which allows limited use of copyrig hted materials under certain conditions. Fair Use limits the amount of material that may be used. For all other permissions and requests, contact the UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA LIBRARIES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at the University of South Florida, 4202 E. Fo wler Avenue, LIB 122, Tampa, FL 33620.

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1 Otis R. Anthony African Americans in Florida Oral History Project Oral History Program Florida Studies Center University of South Florida, Tampa Library Digital Object Identifier: A31 00004 Interviewee: C. Blythe Andrews Jr. (CA) Interview ers : Otis An thony (OA), Herbert Jones (HJ), Shirley Smith (SS) Interview date: February 15, 1978 Interview location: Unknown Transcribed by: Unknown Transcription date: Unknown Interview Changes by: Kimberly Nordon Interview Changes date: December 4, 2008 Final E dit by: Mary Beth Isaacson Final Edit date: January 15, 2009 Otis Anthony : We began about t he period of about 1500, okay? W e're doin' it sort of chronological and a kind of chronological history right now that sums up basic some of the cigar industry c oming of the railroads, and the black troops who came into Tampa with Roosevelt in 19 during the Spanish American War. So we're pretty much summin' up that section. We have a man by the name of Tony Pizzo who we're going to talk to about that. And we hav e all the materials o n that. When we get into the period of World War I and the 1920s we need to know if there are any old Sentinels that we can get into to help us assist us in that area. You go back that far? C Blythe A ndrews, Jr. : Well, we go back tha t far, but I wouldn't know OA : Oh, they did? CA: anything that we would have up until 1945. The paper is much older than that, but we don't have any old copies of OA : Oh, I see. CA: that dates back beyond forty five [19 45 ] OA : Okay. That's the i nformation too. We need to kno w how far we could go back in o kay, the other thing that we need to from you is when could we have, or could we have the opportunity to go through the old papers or old records, that type of t hing, and pick up w hatever relev ant information. CA: Yeah. OA : Okay.

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2 CA: We'll set up some times that I'll be OA: (inaudible) CA: (inaudible) OA: Okay. W ell, what we decided to do was just ask everybody to just jot down o n a piece of the kind of question that they would like to as k you about the project. The main things that we want to get a history of the Sentinel okay, as part and parcel of the black media, and your feelings about its contribution. That type of thing. We want to get a biography o n you. We want to get a biography o n your father, so we may have to break this down into different sessions. I don't know. But however much time you have time today. And then we need to get an idea from you of the kind of people that you think we need to talk to really get a comprehensive history of black folk in this community. CA: Where do you want to start? OA : Well, let's start with the history of the Bulletin CA: All I'm going to tell you. OA : Okay (laughs). CA: I've come across something myself. I thought we dated back to 191 9, but I came across this little book here. And this guy here is the is suppos ed to have been the founder of t he Florida Sentinel back in the 1890s. The guy's name is Mathew Loui s Florida's first black newspaper. And he supposedly started this paper in 1 887, in Gainesville. OA : What did they call it then, t he Florida Sentinel ? CA: The Florida Sentinel OA : Twelve Histories by Dr. Muir. CA: Yeah. OA: And he was in material I've read something and they called it something else too around in the 1920 s or so. The Challenger or something like that? The Bulletin or it was CA: It was the Florida Bulletin OA : Was that true? Something like that? Was it in Jacksonville?

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3 Herbert Jones : Okay, there was a paper that came out of St. Petersburg. It was a bl ack paper. What was the name of that one, do you know? CA: No, that paper's relatively new It was t he Weekly Challenger It's about eight years old. OA : Was the paper ever located in Jacksonville? CA: Yeah. That's where we date from. Where my daddy I mean my grandfather had it then, in 1919, i n Jacksonville. That's W.W. Andrews. In 1 931 the Depression took it (inaudible) in 1931. Then my daddy started it back in 1945. OA : What kind of atmosphere was there during that time for a black newspaper, start ing it or ? C. Blythe Andrews: I don't date back that far. I date back a long way but OA : No. I know you don't date back that but, I mean, you know, in terms of information that's been shared with me. CA: Well, it's the same problem that exi s ts today. People consider the advertisers consider a black paper and black radio stations as what they called a secondary medium. We get the "droppings" of adverti sing, the advertis ing budget. During those days circulation paid the bills for black newspapers. When i n all other newspapers advertis ing paid your profit, paid your bills, paid your (inaudible). So we re just the opposite. OA : Okay, so how did your dad go about starting t he Florida Sentinel ? CA: He was an official of Central Life Insurance Company. He so ld his stock in thirty nine [19 39 ] and became a writer for a real estate broker and a writer for the Tampa Bulletin He also had this lodge thing 1 and t he Tampa Bulletin was more or less associated with the Grand Union Pallbearers Paul Berry' s o rganiz s ti ll with h is organization and they refuse d to put out the news of what they were doing in the paper eve n though he was a columnist S o he started his own paper called the (inaudble) b ecause he'd been in it all his life except for that period from thirty on e [19 31 ] to forty five [19 45 ]. So OA : So he just started out as typin' and x eroxin' it, or mimeo g raphin' himself or else? CA: No. He brought a press, what you call a flatbed press and two linotypes and he had a building on Central so it was it would hav e been right around the corner from the building. And, of course, during those days, as I s aid earlier, the paper existed o n 1 The Lily White Lodge was an African American organization that provides burial benefits and health care. The Andrews family was highly involved, and C. Blythe Andrews, Sr., was the state organization's grand presiden t in the late 1950s.

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4 circulation. Very little adverti s ing. You'll se e when you go through those issues back then, there's very little adverti s ing. OA : What was the main source of information given in the paper? CA: The s ame thing OA : Same thing that's (inaudible) now? CA: Church and social news, just a mirage of all types of news that the w hite papers wouldn't print and still don't print. OA : What r o le did t he Sentinel exhibit o n Tampa early history, particularly to economics and social aspects? CA: You mean you wa n t what role did that it played o n uplifting the community? What role did he [Andrews Sr.] see himself playin' or the paper playin'? OA : Well, at that time when there were no black policeman would got some old pictures here. The first black policeman back in fifty one [19 51 ] The first black policeman down CA: Of course they couldn't arrest any white folks you know. They just arrested blacks o n Central. OA : Yeah, pictures are gonna be another area that yo u could help us with on we really, really CA: I got a lot of 'em stored away. OA : Oh, yeah. (Several voices speak simultaneously) Shirley Smith: (inaudible) CA: That's at old Phillip s Field, you know where we used to play the all the ballgames. The campaign for street lighting, paved streets, which is during the (inaudible) thirties [1930' s ] P ause in recording OA : Were the black newspapers organized, in terms of were there publishers group s really communcating across the state or across the nation similar to what you have with the Publisher's Association (inaudible)?

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5 CA: Yeah. We had it. It was a smaller association then, but it was very strong. OA : A state, or what? CA : Nationwide. It's the NNPA, National Newspaper Publisher's Association. Of course, that campaign went right through the fifties [19 5 0 s] fifty nine[1959], t he Bulletin more or less, almost failed so we bought that's how we became from the Florida Sentine l to the Florida Sentinel Bulletin We star ted publishing twice a week in fifty nine [19 59 ] But the campaign since my time from when I got back here in fifty one [19 51 ] I used to work there when we first started when I was, you know, in junior and high school so t he campaign from forty five [19 45 ] through, say, to 1960 was the sure thing, more black policemen, more street lighting, more paved streets, playgrounds because we had none in those days and I know when I was in high school we played o n outdo or basketball courts. You know, we had no gyms for our high scho ols. And, we played basketball o n outdoor courts and so that was the campaign. And then in fifty nine [19 59 ] we started twice a week because of the well, the Bulletin was failin' and we had no way to get our funeral notices, the white papers wouldn't print funeral n otices. And they still don't, twenty almost twenty years later nineteen years later. So that was the reason we came out twice a week, to accommodate the funeral directors who wer e instrumental in gettin' us to come out with a weekend edition, to print their funeral notices. OA : I noticed something, I think I read i n one of your father's articles. W hat was the connection between the [Marcus] Garvey influence in the early part of t he fifties [19 50s ]? D id he ever talk about that? CA: Yeah, he talked about that a OA : Was that a real strong strand in his thinking and writing or was it was just a CA: What, back to Africa move? OA : something that dominated the period? Yeah. CA: No, I don't think so. Both he and I are differed. It's like, you know, because of the chronology of age. Just like you and I would differ because of o n certain issues because of age the age difference. But I h e never really h e was just a promoter of bla ck businesses and other things, as I told you, you know, I mean, and he used those as examples of what blacks had to do to get ahead in business. Because regardless of what many of u s think, this country is based o n economics. And the bad thing that I've a lways contende d is guys like Otis Anthony and like, these young people here are in divisions where there's really no money, you know? OA : Yeah.

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6 CA: And that people like you, are better minds I'm trying to say. Well, you take those y ou take everybody you can think of, Goosby [Jones] Augusta [Thomas] all of us, see, are not in the main they' r e in the mainstream of middle class income, see, but the y' r e not we re not in the mainstream of upper middle class and wealth because we aren't in businesses. See? A nd this is what, one of the few things I agreed with him on, you know, that our better minds Well, even during the sixties [19 60s ] the fights during the sixties [19 60s ] y ou take James Ham mond you take Goosby Jones, the guys that were in the forefront of the fight of the sixties [19 60s ] the early sixties [19 60s ],well, hell, they're down they' r e hired by the power structure now and they can only do so much to better conditions of not only their people, but themselves also. OA : Because we don't have tha t kind of independence. CA: Right. But then o n the other hand you have to look at these banks aren't gonna loan you any money, you know, to go into business. And we re just in a vis e. You know, we re really in bad shape in this country. HJ : That's what we were talking about, remember? CA: We're in bad shape. I went down this will be personal a nd I went down the other day and Columbia Bank that's where we do all of our banking and I said, "I need $10,000 ." [Bank worker : ] "O h, no problem." So I went to si gn the papers and my wife just goes in and comes in after school and signed it. And I went in and she s aid; "We l l, look here we've got a mortgage on your property over here o n 14th Street." I said, "You're a damn liar if you're puttin' a mortgage o n my pr operty." And the president of the bank told me, he said I can get the money uncollateralized, you don't put up nothing. "Oh, I'm sorry." You know. Well, I say, okay. I turned out the b a nk, the branch bank over there o n Adamo, that's about three weeks ago He called me, "You act like a redneck." I said, "Listen, Mr. Grimaldi I run $1.5 million through that da m n bank every year. You know, I've got the maximum in savings in there, in that bank, and I want to be treated just like Dr. Stoto and Dr. Loto and a ll them others. I was tellin' about all the rest of them who got some money in your bank and I'm not gonna mortgage anything for a lousy $10,000. [Banker: ] "Come o n in and get the money." But I didn't have h aven't had h adn't had any money in there t hat's we didn't I'm ta lkin' about checkin', now. W e run that kind of money through in checking, a year, from the three businesses : Tampa Park, this one and the [Lily White] Lodge. He told me to go to hell. OA : So every black startin' up could actually forget a bout it. CA: So you can imagine what I'm talkin' about.

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7 OA : Yeah, I see. CA: You go in there to get $500 they're gonna want the car or a second mortgage o n your house. And I know some teachers right out in my neighborhood who have come across that kin d of thing. And that's not right. See. It's j ust not right. So We're off o n a tangent now but the mainstream is that we just aren't in that It's just y ou don't know what we go through here to get adverti s ing A nd people tell you all kinds of things, li ke Pantry Pride. T hey've got a big s tore out there, blacks doin' all kinds of business there. I was in the grocery business so I know they must be doin' $40,000 a week there. If we were doin' $25 [thousand] a week over there, I know they're doin' $40,000 there. "Oh, Andrews, we're havin' budget is just down to nothin' and well just have to put you in next year, in seventy nine [19 79 ] ." They dropped out. Now, you're talkin' about a $16,000 a year account. They don't give a damn about us. You're secondary. E ckerd Drugs, the same thing. You remember when, last year, we had Eckerd Drugs. The s ame thing. OA : Yeah. CA: Here's a company doin' right at a billion dollars a year and blacks buy like hell there, but you're secondary. The newspaper is secondary. Black newspapers are secondary to white folks. So that's another about $18,000 a year we lost in s o you're talkin' about $34,000 a year in adverti s ing revenues that we lost but they don't give a damn about us. OA : I believe that. I once read a statistics once I think the w hat's the group that prints this Focus ? What's the group? The Center for prints Focus I think they had a statistic in there once that said that all the black business assets combined does not amount to the assets of the last of the Fortune 50 0, list of Fortune 500 businesses. CA: Who are your biggest black businesses? It's Motow n and they do about $50 million, Motown records. Oh, you can think of ten, fifteen businesses right here in Tampa that do that kind of money. Singleton Shrimp, $60 mil lion. They had the big s tory in the paper. Singleton Shrimp Company is bigger than our biggest business in the whole United States. So we just make up one percent of the per capita income, businesswise, in this country, all the black businesses combined. B ut it's not because we aren't serving, it's because they have the capital the money to spend. And if they don't spend it with black businesses, if they don't give the Otis Anthonys a chance, if we've got an idea If a white boy goes in there with a ide a he ll get the money without all this mess that they put blacks through, i f Otis Anthony's got a hell of an idea, he's a young man with a bright future, they should let you have the money. B ut they won't do it. Got a program here, just came in this mornin g, about Minority Bank Credit Line, Borg Warner, Million Dollar program. This is the la rgest black bank in the country, Independence, in Chica go. They're puttin' $9.6 in blac k banks. That's a drop in the bucket. OA : It is.

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8 CA: And they've got Popular Ban k here, of Tampa, who have a million dollars to loan somebody. The Popular Bank of Tampa is one of sixty minority owned banks. I don't know where in hell they get that "minority owned ." OA : That's what I was (inaudible). CA: (inaudible) You know, this i s "bull man. OA : Okay, you mentioned that you used to work from time to time with the paper after fifty one [19 51 ] What role, after the let's say for example, the Brown decision, can you remember what role the Sentinel played in terms of that historic decision? That type of thing. CA: Well, we re fightin' as you'll see in the old bound copies we were fightin' for the implementation of that which they (inaudible) took, i n Tampa, how many years, about seventeen years, didn't they, to implement. OA : Any thing that you can think of you can mention to us in that period, you know, from the Brown decision up to the present in terms of the Sentinel 's role. CA: You know we've got copies back to forty five [19 45 ] You can go through there and OA : Okay. CA: I know when I first got back, of course it was before t hat decision, see, that was in fifty four [19 54 ] wasn't it? OA : Um humm. CA: Before I got back I know, I'd just come out of the A rmy and I got back with a masters degree in journalism I went down in to the city court to start coverin' the incidents down there. And Judge Johnson had just gotten on the bench Bob Johnson. I went walkin' up there, man, you know, where th e other white reporters were. What's you doin' up here boy? Get back there in the ba ck. You know. I never forgot that as long as I live, you know. S o, then I worked out a system. I said I wasn't gonna be outdone. I worked out a system with o ne of the officers down there white officers to get the reports. Then I'd just have to sit in the back of the courtroom and strain and listen to the results of the cases, you know. Sittin' in the back in the what you call the buzzard's roost, in those days, i t's a hell of a thing, man. And the country was worse. See, the count y was worse. They wouldn't even give you the you know, "Oh, the 'nigger' newspaperman." But, those are experiences that I encountered as a reporter back in those days. And it went

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9 o n through all the fifties [19 50 s ] And they'd j ust insult you, man, j ust officers, white o fficers, the j udges and all just insult you, m an, just So OA : One other thing we were thinking about, we'd probably find this into w hat do you think were the most significant elections and the kind of political figures that were involved that sort of cou ld show a pattern of blacks comin' into any kind of political maturity in this community? And it just seems that it let's say, the Poe election. W e had come to maybe some sign of political maturity at that point and we wanted to CA: We l l, we had OA : A nd we wanted to try to trace that in terms of history. CA: We had some pol itical maturity that backfired o n us. I'll tell you what happened. In 1956 w ell, it was the old idea that a lot of people still try to pull on y ou have the Latins over here and then the blacks. So Nick Nuccio, who was a county commissioner at the time, came to us and said, "Okay, don't you worry about a thing if I get into office. Now, we re all minorities. Crackers, he said it just like that, "[are] trying to take over the town. Bu t if we get together we can run this town. If I get elected I'll take care of y'all." Typical, yo u know, same thing that's gone o n over the years. OA : That's right. CA: Nick Nuccio got in there and did not hin'. All right, 1960 election Julian Lane came o n the scene, picked by the power structure to help try to get the Latins out of office, the top office in town. And I never will forget it as long a s I live. It was in fifty nine [1959] All the blacks were all with Nuccio. And Geddy B. Wilde and his 77th Club were the only people o n Julian Lane's side. You know they were runnin' a gamblin' house over there o n Howard Avenue. And I think Julian Lane got maybe two hundred black votes out of that election. OA : That was in 1960? CA: But he won. OA : But he wo n? CA: Yeah. The white folks, all the Anglo S axons ganged up and beat the Latins and the black. So now we've got Julian Lane in office. Julian Lane comes out, gives us this OA: That would be fifty nine [19 59 ] CA: Yeah. Gives us some street paving. Giv e u s lights. He gave us the other nine holes of the city dump out there at Rowlett Park. They had a big dedication ceremony out there to dedicate the new city dump for the other nine holes for a black golf course. So the man sold himself to blacks. Now, we all get together down at Perry's place, all the

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10 blacks. So Nick's run nin' for re election now, it's sixty three [19 63 ], runnin' for re election. W e're gonna show Nick Nuccio that we've got us a good man now, you know. We raised close to $4,000 for Julia n Lane. I ran a big story about it, which was a mistake, because the white folks said, "Oh, he's a 'nigger lover' now see. They read the paper, he's a "nigger lover" now. And Nuccio won that race. So now blacks o n the outside again because Lane was def eated. And here we had put all this money in the campaign. We made some bad mistakes by publicizing that. We made Hammond and myself and two or three others, Perry Harvey, you know, the usual crew, we just w e did the right thing in raising and not acceptin g money from these politicians. But it backfired o n us because the w hite community didn't like it. So there we got defeated again. So now we were faced with Nuccio who did nothin' until Greco came on. Political obligations, we just felt that the power str ucture just never liked Nuccio and they fought him every little thing he did. Every time he put in a sidewalk they "Hey, this man, all he knows how to do t his town is growin' and all he knows how to do is put in sidewalks and build benches with his, you kn ow, with city money." So the paper didn't go with him. We went back with Nuccio. But the power structure went with an Italian this time, Greco. And that's how Greco won. So we had Greco and bring it right o n up to current times. OA : So out of that exper ience a lot was learned, you say. CA: Oh, yeah. OA : And what do you think about the most recent election, the national election, in terms of Carter, in terms of the black community coming to political maturity? CA: I don't think we (inaudible) a thing. We demonstrated that. OA : Did you think it also trickled down to the local level? CA: In time, hopefully. See, it's not a good thing. A lot of people think I don't know it all, but I've been out here twenty eight years, been a man twenty eight years it's not a good thing. I'm not mad with Otis Anthony or this lady if she's with Joe Blow out there and I'm with somebody else. You know, blacks have a tendency, and I've seen it over the years, don't speak to people and, you know, cause he's o n somebody's sid e I don't want to speak to him he ain't got no sense ," and all that kind of w e need that in politics. We need it. If you're with Joe Kotvas and I'm with Billy Poe and you were with somebody else runnin' in the race so what ? You know? OA : That's right. C A: Why should I get mad with him or you or anybody else because somebody else has

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11 different idea from mine? See? Do you see what I'm sayin'? And blacks have a tendency, not only here, but I understand nationwide, some of these national leaders I've talked with, will get angry as hell with somebody I mean get angry with friends because they're with somebody else, you know. An d, locally, it's a good thing, y ou know. We've got a situation now, I'm not gonna call any names, but one person in a family is for o ne person and the other person in the family's with the othe r person. So they called me and (inaudible) I said, "M an, so what ?" Why argue, you know, and fight among yourselves, you know? If both of 'em got a good chances to win at least one of you all be o n somebody's side one will be a l oser and one will be a winner. As long as you don't sell your people down the river for some racist. You know, now, I'm not talkin' about y eah, I'm gonna be mad with you if you're with George Wallace. OA : Yeah. CA: You k now, but I mean with a good viable candidate, so what. OA : But what about, then, the old concept of the coalition between Latins, blacks and whoever? Is it workable? Can it work in reality? CA: No it can't work. OA : Can't work. CA: I don't think so. I t can't work. These people, I've found, don't keep their words. A man, if a man's word is nothin' he's nothin'. I don't care who he is nor what his status in life is. If his word i f I'm committed a nd these candidat es comin' in here everyday now Bruce Smat hers, the biggest racist in the state of Florida sat right there where that lady's sittin' yesterday, and oh, he said I just listened to him. And I told him that I've got an editorial board and I'm not makin' decisions myself. I'll have the final sa y, but I want somebody else in o n it. That's the way I got rid of him. And I'm tellin' 'em all that. I'm gonna have Rudolph Harris in here. I'm gonna have the lady that's the managin' editor here. I may have (inaudible) in. They've got ideas, and if they've got q uestions, just like the Tribune and the rest of 'em do, you know, rather than being a one man show. OA : Yeah, I see. CA: He sat an hour with all that bull, man, just going in one ear and right out the other. He had his whole entourage here. But I ai n't i nterested in that racist, a bout his dad and all that. And his dad is the one that beat [Claude] Pepper you know. 2 And that racist those racist tactics in the fifties [19 50 s ] And he's just like his daddy. He's just thirty four years old, a real tall hands ome cat and he thinks the women gonna just women go for them 2 Bruce Smathers was a state senator and FL Secretary of State in the 1970s. He was the son of Senator George Smathers. Andrews is referring to the 1951 election for senator, in which George Smathers defeated Claude Pepper.

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12 good lookin' candidates. He's gonna get a lot of women's votes. And he may win, but I ain't gonna be with him. Not me. Tape 1, side 1 ends; tape 1, side 2 begins CA: Williams gonna be tough be cause he's got the governor's staff behind him. Not the staff, but he's got the governor's machine behind him. And, of course, the man that's the big man in that race, Nelson d'Itali ano, who wants to stay in power, typical Italian, he runs the Sp orts Autho rity with iron hand. He tries to run p atronage in this county with an iron hand and always whi sperin' to you about what he's d one for black people and you ought to be here and there. And, you know, and I haven't shown up to any of those things that he's in vited me to because I ain't interested in no Williams. There's a man worth $5 or $6 million dollars, no kind of personality, you know, and hates black people, you know. H e fought the human rights thing. OA : Yeah. CA: You know, and so what the hell I look like goin' to some function for him? Showin' up, you know i t's best to w hat I'm tryin' to say is take a stand and stick with it even if you l ose. OA : I see. CA: And a lot of people haven't learned that, you know, they get mad with you and politicians ge t mad with you, but I just can't help it, y ou know. Because I'm not gonna sacrifice my prin ciples for a racist out there, o r these Italians, most of 'em, whose word ain't worth a quarter, named Bob Bon di 3 Look what he did down there at the Commission, ta lkin' about runnin' for mayor. A lot of black peo ple gonna be o n his side. He put that woman out of business out there. He fought that affirmative action thing down there. He's done a lot of things. And he's o n the Sport s Authority. And he and I had it d own there. Why, you've probably read it in the Tribune Speakin' for me, you don't speak for me, you know, o n a issue. But I ain 't lookin' for no recognition, you know. See, h e ought to be gettin' recognition as head of the so and so. And then he went to t he Italians, Agliano, and got that fish market down there you know, they ain't recognizing h e's trying to speak for all the minorities o n the Sports Authority and I just told him off right there in front of the press, everybody. I just ain't got no confide nce in 'em 99 percent of 'em. OA : Okay. Another thing, what about the issue of single member districts? W hat kind of future do you think it has in the community? CA: We're gonna have to sue over it. Somebody's gonna have to sue to get single member. That 's the only way we're gonna ever get anybody elected. I'm not talkin' about these super blacks now. R ev. Lowry is overly qualified, y ou know. But for the average 3 County Co mmissioner (1974 1979), lost mayoral race in 1979.

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13 Joe Blow out there, for me, you, or this man or this man or this lady to get elected we're go nna have to have single member districts. E very local election, and o n a national basis too, you know, we're gonna have to sue to get it. Because the white folks ain't gonna give it till we take it. OA : Do you think we can put faith in a justice departmen t type suit or we need something a little more outside, say ACLU [American Civil Liberties Union] type of suit or something like Julian Bond's S outhern (inaudible)? Y ou think either one of 'em gonna go through? CA: Either one. Now, if you go through fede ral courts it'll be four or five years. OA : Yeah, that was my opinion. You know, when it came in, I figu re that's gonna take too long, s till be goin'. What would have to happen, we'd have to sue as a group or we need some individual black to bring the sui t in their name? CA: A class action suit or an individual. An individual or a class action suit. OA : But we'd have to raise the money to put that suit, that's the thing, right? CA: Any of these black lawyers who weren't so money hungry OA : They could take it on CA: take it right o n through and we pay their expenses. And we wouldn't need a whole lot of money. OA : And it has been done in other places. CA: It has been done in other places. They did it in Jacksonville. OA : I heard something about th e State Constitution revision committees debating the issue and the governor supposedly come out in support, is that true? Single member districts? CA: Well, you're talking about a lame duck governor [Reubin Askew] Yeah, he would come out and OA : Say a nything. CA: say anything now. Yeah, I'm for it. But he's goin' out of office. Of course, the man has been fa ir, reasonably fair, you know, o n black appointments, political (inaudible) and something like that. Some people Black s shouldn't forget Jan Pla tt, now. Had all those t hey had it, single members districts. S he got it changed and with the help of the Tribune you know, all that publicity and everything they got those people back down, the committee back down and changed a lot of the clauses in ther e that's over ruled single

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14 member districts. OA : That was w ho was that? CA: She's a member of that committee you know. OA : She was? No I didn't. CA: Sure. Jan Platt, that's the one that fought it. OA : That fought it, huh. CA: And she got the Tribune behind her because they don't want any blacks elected. You know, they're gonna use Rev. Lowry as the "last t his is what can happen with the right candidate." See? OA : Yeah. CA: It's "tok enism." And just like they put me o n the Sports Authority. They put Alton [White] up in the mayor's office. They elect Rev. Lowry. It's "tokenism." You know it's just sickening. OA : And then, people like, for example, Representative Joy Sheldon, they came out for it, right? CA: Um hmm. HJ : Those guys, you've got to p ush. OA: Okay. H ave you had a chance to attend any of the recent meetings of the National Newspaper Publishers Association, that type of thing? CA: No, I haven't been to one, honestly, since sixty four [196 4 ] when Johnson came into office. We had a meeti ng up there and met him and all that. I haven't attended one. I haven't been able to leave here. OA : Have you got any indication whether they are taking any new directions in terms of the black media or what their thrust is going to be politically? CA: T hey send out, in fact I got one a couple days ago, they send out newsletters, you know, what's goin' an and w e have a dynamic leader now. His name is Dr. Carlton Goodl ett, who is a Ph D and a M.D., a psychiatrist out in San Francisco. He's worth $2 or $3 million dollars, very wealthy S o b ut he's the one that you see all the national adverti s ing we're gettin' now, these cars and all that, he's directly responsible for that. OA : Oh, I see.

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15 CA: Gettin' that for black papers. OA : Yeah. CA: Because he went to the boards of these companies, personally, and s old 'em, you know, as a national ad. There's a national ad. He's directly responsible for that. And he doesn't bite his tongue. He just h e's probably the most brillia nt man I've ever met in my lifetime, y ou know OA : Uh huh. CA: black or white. And he carries these figures in his head. He's just a genius, man. Doin' business and knowin' what to say and what not to say and when to say it. He's just a master at it, you know. He's got about seven or eight papers out there in California. He's buyin' up everything out there, you know, black papers. OA : Um hmm. CA: It's just a sideli ne with him. You know, he's got plenty of money and he doesn't have to do what he's doin' because he's so wealthy himself, but he's doin' this for black papers in the country. And they y ou know, you're gonna have to just n obody's thinkin' about runni n' against him anyway, you know. B ut we just hope that he ll stay there and not resign or something like that, you know, get tired, s ee, because he means so much to all of us. When he speaks that's it, man. Y ou can hear a pin drop. OA : Do you all have any more questions? HJ: What is your viewpoint o n the black community, say, in the sixties [19 60s ] ? The actions? CA: Well, that was a period of change. They had the sit ins. They had the police brutality cases. They had changed from a totally segregated society to a society of partial segregation is what I call it. And we're still in that stage. OA : Yeah. CA: With the cost of livin' l ike it is now it's hard for even a middle class black to enjoy the fruits of what's transpired in the fifties [19 50s ] and the sixties [19 60s ] If you go and get a hotel room or go to dinner somewhere it's gonna cost you $18 to $20 a good dinner, you know other than Morrison's and blacks just can't enjoy those. The majority, I'd say 90 percent of them, can't enjoy what integration has brought us. So we r e in a, as I said earlier, a vise, you know, a vise, man. W e just in the grips of economic disaster. T he kind of programs that you promote, if we didn't have those I don't know what we'd do. You know, you and Campbell over ther e have to fight to get the few j obs that are available. If get funding for 'em, we'd be i n a man, we'd be we'd be o n the verge of

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16 a nother revolution There's no question about it. B ecause it's bad. It's bad out here. HJ : It's serious CA: The white man is sayin' that I've got you where I want you. You're poorer than you were in the fifties [19 50s ] and the sixties [19 60s ] because o f inflation. A man makin' $7,000, a man makin' $15,000 which is like I'm tellin' you. Like, in the fifties [19 50s ], I started off with a master's degree at $35 a week, man, and that's what my daddy started me off with in 1951. I moved here was sent throug h college here, I made it, you know. I didn't have no car or anything, you know, but I made it with a new wife and everything. But, hell, man, you know y ou can imagine that's maybe like $100 a day, you know, $100 a week. That's the way I equate it, you kno w, I say things up at least three times or two times what it was then. So I just figure that $35 is like $100 today. OA : Yeah. CA: And I was scufflin' then so I can imagine what a person makin' $100 or $125 tod ay is, you know. H e just can't make it. OA : That's right. When you consider the poor carryin' these high utility bills and unemployed and being laid off, it seems ridiculous that people could even survive. CA: That's right. HJ : (inaudible) Do you have a real biography, you know, where any progra m you've been o n someone did a biography for you, introduced you, or maybe a written biograp hy of your father, or somethin'? H ow could we get that? CA: I've got one ar ound here somewhere of my daddy. I ca n give you that. I've done one o n myself some and a few of 'em. I've got 'em around here somewhere. I can get it up for you. HJ : Okay. All right. CA: But, anyway I can help you (inaudible). OA : You also affiliated with the Lily White Lodge and CA: President, yeah. OA : (inaudible) Yeah. Okay. CA: I w as the project manager. I'm very familiar over there. OA : Okay. You said you had three businesses. W hat are they?

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17 CA: The Lodge, Tampa Park and this. OA : Tampa Park, housing? CA: Apartments, yeah. OA : Oh, yeah. Would the Lodge have any historical rec ord that you think would be important to us. Like, records of minutes or anything that would help us in terms of CA: I do n't know a They did a story in the Tribune about us a couple of years ago. See the lodge, all lodges now are not black lodges are no t what they used to be because back in the thirties [1930s] and forties [194 0s ] you couldn't buy insurance. You know, blacks couldn't buy insurance from Metropolitan, Prudential or any of the se insurance companies and the L odge was a stop gap for black ins urance. In other words, a ll the L odge is, even today, is a small insurance company. You pay so much and get so much a debt. We used to have hospital benefits. We used to have a small hospital. We used to have an old folks home for the old members. We had an ambulance at one time go all over the state pickin' up patients and bringin' 'em back to our hospital. We're talkin' about in the fifties [1950s] now. But, we haven't been able to keep up with the trend now because Otis Anthony and this man here and th is young fellow wouldn't be interested in a $350 death benefit when he died. So we aren't gettin' the younger people. We've got 10,000 members, but all I'm the youngest thing in there and I'm nearly fifty I'm forty eight you know. And I would say you don 't have well, other than our juniors and we've got maybe 2,000 juniors but the adult s in there, I would say, is not peop le in there younger than I am, s ee? Because the younger people aren 't interested. They just aren't i nterested in a $3 50 death benefit. See? But you d on 't pay but $20 a year for that. See? OA : Yeah. CA: And when we ha d a hospital you paid an extra d ollar or quarter which was $4 a year and you go t a hospital bed for $7 $10, you know, a nd free medical care. A nd i t damn near broke us. You k now before we realized what was happenin', you know, we had to close up the hospital. Of cou rse, when integration came that was another forty jobs gone because we had forty people workin' over there. The hospital no longer served its purpose. It couldn't serve the purpose. OA: (inaudible) hospital w hich hospital was that? CA: The Lily White H ospital. OA : The Lily White Hospital. I've heard of that. Clara Frye [Hospital] was what, state owned, or something? CA: That was operated by the city.

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18 OA : By t he city. CA: The s ame thing happened to it. When integration came nobody was goin' to Lily White Hospital or Clara Frye when they could go to Tampa General or Centro Asturiano, or any of these other big hospitals around where you got better care, better nursing, you know, better everything. It's a better facility. OA : So, integration has had a both a positive and a negative kind of affect an us in terms of our (inaudible). CA: Of course, if you look at it, if you get past Wilson's Funeral Home, Central Life and Community Federal and this business here, that's it in Tampa that's doin', say, half a million dollars or more a year in gross revenue. Jus' ain't no more. Back in the old days, in the forties [19 40s ] fifties [19 50s ], we had maybe another five o r six The hospital was doin' that kind of money. You had two or three businesses o n Central. Hell, we don't have but one bar owned by a black now. One! That's Grace over there. All the rest are owned by white folks. OA : It's hard to get a liquor license CA: In the fifties [19 50s ] when I came back here, we had Buddy's Bar down o n Central. We had Charlie Moon's old place his wife owned it. Johnny Gray had a bar. Brown down there had a (inaudible) a bar. Lee Davis had a bar. And Watts Sa nder son had a bar all right there o n Central. Then when they started that mess about cleanin' up Central and everything we had to move out here I 'm talkin' about sixty two [1962] now And Buddy moved o n Seventh [Avenue] He died right after that, see, and Shields took it over. And then since then they've just been Shields, when he got sick, just sold it, man, tryin' to get some money, y ou know, t o get money out of it. I think he got $40,000 for his license. And that's gone, s ee? Then when Grace came to town she bought the Ace from a white guy over there. That's the only bar we've got owned by a black in Tampa, i n the whole city where you've got 90,000 black people. OA : Are there any possibilities with what is happening in Tampa, with the Development Authority doin' all the about developing the city and opening up the airport to Europe, can we if we were thinking can we see any benefit to us, if they were re ally planning and thinking in th e process of any of that? CA: What benefit? OA : For black people, if we were thinking. CA: So your white folks have forgot about u s. They just act and say "W ell, they're just out there and don't think J ust like

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19 OA : That's what I get the feelin'. Everything i s ju st planned around us. HJ : Planned around us, you know. OA : And I'm tryin' to figure out y ou thi nk there's such a possibility? Y ou've been here a long time. I'm tryin' to figure out, you know, being so close to downtown I just wonder, CA: Well, they need s ee, they realize that they've got to have s ee, tha t's been the problem downtown. T hey don't have any housing. You take Jacksonvi lle, you take New Orleans, they 's people have got big h ousing developments just like right in a downtown area. Because people are livin' in suburbia now. There's no need for them to come dow ntown. That's why downtown dies. So they're gonna leave Central Park there. They're gonna leave Tampa Park there. Because you've got nine hundred families between the two of them. HJ : Then they're gonna build some higher income apartments close to CA: H igher income apartments closer to that development and then downtown will be revitalized. That's why they're fightin' so for that hotel. But they, just like you say, Otis, they are plannin' everything around us. OA : Are any black folks o n the Development Authority? CA: Mm hmm t hey have took Chuck Smith off the Sports Authority. He resigned and now he's chairman of that downtown developm ent. A big old cracker, about six foot, eight inches Chuck Smith Charles Smith. But he's a contractor. And he's gonna get some of that action down there when they go to buildin'. OA : And that seems to be a pattern around the state, r eally, because they're really tryin' to attract that business from the north and that weather even as far as Europe. CA: We're in bad shape to say the least. We're in bad shape. I went up to a United Negro College Fund meeting the other day. I saw Otha Favors. H e wasn't goin' there, but I jus t saw him. I looked around me. M an, you had Max Hollingworth of Winn Dixie, multi millionaire, he's t he chairm an, Charlie Lykes, Charlie Lykes of Lykes Brothers, that's one of the richest families in the whole United States Eugene Dodson of WTVT, he's the general manager Junior Lane, he's a millionaire, dairy T hey made their money when they sold all t hat land out there they built that subdivision, g oin' o n the way, where you used to go to Walker's Lake, o n the left there, that dairy over there? OA : Um hmm. CA: He sold all that, $3 or $4 million, to a developer to put house. And so he's a mil lionair e. All them millionaires (inaudible). Fredrick Hearns, and Clifford sittin' up in there. And that 'nigger' that's the head excuse me, you know, that's we're all black

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20 but that's what I said, the guy that's head of the whole fund in the state, he actin' lik e a jackass up there, you know, beggin' for money. Oh, Mr. S o and So J ust Uncle Tom and they it was sickening, y ou know? It was sickening. Are right, you tell Holloway, you know he's Gasparilla king a couple years ago, about sixty five years old. "You te ll Lee Roy Selmon we want him o n this committee." Well, Art Wiggins y ou know Art Wiggins senior vice preside nt of the First National Bank, we're in that big board room. M an well, o ne black did get a job up there bu ilt that big conference table, t hat co nferenc e table longer than this room, r ugs that thick on the 34th floor. Y ou can just see the whole city of Tampa. Oh, look at these white folks I say to myself, you know, "You tell Le e R oy Selmon [football player] we want him o n this committee." And A rt Wiggins got some kind of financial tie to him. "There'll be no problem. We want him to work the football teams and the coaches and everything. And t here'll be no problem. He'll be o n this committee." And I looked around and I said they got us. And they know it. "Blythe, anything I can do for you just let me know." This Charlie Lykes, oh it's cracker, man. But we had to go to them to get money for Bethune Cookman and the black colleges tha t are in the Florida Memorial, b ecause, see, they are the ones gonn a give the big money. I'm gonna give $500, that's all I can stand. You see what I'm sayin'? OA : Yeah. CA: This business will give $500. But the Lykes Brothers gonna give $5 or $10 a nd Winn Dixie, when we got ready for the luncheon, "Don't worry about it, we'll pick up the tab, the 'beef people' will pick up the tab." That's how it works. So you're talkin' maybe a thousand or more dollars right there. And plus they're gonna give $5 ,000 or $10,000 But that goal that they'v e got s o what the hell you gonna do? You got to go to the white folks to get money because we ain't got none. HJ : Pitiful, man. We're in bad shape, economically. OA : What direction do you think we should take to a ssure more economic stability? CA: Man, we could talk about that all nig ht. Well, the first thing we've got to do is what Otis mentioned about getting some political power. We don't have any elected not one elected official, o ne. So we've got to file suit. You'd be surprised that the money that's that a politician can throw y our way, c ontracts. Poe's insurance company is twice as big as it was when he went in o ffice. You know that don't you? Why? Because he's the mayor of the city of Tampa and everybody wants to get in with the mayor. So he ain't got to be there. They talk ab out he's losin' money. Everybody knows better than that. Man, he made a hundred and some thousand dollars a year before he went into of fice. I think it was about $101,000 a year, s ee? But his insurance company is twice the size as it was when he went in o f fice. Because everybody is gonna run down there and get some kind of insurance from the mayor's company. See, that's why he took that job. And it just goes right down the line of what they can do for you, t hrow contracts your way, you know.

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21 HJ : That's rig ht. CA: Throw business your way. So if we have some po liticians down there doin' the s ame thing that would be a start. Otherwise, we ain't got no bank, no commercial banks and we ain't got no way to get n o money, so we've got to make a s tart. And I think that would be the best start in politics. File a damn suit. Go o n and get OA: For s ingle member districts. CA: Wait it out and get s ingle member districts where we can get two or three councilmen down there. We'd be on the mainstream, a couple of count y commissioners. They're talking about makin' it part time now, $25,000 a year. Part time And you can count the blacks o n your hand in this town that make $25,000 full time doin' anything. They talk about makin' it part time. So we can get a couple of co unty commissioners. They'd throw 'em business all kinds of ways. You saw t hat mowin' scandal. Big money, m an, you're talkin' about big money. I'm talkin' about doin' it legally, now I ain't talkin' about no "hanky panky." But we could throw blacks give blacks some jobs. The white folks don't count none about that money. I don't care what anybody says. I learned it the hard way because I was a militant in the fifties [19 50s ] and the sixties [19 60s ] till I realized I got in my fortie s and I realized, "Damn boy, you ain't got a quarter yourself. How can you go down there makin' demands and doin' this and doin' that. You know, and you ain't got nothin' yourself," see? So the past ten years I've been tryin' to accu mulate somthin' myself a nd get a little money and then, you know, gain a degree of some independence and other things. That's why a lot of people you take Moses White. A lot of people don't like him. But see he can do the things he does and talk big and talk trash because he's got some money. My daddy could do the same thing because they knew he had some money, and worth, because of his paper. They don't give a damn about me now. And I ain't foolin' myself they do. But they respect the paper. HJ : When I was at the South Florida (inaudible) Unkn own Person : Yeah? HJ : And that was when I was protesting and readin' all those newspapers. That's right. CA: See that day is gone. You've got to come in the back door now. That protest thing y ou saw what happened ou t here, the Penny Saver thing. They p ut a big suit to them, what a $3 mil $2 million dollar suit. OA : They did the same thing as this CA: See they've got you blocked.

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22 OA : Could you give us some idea in terms of how the paper has expanded now, in terms of circulation, places, your mach inery, equipment ? CA: We got new equipment Otis. We had to get new equipment in 197 4. We got $200,000 worth. I'll s how you. OA : Okay. CA: Before you leave. We got $200,000 worth of new equipment because we had to. The old press was printin' bad and p eople complainin' you couldn't read the print and that kind of thing so we had to go modern. And we did it just in the nick of time. It was costin' us a lot. And since an ad like those ads I show all you do is p aste 'em up and take a picture of it. Just put some chemicals over it and you've got your plate. Before you had to put it in hot metal and then somethin' would go wrong. Just an old process. We were one of the few black papers in the country that has a press of its own. Most of 'em, even the Chic ago Daily Defender the biggest black paper in the country it's a daily paper sends the paper out to be printed. They don't have their own press. So it's a big investment and most black papers can't make that investment because it costs too much. A press costs $100,000, a nd that's a small press. A four unit press costs you $100,000. I understand now the price is about $138,000. It's changed that much in four years. It went up to $38,000 more. Equipment wise, that answers your quest ion equipment wise. Cir culation wise, all black papers are strugglin' because black people are movin' out to the suburbs, m ovin' in all types of areas W here in the glory years of the fifties [19 50s ] and the sixties [19 60s ], all of us were congregated in specific areas. And as a result you had no problem gettin' to 'em. No problem to circulation and billing. But now you just have to use t he white papers been catchin' the sure hell. That's why you have the Tampa Neighbor and these other little papers springin' up givin' the daili es here Because white people are doin' the s am e thing, you know, more than they did back in the fifties [19 50s ] and the sixties [19 60s ] They're movin' out, away from us. You know, gettin' out in places suburbia, s ee? And circulations problems are problem s of all newspapers, particularly black newspapers. OA : I guess it's a problem of cost or logistics and all that kind of CA: All that combined. And we've run all kinds of little gimmicks and we've run contests and that kind of thing, but t hat's a subscr iption contest where a guy brings in twelve (inaudible) paper twice a week for a year. And we do quite well with that to keep our circulation stable, at least, you know. HJ : So how do you handle the area near USF [ University of South Florida ] ? CA: We hav e a couple of stands out there, but that's about it.

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23 HJ : Because the apartment complexes out there are filled with black people. CA: Yeah. This is what I was sayin', you know, it was just a Tape 1, side B ends; tape 2, side A begins CA: circulation f or a newspaper. Here we have people w e have five people who run the routes, but they work o n a regular basis J ust on Tuesdays and Fridays they run the paper routes. Then, of course, you have the news boys and the elderly people who make a subsistence on i t, you know, retired people. And this is the b ulk of our circulation output, s ee? That's the way we get it out. OA : Do you have a mailing process? CA: Yeah, we have an address o graph machine for subscriptions. And we've built that quite a bit since we g ot this new equipment. It used to be the girl would have to type every subscriber's name twice a week. And you can imagine how long and we just had one girl just doin' nothin' but that. But with that address o graph machine it's just automatic. You get you r changes, you just take one card out and type up another one and put it i n your address o graph machine and just go right on. Say your subscription's expired, just take it out. You know, we notify you in a day and if you don't write back in two weeks we just take it out, you know, and go on with the others, see. B ut we used to type every one of 'em b ecause I used to do it myself. And it's antiquated. That's an antiquated system. pause in recording CA: I think a lot of Mr. Harris and I think a lot of Mr. Kinsey. Mr. Kinsey is more or less what you call in newspaper lingo "a (inaudible) ." OA : I'd agree with that. C A : He walks the line and wavering a little over on the militant side and then a little t he next column will be on the conservative side. Where in, Rudolph was militant right down the line, you know, raisin' hell about somethin' all the time. Only he's right most of the time. With those two guys and myself, you know, bein' older and well, not too much olde r than Rudolph but he's you know, we were the s am e age and with the young lady I have here she's about thirty one comin' in and doing the work has a lot of good ideas. She's OA : Well, I just mentioned it 'cau CA: It's gonna be straight from now on like that. Whoever we decide on as a politica l candidate that'll be it. OA : Well, anytime, (inaudible) then I'd love to. That's fantastic. Okay, we didn't get a

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24 chance to talk about the staff and, in terms of your staff and what your breakdown is like, in terms of (inaudible) department and all tha t kind of thing. CA: I've got seventeen people here, which is too many. But a s ee, what we just talked about would tie in with circulation and the regular work. I could really cut I had a newspaper broker to come in here to appraise this business for m y daddy's estate about six months ago and he looked around and said, "I've never seen this many people workin' on a paper this size." And he said, "You've got too many people." I said, "We l l, look, He went through department I mean, this guy appraised th e Coppley Newspapers which is about forty or fifty papers out in California so he's one of the best in the country. But I can't I told him I should cut four people. Get down to thirty percent of the income. That's the way h e put it. And I'm up to about th irty five to thirty six percent of the income in labor costs. But, see I said, "You've been dealin' with white papers an d black papers, but I've got four people or five people runnin' paper routes that work all du ri n' the week regularly at a job and then on Tuesdays and Fridays they run the paper routes for me I can't cut 'em. T hat's number one, because I would have to hire somebod y to run these routes, separate," s ee? I can't affo rd a full time circulation man. I tried that in the early seventies [1970s] and that didn't work out. But, then I got all my I'd say out of the seventeen people fourteen of 'em been here fifteen years or more. See? I don't have much turnover here. This lady out front, this dark ski nned lady, been here twenty years. The o ther lady been here nineteen years t he other lady up front. You can't cut people like you know, unless you facin' collapse. You know, unless you've just got to, you know just cut to stay alive. I've pondered this thing for m any hours, but those two ladies n ow this lady handles like on Wednesdays I cut back to four week, everybody but six people. You've got to pay minimum wage and you've got pay reporters. When you pay a reporter, a girl like I've got now, that I've trained, been here ten years and she's be en through the whole operation from clerk to copyographic setter to everything you can think of, you've go t to pay her $180 $190 a week b ecause if you lose her you're hurtin'. OA : That's right. CA: See? Where o n a white paper, you know, they see guy s com in' in there applyin' for j obs everyday, you know, graduate journalists, see most of whom aren't worth a da m n, incidently. OA : That's true. CA: So, when you get a girl like this, can type about 100 words a minute turn out a story as quickly as anybody y ou want to see and knows she's in there settin' type now because I'm on a four day week on Wednesday. See, all but five people are off today. See what I'm saying? OA : Yeah.

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25 CA: She's in there settin' now, tomorrow she becomes a reporter. Do you see what I'm saying? OA : Oh, I see. Yeah. CA: So you can't cut somebody OA : Where is she from? A black paper, it's a different animal. CA: She's from M acon, Georgia. She's been here ten years. And she went two years at Talladega and met this Tampa boy and th ey got married and she never went back to school. But she's a hell of a gi rl. She took Martha's place in you know, when Martha died. OA : Do you have something you can give us where all of the staff can you breakdown o n some of them? CA: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. T his girl here, she gets part paid for the dark skinned girl gets part paid from the Lodge because she knows as much about the Lodge as I do. Do you see what I'm saying ? B ecause she was with the old man [his father] The old man hired her ye ar s ago. So I got to keep her, s ee? Because all these programs I got to get out in the next month, you know, she knows what to do and how to do it, you know, better than I do. Do you see what I'm saying? About gettin' the choirs, the preachers, the prizes up the money that we give to the guys who've worked hard during the year and all t hat, the plaques and all that, s ee? So she gets a salary from here an d a salary from out there, part time salary from out there. This other lady sets type and handles the f ront office. Miss Crutchfield is strictly society. She goes home half a day. I've got to pay her full tim e because she's old now, about sixty, and been here since fifty seven [19 57 ]. T hat's twenty one years. And you just have to make her e very Tuesday at t welve o'clock she'll go on right out the door. Every Friday at twelve o'clock she goes right out the door. Her work is complete. HJ: Mr. Andre ws, do you think that this is well, I guess it couldn't be a fault or in black businesses but I've noticed if thi s had happened to a white man and someone had come in and appraised him and he had said, "Well, you know, you need to get rid of so and so and so or else, you kn ow," or "This would give you an increase in productivity, a nd not productivity, as far as inco me is concerned, right? they would have probably let them go regardless of how many years they've been there. But I've noticed that black people have this CA: Affinity for their own. OA : Right. Right. And do you think this i s good for business or bad or h ow do you see it?

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26 HJ : You said he's still pondering that. CA: Well, yeah, I've been pondering that. I would say l et me give you an answer like this. If this was my only business I'd probably cut six people b ecause all it means is w hen you take withhol ding taxes out I was takin' with all this full time staff, before I cut back to four, I was takin' $2,000 the, government requires you to send their money, withholding taxes, when it gets up to business this size, $2,000. When it gets up to $2,000. That wa s happenin' to me every three weeks. I had to send the government $2,000 withholding taxes, which was killing me. Since I cut back to four days it's every five weeks. So I can live with that. Make my little salary, you see, and keep my people that have b een here and count o n this busine ss for a livin'. I don't count o n it because I've got my own personal property that brings me in $15,000 a year. I've got a big salary out at the Lodge, you know. So I'm way up in the upper 10 percent of income people in th e whole country white and black because of side businesses. You see what I'm saying? It's about to kill me because I don't take any vacations I just go the year around. You hav e to, you know. But I enjoy it. A nd as long as I can keep my people who've bee n with me a long time without goin' under I'm gonna do it. OA : I see. CA: You see what I'm saying? The paper is not makin' t he corporation, let me say that. I'm gettin' a salary and we re breakin' even. The corporation is not making any money. But, you know, drop below that line where we start losin' money, yeah, I'll do it then, s ee? But my certified public account ant says that h e gives me hell too. Just like h e asks the same question, see. He says the corporation is not making what it should b e making you know. But I say, "W ell, as long as I can pay the government and pay my people that have been here all these years and keep 'em goin' And I talk to all of 'em just like I'm tellin' them the sure thing, that one day it may come, but I'm gonna try to make it you know, without lettin' my fifteen to twenty year people because you can't find people that can do this work, man, you'd be surprised. OA : That's right. I believe it. CA: I tried to y ou know, we've got a white we've got a white pressma n. OA : I believe that? CA: Now you would think that a guy that's been back there twenty some years helpin' that white man run a press and then when we put the new press in a factory man came in and stayed here a month that he would learn how to run that press. T he guy that's been back there, my top man back there, "I got it. I know how to run it. You can let 'em go. Let 'em go." I'm payin' those guys a year two hours a day I pay 'em $40. Two of 'em, a man and his eighty year ol d father in law. So I'm out $80 for two hours wor k twice

PAGE 28

27 a week. That's a $160. I say, man, I don't mind. I'd give you $100 of that money, you know, a week, extra if you'd just run the press, l earn how to run it. He went over to Plant City two weeks after the factory man was here. When he got back he said, "Turn 'em loose." I said, I told 'em, man, I was so glad to get rid of those "crackers". Because they've been here before I got here, twenty some years. Just do yeah Waste up a lot of paper. They don't give a damn, you know. Man, we wer e four o'clock tryin' to get out of here We was supposed to be out at twelve The man didn't know. And I had to eat "crow" and call 'em back. And he told me, you know, the "crackers", when he came back, "You can't teach no old man like that how to run no press. You h av e to get you a young boy." And all that kind of his talkin' bigger then, you know. But I had to eat "crow" to get 'em back to get the paper out. So it shows ya T he point is that nobody's interested in the jobs that really pay money like ru nnin' the press, plumbin' a plumber makes $18 an hour, electrician $20 an hour and different things you know. W e all went to college to get a degree to teach and, you know, be a lawyer and a doctor and most of us can't be lawyers or doctors so we in som OA : Teaching. CA: teaching and little penny ante jobs when the trend now is to get you a trade and be proficient at it and make yourself some money. So it's the same with this pr that girl. Now, any girl that can type real well can learn how to run that copyographic machine. But you get these young people in here that want to "bull skate", clamor and carry on so I stay with my older people, you know, and runnin' those machines. And pastin' up is nothin', but it's hard to get peopl e to do that. You know, pastin' that's al l that this paper is. And I'll s how you when we go around here. Just pastin' a dag gone headline. You know, makin' sure it's level, like that. Puttin' this in is nothin'. See? And it's a good payin' job. But blacks aren't in it. They jus t aren't in it. And so if you talk about lettin' somebody go it's got to be a disaster facin' you in this business, you know. Because of the trade qualities that are involved. You know, like runnin' the press, runnin' the copyographic machine, somebody tha t knows how to write a decent story. And most of us comin' out of college now can't write a decent line. OA : Right. CA: See. And you get a girl like I got there, you know, I've got to pay her to keep her because she's goin' somewhere else, y ou know. OA : Yeah, that's true. They'll be after her. CA: They'll be after her. I know, they're after her now. OA : They'll be after her.

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28 CA: Because she's a good writer. She com es to work everyday, you know, on time, a nd you just don't find people like that now. I haven't. I've bee n gettin' people from Campbell o n almost a weekly basis and a n ow, Miss Crutchfield is a person that's been here twenty some years, has got all the contacts in all the clubs, the social clubs, the fraternities, e verything. And when she's o n vacation, man, we're scufflin' like mad just to get all that stuff together, you know, and this one do in' somethin' or I'm doin' it, y ou know. Because they call Miss Crutchf ield, see, somebody been here twenty one years. OA : Yeah. HJ : We probably need to talk to her about organizations and stuff, interview her. Because we need to get a history of organizations. OA : There's some other lady that he mentioned too. Oh, did you have you Grace (inaudible) finished? (inaudible) HJ : Oh, yeah. SS: Your pape r only circulate through Hillsborough C ounty? CA: No. Tuesday's paper goes statewide. OA : Yeah. SS : Oh, does it? CA: You see tha t's a funny thing, I'm gonna tel l you a little secret. When I first got back with all this rote le arning and knew everythin g, I said, "W hy do you I told my dad, "Why do you run all these da m n churches? It's not that I don't believe in God, but I just don't believe in all these churches." OA : That's right. CA: Why you runnin' criminal news? Why you run this? Why you run t ha t?" The man just laughed at me. I said, "I'm gonna take all that stuff out and make 'em pay for it." "Get out my office son." "What you mean get out the office?" "I don't even want to hear that nonsense." But it was a learnin' process. That's what I'm tryin' to sa y. You take your churches out, y ou take your the little bit of I've cut down o n it a lot. You take your criminal news out. I try to run a strong social column with Miss Crutchfield and the stories I get from you and other people and just make it a good cross section of all kinds of n ews. Because when you s tart foolin' with changin' your news style, you know, it's just like the Daily News the biggest circulated newspaper in the country t he New York Daily News T heir format has been the s ame for ever since I can remember., s ee? They run a cross section of all that stuff. And no

PAGE 30

29 advertis ing, because the circulation is about three million, see. So they survive o n nothin' but circulation. The National Enquirer the s am e way. All that junk. People call it "junk ," s ee? But they start foolin' with that format and man you're in trouble. And o n Fridays now, be nothin' but maybe three or four pages of church ads. It's piled up out there now o n the desk. You start foolin' with out, you get them church peo ple against you, you're dead. OA : I can believe that. CA: And I wanted to charge it. Most newspapers charge for your church to run a little you know them little ads about Sunday School nine o'clock, morning service 11:00, evening s ervice Shoot, man, I've made some feelers and, man, them people holler and say well, just forget it Rev erend You know, you can just forget it. Because all that stuff should be paid for. But the format has been like that when I got here and it's got to stay and you got to f eed it like that. And now, to get back to your question; Tuesday's paper goes all over the st ate. And the reason is all the L odge people handle it in all the various communities of the state. See, it goes back to what I told you earlier when they couldn' t get their news in the Tampa Bulletin back in the forties [1940s] So the old man said, "W ell, we ll start u s a paper. I'll start a paper. W e ll get our news in that paper. We were in the building process of building up this big 10,000 membership then, s ee? And so they started sellin' the paper because of that back before I even got here. And then we still had that circulation in almost every little nook and corner of Florida where there's a L odge. OA : That's true because I knew somebody takin' it way do wn in Daytona. HJ: Yeah, (inaudible) it comes to Tallahassee. CA: Friday's paper OA : The Florida Sentinel ? HJ : Yeah. CA: Yeah, Tallahassee. Friday's paper is a three county area paper, more or less. OA : Do you think that you expand your county d o yo u think that it would eventually go statewide for both of 'em? Or just y ou gonna keep it at the three counties? CA: No. What I'm gonna try to concentrate w hat I've bee n tryin' to concentrate on, say the past seven years is gettin' saturation in Hillsboro ugh County, y ou know, the populous areas of central city. That's where your strength lies. It goes back to what you asked about earlier. I t's a trick of the trade. See, middle class people don't read this paper. If we had to depend o n middle class people w e would've closed the doors a long time ago.

PAGE 31

30 OA : That's true. CA: I'm not sayin' all middle class people, I'm sayin' the majority of 'em don 't. So you have to concentrate o n the people in the projects and your w hat you call your under class people. They' re the people that support everything though, your nickel and dime stores, the insurance companies and everything. See, when I s ee b ecause I've got a master's degree and you've got you all got degrees y ou know, I read United States News and World Report Fortune m agazine and Time and Newsweek and all the and New York Times and the Washington Post which are the best papers in the country dailies St. Pete Times and the Tribune and all that, you know. Y ou ain't got time for the little Florida Sentinel So w e concentrate o n gettin' that clientele in the projects and your under class people. They're the people that support you. The nucleus of your support. When you lose them you're dead because there ain't enough middle class people to support newspap er or any thing that counts on numbers, s ee? You k now, you get a lot of criticism, "Oh, man, why do you put something like in there?" Why w e upgrade the society columns. We upgrade the feature stories. We upgrade your deaths and everything but that little column ove r there o n two and three we have to put that in too. Because if there was any way you could get it out, I would have figured out a way to get it out. You know, but if you do that you're gonna lose that under class person, s ee? That's what they want to rea d about. Because we're talkin' about fifth to eigh th grade mentalities. HJ: Okay. A nd with knowing that it's the lower class people that get your subscription that CA: Not subscriptions now. OA : Okay. Well do CA: The middle class people, you know, t hey're the ones that can afford $12.50 pay in advance, so to speak, for your subscription. OA : Okay, you know, your master things is with the lower income people, right, your project areas and stuff like that. Okay, have you h as the Sentinel done anything within a certain area of the projects, like a special event, maybe, or a picnic for the children or just stuff like that? CA: We gave Christmas bicycles and that kind of thing with those kids over at Central Park, n ot this past summer I mean, not this p ast Christmas but the Christmas before last. Then Ms. Reeve had a lot to say about it. So it looked like I had to do it, t hat kind of thing And then we didn't. So I had 'em over to my house to a pool party. We had about forty boys over there from Cent ra l Park, w ent to a pool party. Served 'em hot dogs and let 'em swim, y ou know, play

PAGE 32

31 records and that kind of b ut it got discouragin' as hell so you know, with all this flack so b ut we I'm not gonna give up. You know, I'm gonna have another one this summer. This summer and try to a nd we've gotten to some of those boys over there because they were headin' in the wrong direction. You know, these kids thirteen fourteen HJ : That's where you live isn't B ? CA: p oppin' drugs and not goin' to school. There's one of 'em over there that's a leader, a natural born leader, a little old guy, man, t he smartest one of 'em, you know. He has a phobia about white kids, you know. (laugh s ) Hell, they put him out of school every week. HJ : (inaudible) like that, right. CA : R ufus Lewis came over tellin' you know, the cop? H e works over at their school, the junior high, as an officer over there. And he said, I just don't understand, you know, we had him in the office over there. We have a t his little guy, man, you kno w, he don 't weigh eighty pounds, man. Man, I hit him right there and he went down and then I pushed the I put the Central Park stomp on him." You know, he's talkin' about a white kid. Every week they're puttin' him out school, but i t's a wonder they haven't suspend ed him. But, Rufus says the boy's a br illiant boy, mental, you know. B ut he just hates white people, y ou know? HJ : There's a lot of 'em. There's a lot of them the same way. CA: But all those kids follow him. You know. And he's got maybe fifteen little bo ys that follow him a nd believe everything he says, a natural leader, man. All we've got to do is just channel him in the right direction and he'd be one of our upcomin' young young because he's about fifteen years old now you know. He looks like he's ten but he's fifteen years old. But, we aren't gonna give up on those kids, man, because you'd be surprised at how smart some of 'em are and the aptitude that they have, you know, for learning. B ut you've just got to channel 'em right. You know, they don't h ave any fathe r s most of 'em. They don't have any kind of home life and you've just got to try to We're gonna start a golf program too. A nd I'm gonna donate, personally, a couple of sets of clubs. And a we're gon na get, maybe, fifteen of 'em out there, or twenty as many as want to go, you know, our club. And we're gonna o f course, we've got to go beg. Those golf clubs are expensive. You know, we're talkin' about $250 to $300 for a set, see? But I can get some from Winn Dixie and Charlie Lykes and crac kers like that to donate clubs to help those kids. Because that's a good clean sport. And they've got no black kids a re in anywhere in the country, k nowin' we could do it. None of 'em. White boys are makin' all that money out there on the golf tour and the y started when they were seven, eight, nine years old, like [Jack] Nicklaus and all those boys. But we're into basketball, baseball and football. HJ : That's right.

PAGE 33

32 CA: We can get all messed up and all hurt up OA : We're accustomed to tennis. CA: but in golf, there's big money in it and blacks just aren't in it yet, s ee? OA Not only that, but we've got a lot of decisions to make. CA: It's a good concentration game. We're gonna get some of those kids out there this summer. We gave a tournament last we ekend a nd made, maybe, $1100 or $1200. S o we're gonna take those funds and put into clubs for those kids, golf clubs. I guess we have to get cars to take them out there, you know. Summers, you know, we get the longer days where they can ge t classes, you k now, in group get the pros out there to teach 'em. And once a kid gets interested in that, boy, that's he can go. Our tournament this weekend, all the white boys won the top prizes. A boy from the University o f South Florida, Joe Hard, nineteen years old shot that course in one under par. And that's a tough course. My brother was in there, and my brother's probably the best black amateur in the city, and he was say yeah, man, a fanatic. Scufflin' with that white boy, hell, he's forty seven years old, you know, you lo se it just like in any other athletics. You know, you l ose it when you get a certain age. Man, he say, "Man, them boys puttin' some shots on me." Just hung in there. He finishe d 5th. But the top prizes were four places. So he finished 5th yo u see? Them four white boys, picture s will be in the paper Friday, won the top prizes, a nd all of 'em young. One boy from M acDill look like he was about twenty But they've been playin' golf since they nine, ten years old, s ee? And that ain't right. We oug ht to have some black boys in there takin' those prizes. OA : Well, can you think of anything that we've missed in terms of the paper? We've talked about the staff, circulation, history, to some extent. Can anybody think of anything else? HJ : Well, I wan t to know why the price on the paper's so low. CA: Well, let me tell you abou t that now. We started out at ten cents in the 1950s. To make a long story short, I'm scared to raise the price another nickel. See, what we do now, we get twelve cents for each paper and the agent gets eight cen ts, see? When we went up from fifteen to twenty, we lost 3,000 circulation. They resent price increases. Black people resent flat price increases of any kind in the newspaper busine ss. We had to raise our advertis ing rates but 98 percent of our adverti s ing comes from white folk. And very few of them kick. But when talk about the buying public out t here, that lower class or under class or under privileged person, you raise it another nickel you ma y lose a couple thousand mo re, s ee. Now that would solve my problems over night. See, if I raised it to twenty five cents I'd

PAGE 34

33 get fifteen and give the boys ten see, for each paper sold. No problem. Because you're talkin' about 27,000 there's two no, three that's $810 extra per ed ition. So you're talkin' about two times that. T hat's $1,620 extra money I'd take in just from circulation alone in a week. That'd solve all my problems. And I've thought about that too. And that's a hell of a question h e asked. We should be gettin' twent y five cents They're gettin' twenty five cents in Miami and they're gettin' it everywhere else. But Tampa is a funny town. OA : It is a funny town. CA: It's a hell of a town. HJ : It's somethin' else. CA: Man, you'd be surprised. Like, downtown newsstan d, they sell two hundred papers a issue. When we raised that price from fifteen to twenty cents they went down to 115. That's the way it was droppin' off everywhere. "Hey, we ain't gonna make those 'niggers' rich." Hey, so and so and so OA : Yeah, they r un that. CA: So a nd we're talkin' about six or seven years ago that we raised the price. We should have raised y ou should raise your price The ways things are goin' now, you know, the Tribune raises it about every four or five years. We should raise it e very three or four years too, s ee? But you can't do it. You have to try to get your revenu e. We raised our rates, maybe fifty cents what they call fifty cents an inch and no problem, man. In fact, the national people our national representatives there's a group of national advertisers in New York t hey're based in New York and Chicago say, "H ell man, your national rate is too low. Get it up," you know. We can get it, y ou know. This came from Cutler's office. We can get it, man, from the big national adve rt isers. So we raised the rate fifty cents an inch. You're talkin' about that's a big hike. And no problem, man. Those checks come in here every month from the national advert isers, man, I be just smilin', y ou know, because there's no problem. But you talk a bout raisin' your end of interview


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