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Daniels, John C.
h [electronic resource] /
interviewed by Otis R. Anthony and members of the Black History Research Project of Tampa.
Tampa, Fla. :
University of South Florida Tampa Library,
1 sound file (62 min.) :
digital, MPEG4 file +
e 1 transcript (digital, PDF file)
Otis R. Anthony African Americans in Florida oral history project
Other interviewers for the Black History Research Project of Tampa were Fred Beaton, Joyce Dyer, Herbert Jones, and Shirley Smith.
Interview conducted July 13, 1978.
John Daniels, former Equal Employment Opportunity officer for the City of Tampa, discusses affirmative action and the educational and employment options available to African Americans.
Daniels, John C.
Affirmative action programs
Anthony, Otis R.
Black History Research Project of Tampa.
University of South Florida Libraries.
Florida Studies Center.
Oral History Program.
University of South Florida.
y USF ONLINE ACCESS
COPYRIGHT NOTICE This Oral History is copyrighted by the University of South Florida Libraries Oral History Program on behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of South Florida. Copyright, 2009, University of South Florida. All rights, reserved This oral history may be used for research, instruction, and private study under the provisions of the Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of the United States Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section 107), which allows limited use of copyrig hted materials under certain conditions. Fair Use limits the amount of material that may be used. For all other permissions and requests, contact the UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA LIBRARIES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at the University of South Florida, 4202 E. Fo wler Avenue, LIB 122, Tampa, FL 33620.
1 Otis R. Anthony African Americans in Florida Oral History Project Oral History Program Florida Studies Center University of South Florida, Tampa Library Digital Object Identifier: A31 000 77 Interviewee: John Daniels (JD) Interviewer: Otis Anthony (OA ) Herbert Jones (HJ), Fred Beaton (FB) Interview date: July 13, 1978 Interview location: Tampa, Florida Transcribed by: Unknown Transcription date: Unknown Interview changes by: Mary Beth Isaacson Interview changes date: December 1, 2008 Final Edit b y: Maria Kreiser Final Edit date: February 17, 2009 [Transcriber's Note: Interview starts in mid sentence.] John Daniels : left St. Petersburg, I think at the age of four and moved to Tampa. And at that particular time my mother went to Philadelphia and I remain ed with my grandparents here in Tampa. Moved into a community where my grandmother lives now on Banza Street, d own the street from (inaudible) I think you're familiar with the area. And when we moved in that community I think it was back in 1942, forty three  or forty four [19 44 ] it was basically a Latin community. Otis Anthony: Yeah. JD: I think it was only about when we moved there was only about two, maybe four, families in that entire street. But it gradually changed, you know ; the Latins moved out and they went some place I don't know specifically where they went. I guess since they became more affluent and assimilated into the Anglo community of Tampa, t hey dispersed and assimilated into their other community. I was raised b y my grandparents who were migratory workers T his went on from the time that I was in elementary school all the way through eleventh grade and high school. OA: Were they like seasonal workers that was traveling around? JD: They were seasonal workers. OA: Did they travel around? JD: We worked the E ast C oast. We worked South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, New Jersey, all the way up into upstate New York, picking apples and working for Birds Eye, picking corn and that kind of stu ff. And that happe ned each year. I was put in school
2 late and taken out of school early f rom first grade all the way through elevent h grade. Eventually, I graduated. W h en I graduated from high school that was in fifty six [19 56 ] I had some weird ideas. I wanted to go to Philadelphia and become a tenant landlord I wanted to buy a big apartment building (laughs) and u h OA: (laughs) What high school did you graduate from? JD: Middleton [High School] in fifty six [19 56 ] So I went to Philadelphia and I stayed in Philadel phia for six months. I got a job at a belt factory. But I couldn't take the life in Philadelphia because people were very impersonal in that community, so I returned after six months. And when I got back here my close friends who I had graduate d with had gone off to school and those ones that w ere coming out in fifty seven [19 57 ] were going off to school. So I said "W ell damn, I ain't got nothing to do. And so I wrote my mother and said I want go to school. And she said I ain't got no money, I don 't know what we are going to do, b ut we 're going to do the best we can ," and I was sent to school. And my mother sold Avon [cosmetics] to send me to school. I went to school off of Avon money. Herbert Jones : Where did you go? JD: A&M [ Florida Agricultura l & Mechanical University] M ajored in industrial education came out in January of sixty two [19 62 ], a nd didn't find a job immediately. I don't know how long I stayed out of work, but I didn't go to work immediately, because I worked about six months at D avis Island Yacht and Count r y Club. And interesting ly enough, I think school teachers were only making about $350 a month and working at the yacht club I was making anywhere from $150 to $200 a week. But still, you know, I wanted to get into the professio n. And I wasn't able to go into industrial education which was my major. I started off working at Booker Washington [Middle School] as a math teacher in the middle of t he year. I taught math I think and civic history for approximately two or three ye ars A fter that, I went into work experience, started working as a work experience coordinator. And the purpose of this was to try and find jobs for po tential junior high school drop outs who were having economic problems in hope that this would keep them i n school. I think last year I worked as a work experience coordinator, and I also worked as a juvenile counselor with the juvenile domestic relation s courts. And I was specifically concerned with those individuals who were placed at Booker Wash ington, prov iding monitoring an d guidance for those individuals who were on probation. I think in sixty seven [19 67 ] in February of sixty seven [19 67 ] Jim Hammond had convinced the powers that be that his staff needed enlarging I think the only major project they had at that time was Head Start [education program] And he was having a whole lot of problems in Head Start because the school system was in the process of taking over Head Start. And he didn't want that ; he wanted Head Start to remain an entity within itself under the [county] c ommission.
3 OA: Okay, he was working in what capacity? JD: At that time, Hammond went with Community Relations in sixty four ; that's when they established the Office of Community Relations. OA: Okay. JD: And one of the first major projects that was implemented by the Office of Community Relations was Head Start, which was a multimillion dollar program that was being coordinated by Jim Hammond. He was controlling all the purse strings, calling the shots in term of what wa s happening with the University of South Florida, the school system and seve ral other major entities in the community. And there was a whole lot of conflict, because they want ed to do things one way and Hammond wanted to do things another way. And a who le lot of controversy developed because of the Head Start Program, but in sixty seven [19 67 ] the City of Tampa decided to expand the Office of Community Relations A t that time I think he was authorized I don't know ; about four additional staff individual s. And I think the individuals who were identified at that particular time was Goosby [Jones] and myself. And so he convinced me to leave the school system under the auspices that I was going to receive a salary of $9,500 a year. Well I resigned, and a fter I resigned and started to work with the Office of Community Relations I found out that everything had not been cleared ; even the positions hadn't been cleared. And so we were out there in limbo for almost a month. And eventually, I think the [Tampa] c ity council approved the budget. W hen they approved the budget the salary was $7,500, which was $2,000 less than I left the school system for. So actually I was leaving the school system because of the money, but after I got in there, the money was the same. I started working there as a job developer and during that time jobs were very difficult to come by. Because what we were doing we were trying to break into nontraditional occupations for black folks. And we've had relatively a pretty good success with General Telephone Company. You can stop at any time. OA: You were there in sixty seven [19 67 ] ? JD: Went there in February Goosby and I went there in February sixty seven [ 196 7 ] OA: So you were there during the time of the riots in Tampa ? JD: Y eah I will lead up to that. We had been very successful working with General Telephone Company, because when we had conducted several workshops for General
4 Telephone. As a result of those workshops we had gotten blacks into the operational phase of Gener al Telephone. Prior to the workshops, you know, they were in service kind s of occupations elevator operators, maids and janitors. Didn't have any operators, didn't have any installers, what have you. But as a result of the program, the training program tha t we conducted, they phased them in. I think we must have had over a period of a year, we must have phased in anywhere from seventy five to one hundred blacks in General Telephone in the operational areas. OA: T his was just done in it was just a good fait h effort on their part? JD: Well OA: Do y'all have any kind of reports from that time? JD: No, it was done through negotiation by Hammond with Fred Leary. OA: Oh, okay. JD: At that time Fred Leary was president of General Telephone. And what they w ere telling us they were telling us tha t "W e can't identify any blacks The blacks that they were identifying couldn't pass th e examination. So, they did a combination of things I think they sent them in there and let them work during the day, and brough t them back in the evening s into an academic kind of environment a nd provided whatever training was necessary for the area that they were going into. Going from there I think we started doing some workshop s with the Merchants Association, w orking with a guy I think was Co l by Armstrong. OA: Was all of this new? Was it like a new concept (inaudible) in terms of ? JD: Well, what we were doing all this happened before t he war of poverty began and money began coming in from the federal government. And we w ere trying to deal with all those social ills that existed in the community. W e were dealing with police and community relations, we were dealing with we were very heavy into that. Remind me to tell you about what happen ed in that area T hat caused well b ack up. I want to tell you about the employment, then we ll get into that. But we were doing all kinds of workshops getting individuals employment, you know. We were talking to the president of Maas Brothers [Department Store] ; we got the first blacks i nto Maas Brothers as salespersons, the first blacks into O. Fal k's [Department Store]. W e did the bottling companies, we did the grocer y stores. Because of our involvement we moved blacks into nontraditional occupations in a variety of business es and indu stries throughout Hillsborough County. But only as a token kind of thing, you know ; we just got them in the door O ne or two and that was it. And then a part of my responsibility as a job developer was to continue to try and develop jobs in order to phase other blacks into the same kinds of nontraditional occupations. But it became very
5 difficult once you got that one or two in. Now it changed I think the riots must have occurred something like June twelf th  or June thirteen th , or what hav e you. I believe it was on a Sunday, because what happened, I had gone to Philadelphia to take a look at OIC [Opportunities of Industrialization Center] Rev erend [Leon] Sullivan's OIC program 1 b ecause we were trying to get into the same kind of thing, trai ning for employment and that kind of stuff. W hen I came back, I think I was at Buddy's Bar on Seven t h Avenue, must have been about six or seven in the afternoon, and I decided to go over to the Zanzibar on Main S treet. And when I went down Henderson [Avenu e] I was going to cut through (laughs) Central [Avenue] and check it out and go on over and around. Well, when I got there, cops were blocking Central right there at Henderson; you couldn't go down. And I had no idea what was going on. And I went to Wes t Tampa, and during that time I was in West Tampa, I stopped by Goosby's house and asked Pa t where was Goosby. He said, "W ell Goosby is down on Central A riot has started. And so I went back into Central Avenue area ; it was about dusk dawn then. T hey ha d a few police in the fringe area s but nobody was inside. So that time we had cards you know, Community Relations R epresentative or what have you. And I showed the cop the card and I went in and met Goosby and Gerald. And guys were just breaking out wi ndows, looting stores W hat we were telling them, you know, take it all not to take it take it and don't come back, because the people are coming. But those people didn't organize themselves unti l about must have been about ten or eleven o'clock before the y could organize well enough to come into the area. That whole time was just you know, sa t there People did what they want to do. OA: That's interesting I never heard that before. JD: A fter they organized and came in, and forced everybody off of Cent ral back into the [housing] projects. They couldn't go into the project because they were scared. But we had to act as the liaison, and so we walked that project up and down, talking to people, trying to quiet people down and what have you. And that went o n until about four o'clock that morning About four o'clock that morning, [Claude] Kirk came in. Kirk was the governor at that time I think [Nick] Nuccio was the mayor. Kirk Nuccio, [Sheriff Malcolm] Beard and I can't think who was the police chief at that particular time 2 met right there on the corner of Central and Cass [Street] What was that little shoe store on the corner there? OA: Central Central JD: Right there on the cor ner, as you go into Central, that was a little shoe store. Well, w e had Nuccio sitting out there on a chair right there on that corner. Well when Kirk came 1 Philadelphia Opportunities Industrialization Center, Inc. 2 J.P. Mullins.
6 in, Kirk turn ed everything, took everything from under the auspices from the police department and made Beard the man. And at that particular time, Jim Hammond Nick Nuccio, Beard, and Kirk, they went into a meeting to find out what they had to do in order to quell the situation. I don't know what happen ed ; some kind of way we got word they wanted to meet with all of the individuals who were basically the instigator s. W e had identified those individuals a nd so our assignment was to pick those guys up and have those guys in our office the next morning at eight o'clock. Well, I picked the cats up like a t five thirty or six o'clock in the m orning, rode them around unti l eight o'clock OA: (laughs) JD: and carried them to the office. Well, everybody was excited, you know, because they still wanted to do their thing They were very angry. Paul Anti nori must have came in about I don't know, maybe about eleven o'clock OA: He was in He was the state attorney. JD: H e was the s tate a ttorney at that time. He came in and gave justifiable homicide. And everybody became very angry again, but didn't anybody leave and we kept them there. And so eventual ly they came up with the White H at concept. OA: Yeah, tell me how that developed. JD: Well, that develop ed in a series of meetin gs that were taking place from four o'cloc k that morning up until about ten o'clock the next day. I really don't know specifically, but sometime by noon the next day the idea had materialized. OA: Was that a brainchild of Mr. Hammond? JD: I don't know ; there s a whole lot of controversy around that. Some people say it was [Bob] Gilder 's idea, some people say it was Dr. [James O.] Brookins' idea I never knew, because I wasn't in on the meetings because I was in the street. OA: Yeah, I see. JD: And so Hammond say it was his idea, Brookins say it was his idea, Bob say it was his idea, so whose idea it really was I can't say. But anyway, everything was organized in our office ; we were located on Franklin Street at that time. And eventually we said we were going to do the White H at patrol and all the organization was put together right there in the conference room We identified the lieutenants and t hey decided what black officer they wanted to work with in the community and we section ed them off into districts and went out.
7 OA: That was interesting how I couldn't imagin e how they got them to agree to tha t, you know. I always wondered how they got them organized and h ow they got them to agree to it, and that type of thing. JD: That was done through a long process of discussion, you know, as of what we going to do in order to save our community. OA: So the purpose JD: And plus, I think there was another concession, is that they [law enforcement] would not come into that community you know. OA: Okay, that's the kind of thing we were talking about. JD: They had to agree to pull them off the street and not to send them into that community. Becaus e I think they had the National Guard here by that time, but they never did come out and this was part of the agreement. If you could be successful in maintaining your community, we will not send the law enforcement officer s in t here. And this is what hap pened: as a result of these individuals going back to the community, over the next two days everything was calm It just quieted down from there. And so the next thing was putt ing these guys on the payroll. Oh, t hat was really a trip. But Hammond was Ham mond, you know, is a very persuasive individual. OA: I believe that. JD: He is a very, very, persuasive individual, and he worked day and night, you know, just twisting people arms and threatening them : i f you don't do it, this is what's going to happen And those individual s immediately went on payroll; we picked up four or five of them and put them on payroll. T hey were suppose d to be community workers ; I think [that] was their title. T hey were supposed to go out into the community and identify the ill s and identify the concern s of the commu nity, a nd bring those concerns back to our office W e would categorize them and send them into the administration and see what could be done about it. OA: Do you remember any of the people that were hired? JD: Yea h Norris Morrow Fred Beaton : Robert Stoney? JD: Stoney I don't think he was hired at that particular time. It was Morro w, Arthur Roby, Carl Brazelton OA: [Johnny Lee] Carter, too.
8 JD: Yeah, Carter, and a couple of other individuals. FB: Who's Carte r? OA: Uh he's (inaudible). JD: Yeah. L ived over in the West Tampa area. And those guys worked for us for well they could have probably been working for us now but OA: (laughs) JD: T hat's what the people predicted, you know ; t hat's what happen ed. T he first thing happen ed, that Roby killed a dude 3 and after Roby killed somebody, I think Norris was picked up 4 But Norris always worked his self out. And I think everybody got in trouble except Carl Brazelton and Carter, and eventually it was just too m uch heat on us to keep them. We just had to cut the entire program out. We'll go back to the police thing, you know okay. We were heavy in to police and community relations We were monitoring their activities ; we were calling press conferences and every thing. And eventually it got well, Nuccio moved out and [Dick] Greco came in. And Greco did not like the fact that we were a city department and we were constantly criticizing the police department. And we had a series of confrontations, and as a result of those confrontations that we were having with the police department, I think i t' s basically one of the reasons they dissolved the c ommission as a department of city government. Very interesting. FB : I never knew of this result. JD: And what happen ed at that particular time, the mayor didn't have primary control over the c ommission, because the commission was con trolled by a board a board of commissioners who were appointed by the administration. And our staff reported directly to the board. Now the boa rd was a very influential board. You had Colby Armstrong who was president of the Me rchants Association. A t one time we had the guy who owned Port Sutton what's his name? The guy walks with a cane; he's a philanthropist H e was on the board. Old dude now who's chairman of the board of one of those banks downtown; he's a prominent lawyer OA: Cody Fowler. JD: Cody Fowler You had Andrews, C. Blythe [Senior] on there Perry Harvey [Senior] on there. So the board was very influential A nything the board sanctioned, the board was too 3 Roby was convicted of second degree murder in the 1968 shooting of Frank Cutler. 4 Morrow was ar rested and charged with assault with intent to murder and armed robbery. Editor was unable to confirm whether the case was ever tried. This incident actually took place before Cutler's death.
9 heavy for the administration to deal with. And some members on the board were concerned about our activities as it related to police and community relations and as it related to the school system, because we were getting into the school system at the same time, and we were annoying some people over there. And as a result of that, some board members got together and talked with the administration, and as a result of that the c ommission was initially resolved as a department and placed under MDA. But that all occurred primarily because the mayor wanted direct control over that staff or over that operation and he did n t have it with th e board there because th e board serve d as a buffer between the administration and the staff. O A: It's not under MDA now, right? JD: It's still OA: It's still under there? JD: It's still under there. It's not MDA anymore, but it still comes under what is called HICKS now. Housing, Inspections, Community Development, it still comes under that are a. OA: The Office of Community Relations. JD: Right. OA: I used to know it was under MDA, but I didn't it was still under there. JD: It's still under MDA. OA: Okay. HJ : Mr. Daniels, were the riots just in the black areas? JD: Yes, just in the basic ally all the activity occurred on Central Avenue. HJ : Okay, why did they start rioting? What prompted the riots? JD: Allegedly [Martin] Chambers had stolen some camera equipment 5 from down on Emma Street S ome police saw him walking in that vicinity, I don't know specifically where it was, and they asked him to stop H e didn't stop and a chase developed. And he was shot in the back, you know I f you would see where he was shot h ave you ever ? D id you ever see that area? OA: No. JD: O kay W ell, you kno w it was ri ght in the there were some two story buildings back 5 June 11, 1967, in Tampa, Florida.
10 up in there. FB: In back of the shoe place right off Cass. OA: Okay. JD: You know where Johnnie Mandese [Auto Repair] i s on Cass Street? There's a six foot fence that runs all the way aroun d there. Well, that fence, you know, came down like this wall here and went that way. Right i n here you had two or three story buildings that were in there. Well, he was shot in that corner, in the back. FB: The top of (inaudible) comes over this way. JD: T here was no way he could get away and they were pursuing him from both sides. OA: Oh, I see O kay. JD: And there was really no reason for having to shoot him, b ecause if they had continued to pursue him they c ould have caught him. OA: The officer that shot him, was he black ? JD: No. OA: He wasn't? JD: No. HJ : And so they took that over into Central and started JD: Well, it was right in the Central area ; it's only about two blocks from Central. FB: A block. JD: A block from Central. It was right there in the projects. HJ : Okay, they were destroying things that were black owned or white owned or what ? JD: There were black owned business es and white owned business es and they didn't care. All they wanted was merchand ise. And they hit every thing that was on Central. T hey burned that drugs tore down. FB: They burned the Palace Drugstore. JD: They burned all that down. They burned the Village Bar down, the laundromat and Palace Drug store. And all of that was w hite owned. The major stuff dow n there was
11 white owned. What did they hit down there that was black down there? FB : The only place that they hit that was black was the Greek Stand, and they didn't do nothing but knock the windows out of that. JD : Because there wasn't anything out FB : They didn't insure the place. JD : What did they do to the pawn shop? FB: (inaudible) JD: T hey cleaned out the pawn shop T here was a grocery store in there. Well, basically the losses that occurred were losses on the part of white s that own ed stuff t here in that community. OA: Yeah, that's something that need s to be understood. JD: Uh huh HJ : Because I noticed that whenever there's a riot and blacks want to riot, they always riot within the black district. OA : It's safer. HJ : I oftentimes wond e r why would blacks go into your are a to riot W hy not go into the w hite area? OA: There was some commotion between Twenty Second [Street] and Main [Street] right ? JD: Yeah, t here was some bottle throwing. (Intercom buzzes) As w hites would pass through the community they would throw bottle s in the cars and that kind of stuff. That happen ed on Twenty Second, and that did happen to an extent on Main. FB : Okay, can you describe say, historically, problems that have affected blacks as opposed to your uni t as opposed to the department which you worked in, some of the problems you had to attack during this time, other than like employment? JD: Well, there are three areas that we've looked at and been concerned about and that we feel that ha d fallacies in them and have dealt with the same ones that we are facing with now : p olice, c ommunity relations, employment and education. Those are things that we were fighting ten years ago. And the same problems we were having ten years ago in trying to get across to those individuals, I think we re having some of the same kinds of problems again. Now the only time that I think we made any kind of inroads was
12 immediately after the riots, for about two or three years. And after that period things went back to busines s as usual. OA: When you say inroads you mean (inaudible)? JD: Take for an example before the riots I was telling you about the difficulties I was having developing jobs. After the riots we didn't have to leave the office. The jobs just poured in on th e telephone. OA: Oh, wow. JD: We were able to do some things with the school system in terms of cooperate efforts in talking of bettering relationships in the school system. N ever no positive input into the police department other than developing a po lice community relations division within that department ; that's the only inroad we made into that area. OA: What about the war on poverty mon ies ? When that come in? Was it a hassle getting them here ? D id the c ity want them? What were some of the fears? JD: Yeah, [ Congressman Sam] Gibbons, I think, was primarily responsible for the influence of federal dollars into this community. And it had to do with a whole lot of politics that Interview paused JD: The first federal money that was brought into the community to amount to anything was brought in by Jim Hammond with that preschool program, and that was the beginning. And then you had the war on poverty money that came in. T hat was basically controlled let's see I think Bob had a whole lot of input in to that. We never did really get into that money too much other than as a spinoff of the riots ; w e developed some programs to work with young adults a nd we got some federal monies for that W e brought individuals in who were between I can't think of the age, but they were young adults and we paid them and tried to provide some remedial training for them and place them in employment. Because we had a situation where I think they would work half a day and they would come back into a training environment for half a day and after X number of weeks they would be placed on jobs. And that was very interesting thing too because we brought guys in wh o had [criminal] records and what have you W e had some guys who had records for shoplifting and that kind of stu ff (intercom buzzes) that were ringing cash registers in the department stores. But all of that happen ed immediately after the riots S o therefore these things open ed up then, and I do not feel that these things would have been available had it not been for the confrontation that exist ed here in the community. I can't perceive how many thousands of dollars we received from the federal government over a two or three year period following that time that was basically centered around doing stuff for the you ng adults.
13 OA: I would like for you to tell us about the transition from Hammond to the present director, Mr. Jones. JD: I'm trying to think ; how did that occur? Jim got a better offer; I guess that's what happen ed I think he went with [A.L.] Nell um and Associates Nell um made him an offer and made him vice president of the co r p o ration. And because of the economics involved OA: (laughs) Of course. JD: he decided to leave. Plus another thing, I think it may be interesting to find out why Nell um wanted Hammond b ecause Hammond was d o ing some things that were very innovative in terms of developing employment programs. O ne of the major programs that we had going at that time was called an accelerated clerical program. We would go out and contract with i ndustr y to provide X n umber of clerical persons for them, a nd we would provide the technical trainin g and they would provide the on the job training and after a certain period of time these individuals would be phased into the company. We would go out and develop this with a contact. And they would say, "O kay we want one person ; we want two persons, what have you S o this was very successful. I don't how many young women we cycled in the industry as a result of this program. And this is one of the progra ms Hammond tried to carry with him. OA: Yeah, I remember. JD: (laughs) When he left the commission and I think there was some misunderstanding about that and eventually after he went with Nell um he used that prototype in order to do other things. And I think there were federal monies coming in for this training, so therefore this is where Nell um made his money. The government, the Department of Labor would give him X number of thousands of dollars to train so many people if he had commitments from indu stry. And this is how that came about. And then there was a conflict between Hammond and Nell um, eventually and that split and then Hammond went into OA: Where was Nell um from? JD: Washington. OA: Washington? JD: Yeah, that's where it was based. OA : Let's back up a little bit L et's get a little more political. Do you remember when Hammond ran for office?
14 JD: Yeah, that was in 1962. OA: Okay. JD: He ran for election supervisor, I believe. OA: Okay. I never knew what he ran for. JD: I think it w as election supervisor I can recall working as a precinct worker out on Fiftieth Street and the crackers jugged at me all day long. (OA laughs) I was actually afraid to go back out there after lunch B ut what happened, I hooked up with some more people and we went out there and we stayed until it was over with. But you know, all kinds of comments were made during the day I was out on Fifty Sixth Street and some place, I can't recall exactly where it was. That is about as much as I recall, you know. FB : You can't remember nothing about the campaign as such D id he really campaign in white communities? What type of platform did he have ? A nything like that? JD: No, I can't remember any specifics. OA: That would be interesting to see how he ran his campai gn. I think he was like the second black to run for political office, after [Francisco J unior ] Rodriguez. JD: I believe so. HJ : Were you here during the Reverend [A. Leon] Lowry civil r ights movement ? JD: I think I was in school basically at that tim e. What happen ed, I think when I came out of school Hammond had the P rogressive Young A dults 6 working and what we were doing at that time was trying to int egrate the public accommodation facilities, the lunch counters, the theater s and I can recall some i ncidents that we had with drive ins. FB : Yeah, okay I heard about the Y oung A dults. That's what we want to talk to Hammond about. JD: The Young A dults were in the process of phasing out, I think in sixty two  when I came out of school. Well, I think Hammond was actually another interesting point was actually selected for that job because of his activities with the Young A dults. So you see that OA: Yeah, I can see it. (inaudible) JD: Nobody has really said that, but I am almost certain that's what it was. OA: It's brilliant. See ms logical Yeah, that's right. 6 Young Adults for Progressi ve Action.
15 JD: That's how he merged into that position, because of his activeness with the Y oung A dults a nd basically dealing with the public accommodation things, and the voter things and that so rt of stuff. FB : Okay, we can sort of let you just bring us up to the present T here are some things that we definitely want to know about. We want to know about blacks' relationships to the c ity in terms of being workers, this type of thing. JD: Oh F B: W hat is our situation presently? A nd we also want to talk with you about what you thought were the implication of the Barclay [ Barclay v. Florida ] decision and that type of thing. You probably (inaudible). JD: One of my first as signments when I came w ith the c ity was to conduct a survey of all those departments w h ere you had a large number of blacks t he sanitation department, the park s departme nt the sanitary sewer department, and the water department and to make recommendations for upgrading blacks t hat had been there over a period of years. I went through all the department s and as we figured they were on the bottom. FB : This was under [William] Poe administration? JD: This was under Nuccio administration. FB: Okay. JD: And after the survey wa s conducted, we recommended that certain classes of individuals be considered for promotions as promotions became available because basically they were q ualified because of their tenure and experience. W e also recommended educational training for a certai n group. We did a whole analysis of those departments. OA: Do you think you can find that survey? JD: I think Ms. Sweaten still has that information someplace. OA: Those would be good historical document s W e could never get them from her, but if you co uld, that would (inaudible). JD: I might be able to find them. I had about four or five departments that we did full reports on and made recommendation to Nuccio. But that was a transition Nuccio went out and Greco came in, and Greco never did implement the studies. The same thing that the city got nailed with eventually, in terms of the conciliation agreement, were based on some of the things that I told them that we identified as being inequities in the system for blacks back in 1967. A nd those things f inally caught up with them in seventy six 
16 in terms of identifiable discrimination by a regulatory agency. During the time that we were working in employment and trying to phase blacks into nontraditional occupations with industry and business, we got a whole lot of flack from the business community, because they begin to say to us "W hy are you out here telling us what to do ?" a nd "You work for the c ity and you are not do ing anything for the city ; the c ity doesn t have any blacks And so with that input having to be address ed we made a recommendation to the city c ouncil and to the mayor who was Nuccio at that who was Greco a t that time that we develop a training program for the city and we did On the same concept, you know: having a classro om session in the evening and then actually putting them in the jobs during the day, bypassing the c ivil s ervice examination. And I don't know how many there are records on that also. Now, we had I don't know how many people came into the program, but they were hired at ten percent less than the normal salary would be for that slot that they were training in. They didn t have to take a c ivil s ervice examination. After so many weeks they were to be exposed to the c ivil s ervice examination and those indiv iduals who passed the c ivil s ervice examination were to be hired. I don't know what the percentage of those individuals were who passed, but we did have a number of individuals who failed the c ivil s ervice examination. After those individuals failed the c i vil s ervice examination we challenged the examination as not being relevant because we had weekly evaluations over a number of weeks where the supervisors had rated these individuals as excellent employees, was doing the job. W e tried to deal with the validity of examinations back in sixty seven  and sixty eight [19 68 ] And there are all kinds of reports. We had some professors from the University of South Florida who were helping us with the statistical analysis and making the recommendations sa ying that the test were not really relevant to the job because you know the people have actually performed the job. I don't know how many we hired but ultimately what we did there were some people that could not be hired. W e went to industry and I thin k industry helped us out in phasing those individuals who could not be hired in the c ity ; we put them some place in industry. T hrough this program was the first time we were able to place blacks in the f ire d epartment. Those blacks that went in to the fir e d epartment and I don't think those blacks passed that examination during that time either. OA: Tucker told us about that. JD: Huh? OA: Tucker told us about that. JD: Because what happen ed after they got into the department they couldn't pass the e xamination, but they went through the firefighter training T hey had excellent scores on
17 all the training programs that they went through within the f ire d epartment, but they couldn't pass the examination. And the same thing exists today with that examinat ion. OA: That's right. (Intercom buzzes) JD: I had thirty one blacks to take the examination about two weeks ago we scheduled it o n a Saturday and of that thirty one, two passed. OA: Ooh! HJ: Ooh! JD: And the examination was supposed to have been v alidated. And so this adds to it I don't really concur with the validation study, but we can't get the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to make any comments on it. And so I did some things with the Urban League yesterday in reference to the test. ( OA laughs) And so we are working on that. But as a result of that training program, we got our token blacks into the various departments in the c ity g overnment. There were many departments in city g overnment that didn't have any blacks at all, but as a r esult of that program the token blacks were placed into various departments. FB : And Nuccio was still the mayor at this time ? JD: No, Greco was mayor during that time. What was the other areas you said you were concerned about? OA: Just let him just bring it up the present in terms of similarity between now and then, just like you were doing. JD: I'm trying to think, what else did we become involved in? OA: For example, the latest conciliation agreement, the history of that and how it came about th at type of thing. JD: Okay. When the amendment to Title 7 went into effect in seventy two [19 72 ] the Office of Community Relations was involved in affirmative action programs. W e had a grant from (intercom buzzes) the Technical Assistan ce Division of the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission in order to provide technical assistan ce to businesses and industries that were identified jointly by the Commission, by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Office of Community Relations. We did thi s based on some statistic s that were sent to us by the Equal Opportunity Commission.
18 (Intercom buzzes) This is another interesting thing that happen ed, too W e had about thirty five or forty companies that we were supposed to go into and assist these co mpanies in developing affirmative action programs. And they ranged from the small er companies a ll the way up to Jim Walters Corpo ration. Now the program operated for two years very successfully, but when we got to the [ Tampa ] Tribune to the radio stations and to Jim Walters Co rpo ration, our contract was canceled. (Intercom buzzes) FB: (inaudible) JD: No, the c ity refused to honor it any longer. HJ: (to someone else) Black History. OA: Same old, same old. (laughs) JD: Going into what was another ar ea ? O kay I was telling you about when we had the contract and then that was canceled I was tell ing you about the amendment of seventy two [19 72 ]. W e were already involved, you know, in affirmative action working with private industry, but after seventy t wo [19 72 ] when they passed the amendment, that meant that political subdivisions in governments were then subject to the law. Well at that particular time, Goosby wrote a letter to Greco and told Greco that we didn't think our house was in order, and we n eed ed to start doing something in order to put it in shape. T here was a committee formed and the committee really didn't do anything because Marshall Jesse e was on the committee W e were trying to make surveys and we couldn't get t he information and al l this here. So eventually, we said "W e'll tell what we will do. W e know some people that are technical assistance people with the Equal Opportunity Commission who will come in and do the survey for nothing. And if we have the people from the Equal Oppor tunity Commission come in and do the survey and tell us what's w rong, we will be in good shape." Well we sold them on that idea W e brought an individual by the name of June Thompson down from Washington S he was a very charming young lady S he talked wi th the c ivil s ervice b oard, she t alked with the c it y council, she talked with the m ayor and everybody agreed for her to come in and she did. I think June came in seventy three [19 73 ]. S he must have worked on that survey something like six months, and it must have been another six months before the survey was completed. And once the survey was completed and ready to be sent into the City of Tampa, because a part of agreement [was that] we would do the study but we want voluntary compliance. Whatever we fi nd wron g, you will voluntarily correct. T hat was the understanding, th e agreement between
19 the City of Tampa and the Technical Assistan ce Division of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. But when the survey was finally completed, we were in trans itions in terms of mayors. Greco had resigned and [Richard] Chene y ha d come in and had died, [Lloyd] Copeland was setting in T hey didn't want to bring that report in because it was a very sensitive report, and whenever they came in to present the report, they wanted to deal with a stable administration. Eventually Mayor Poe came in It was w ithin that interim period I think during that interim period this is when the report was forced in, by basically the NOW [National Organization for Women] Organizatio n. T hey were really putting pressure because by that time, between seventy two [19 72 ] and we were all the way up to sixty five [19 65 ] we were all the way up between seventy two [19 72 ] and seventy five [19 75 ], a number of complaints had generated. There had been a class action complaint filed by the National Organization of Women, there had been a series of individual charges filed by officers of the Police Department, there had been a class action suit filed by the NAACP [National Association for the Advanc ement of Colored People] And EEOC had been in on a variety of those charges and had found probable cause. Now you got probable cause findings that are outstanding and you have a technical assistance report that is very critical A ll those things came together, and when those things came together, EEOC said Y ou are going to do something or we are going to turn you over to justice and we're going to carry you to court. And that's when I became involved. I received a call and I was told that the mayor was getting ready to cut an executive order to make me the EEO Director. I said "N o way, and they said "What you mean? I said "W ell you all can't do that I'm a civil s ervice employee you know, and you can't make me anything. FB : You were still a t the Office of Community Relations? JD: I was still with the Office of Community Relations. FB : The mayor was still in his early part of just entering office. JD: Yeah, still had to serve out Greco's term. I was going on vacation. I said we ll I wrote them a letter and I told them in the letter I wasn't interested in the position I had a number of friends who were in that position It was very sensitive and they were very frustrated people and I didn't want any part of it. I went on vacation and whe n I got back from vacation, the same day that I returned, I was called to the mayor's office and there was another long discussion. FB : Who was the mayor? JD: Still Poe, serving out Greco's term. And so eventually they said "W hat about just taking on a temporary basis so he can deal with the situation at hand?
20 And I said "O kay, I'll take it but you know it's still a heavy burden and I'm not going to take unless you pay me for it. He said "O kay, how much money do you want? I said I want $22, 000 (OA laughs) H e paused, and he said "D o you know that I have department heads who have three o r four hundred people working for them that I don't pay that kind of money?" I said "Y es I know that, but ain't nobody working for me Y ou are giving m e this job, which is a very difficult job that I'm going to have to handle by myself, and I think it merits that kind of money. And so he asked me how much I made and I told him I made $18,000 at that particular time H e said "W ell okay ," and I thin k he went to the bathroom or someplace H e came back and he said I'll compromise with you I'll give you $20,000 now and I'll give you another thousand within six months and then another thousand Well he called me back, must have been about six mo nths later and told me that he was about three or four months later and told me he was giving me the other thousand then because he didn't know when he could give me the other thousand And after that discussion I said I can't work by myself. I got t o have some staff I was stupid at that particular time. I asked for a secretary ; that's all I asked for. (OA laughs) I said I need a secret ary, and I need an office." H e said "W ell okay. He sent me down to budget, to the c ontroller "G o down to th e c ontroller and tell him ; go to Citizen Building and pick out what you want J ust tell them anything you want, just to give it to you. And that's the way that started out. OA: You the c ity's first EEO o fficer? JD: Yeah. OA: That's historically import ant. JD: Well, immediately after that we started negotiating with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. And the decision had been made that we did not want to go into court ; we wanted to settle out of court. And so immediately we began implementi ng changes in order to comply with some of the EEO regulations that we weren't complying with previously W e negotiated for about six months, and eventually we came up with the conciliation agreement which was signed May 20, 1976. And it involved roughly a $100,000 in back pay and preferences for promotions for about 250 people, of which 65 to 70 percent of those people have been promoted as of this day.
21 OA: Was NOW satisfied with the agreement? JD: Yes, they were very satisfied, very pleased with it, bu t they still contend that the agreement is not being implement ed properly or that we are violating the agreement. And there could be some violations, but if there are violations of the agreement they are minor B ut you know, discrimination still goes on A nd the agreement is not going to circumvent that; that's going to occur and you just have to deal with it on a daily basis as it occurs. I think that they look at discrimination that is occurring and say W e got an agreement violation, but I don't loo k at it per se. The agreement is a basic document that tells what you are going to do in terms of policies and procedures and that kind of thing. But the agreement will never control individual discrimination. OA: Yeah, that's true. Do you think the avera ge black that works for the c ity is aware of your office and aware of the purpose of affirmative action? JD: They are aware of the office, but in terms of the intricacies of affirmative action, no. Because when you look at the black work force, we have I think blacks constitute approximately 27 percent of our work force. But of that 27 percent, I would say 20 percent is basically in the low in the laboring trade categories and individuals don't have a great deal of formal education, but they're wizards W hen you go out there, they can lay pipes and do all that other stuff (intercom buzzes) without any compli cations whatsoever. And this is one of the things that we were able to address in the agreement W e had individuals who were laying pipes and who were doing other kinds of laboring trade occupations at supervisory level s but were never able to pass the foreman's test per se. But what we did we were able to go in, as a result of the conciliation agreement and reclassif y those individuals. Y ou doing t he job, we are going to reclassify you S o there is no examination really involved And we picked up a number of individuals who we had identified in the 250 as individuals who had been potentially discriminated against. W e looked at their educational leve l and we noted that they had not progressed the same as their white counterparts who came to the system at the same time. S o base d on that alone we sa id T here is a possibility that this individual has been discriminated against, so we are pulling him out and we are making hi m an effective class individual," w hich means that we would pay him so much money on the front end and then give him preference consideration as promotional opportunities occur. But some of those individual s, we just went in and r eclassified them rather than waiting for a promotion to occur and then give them preferential consideration for such. We did a number of individuals like that in the laboring trade departments b asically the w ater d epartment, s anitary s ewer Department, an d p ublic w orks d epartment. OA: About c ity d epartment heads and these people who are supervisor s who make decision s what's the ir attitude in relationship to a ff irmative a ction overall? (laughs) JD: White folks don't like a ffirmative a ction, white males particularly.
22 OA: (inaudible) JD: You know they don't tell me this, but I have sense enough to know B ecause if I don't pressure them or monitor very closely, they won t do anything and so in order for them to do anything I have to monitor them continu ously and keep reminding them "L ook I've got a black applicant. H e looks real good to me ; what do you think about him?" And the mere fact that I do that, you know, they say, "Well, if I don't consider this guy, it's a possibility Daniels might come back and say I discriminated. OA: I see. JD: What I do especially for professional positions what I do is try and keep an affirmative action file on people, of resumes A nd when positions become available, you know, I drop the resume to the guy, say "T ake a look at this individual ; he seem s to look pretty good. In some cases it works out and then I drop to where I say, "T his guy can help you because you really don't have any blacks in this area. T his can help to improve your utilization. And the way th e system is developed I can monitor that entire process. When the d epartment head cuts the requisition, it's calle d a 409. W hen that comes into the office, I get a copy of it. It has to go to the budget to be approved and once it's approved it goes into c ivil s ervice. When c ivil s e rvice develops that eligibility list that comes to me. It goes to the department for selection and when he makes the selection it comes back in and that comes to me also. So I can look at that whole process and tell almost o n a daily basis what department heads are doing in order to me et their affirmative obligation FB : What is the direction of your department in view of the Bar c l a y decision? JD: We are going to continue as we have W e don't feel the Bar c l a y decision has a ny adverse effect on what we are doing. And the m ayor has publicly made that statement. FB : That's good. JD: To all of the department heads. FB : Okay, but in terms of the psychological implications, for example just generalizing. JD: What it's going t o do is stimulate a whole lot of reverse discrimination suit s. End of interview