Brian Smith

Citation
Brian Smith

Material Information

Title:
Brian Smith
Series Title:
West Central Florida land use oral history project
Creator:
Smith, Brian, 1942-
Mansfield, Bill
University of South Florida Libraries -- Florida Studies Center. -- Oral History Program
University of South Florida -- Tampa Library
Place of Publication:
Tampa, Fla
Publisher:
University of South Florida Tampa Library
Publication Date:
Language:
English
Physical Description:
1 sound file ( 79 min.) : digital, MPEG4 file + ;

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Regional planning -- Florida -- Pinellas County ( lcsh )
Public spaces -- Florida -- Pinellas County ( lcsh )
Genre:
Oral history. ( local )
Online audio. ( local )
interview ( marcgt )
Oral history ( local )
Online audio ( local )

Notes

Summary:
Brian Smith, a county planner for Pinellas County Florida since 1970 and director of the Pinellas County Metropolitan Planning Organization, discusses his county planning experiences. He addresses issues of county and state politics, environmental land, sustainable planning, concurrency in planning, taxation, citizen participation, the interests of developers, and the process of county planning. He also discusses the Pinellas Trail, its effect on the county's development, and similar initiatives.
Venue:
Interview conducted October 5, 2006, in Tampa, Fla.
System Details:
Mode of access: World Wide Web.
Statement of Responsibility:
interviewed by William Mansfield.

Record Information

Source Institution:
University of South Florida Library
Holding Location:
University of South Florida
Rights Management:
All applicable rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier:
028708288 ( ALEPH )
206910295 ( OCLC )
W34-00001 ( USFLDC DOI )
w34.1 ( USFLDC Handle )

Postcard Information

Format:
Audio

Downloads

This item has the following downloads:


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West Central Florida land use oral history project
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Brian Smith, a county planner for Pinellas County Florida since 1970 and director of the Pinellas County Metropolitan Planning Organization, discusses his county planning experiences. He addresses issues of county and state politics, environmental land, sustainable planning, concurrency in planning, taxation, citizen participation, the interests of developers, and the process of county planning. He also discusses the Pinellas Trail, its effect on the county's development, and similar initiatives.
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text William Mansfield: Test, one, two, three, fourone, two, three, four. All right thats good. Testing one, twothere we go. Make sure this is running.
1
00:00:20.0
But this is Bill Mansfield from the University of South Floridas Special Collections and the Patel Center for Global Solutions and Im talking to Mr. Brian Smith on October 5, 2006. Were here in the planning offices?
2
00:00:36.3
Brian Smith: Yes, the County Planning Department, for Pinellas County.
3
00:00:39.2
WM: Pin-ellas or Pine-ellas?
4
00:00:40.7
BS: Pie-nellas.
5
00:00:41.9
WM: All right, Pinellas County. And Mr. Smith we always get people to start off by having them state their name and telling us when they were born and where they were born.
6
00:00:52.4
BS: I am Brian Smith. I was born August 29, 1942. I was born in London, England. I was registered as an American Citizen, by my mother when I was born.
7
00:01:4.2
WM: Um-huh.
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00:01:8.0
BS: Then we came to this country in 1949.
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00:01:9.1
WM: And where did you growup here?
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00:01:12.0
BS: Grew-up in several different locationsa lot in the New England area. My father was in thefollowed defense contracts; which would only run for maybe two or three years and then youd change locations. So I lived in Michigan and California and again New England and also in Florida, is pretty much where my family settled in, in the early sixties.
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00:01:40.0
WM: Okay. And tell me your current occupation.
12
00:01:45.3
BS: Current occupation is Im a county planner. Im with the County Planning Department and Im the director of the department and have a dual role there. Im not only the county planning director, but also in that capacity Im the director of what they call the MPO, or the Metropolitan Planning Organization, which is the lead transportation agency in the county.
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00:02:6.4
Every urban area is required to have an MPO and in our county thatsour department is that function.
14
00:02:12.8
WM: Okay. Describe if you will the duties and responsibilities of the County Planning Director.
15
00:02:19.2
BS: The County Planning Director we do all the growth management for the county, so we review not only all the development plans, but actually also develop the plan for the county and then recommend it to the county commission. Then, under state law, there are a lot of things you have to do to keep that plan up to date. We do all of those functions.
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00:02:40.8
Our department is the designated local planning agency for the county. And therefore we carry a lot of those functions that are in that State Chapter 163. Then, also, because youre the custodian of a lot of data and analysis and so on as part of the planning we get a lot of other jobs and tasks dealing with using that data, applying to everything from annexation reviews to project and facility reviews.
17
00:03:9.2
WM: Okay and developmentwell maybe Im getting ahead of myself here but, Ive done some research and it talked about the original plan for the county was done in 1979. Is that correct?
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00:03:25.4
BS: The background was, when I started with the county in 1970, there was a very generalized plan that we had on the wall. It would show where future residential was, future commercial and it was very general. The zoning was much more site specific.
19
00:03:45.4
In fact the zoning, Im told, was originally established in the fifties. We needed zoning and the property appraiser asked everybody what they would like for their zoning.
20
00:03:56.0
Im sure there was more to it than that, but that was pretty much how things got set up. Therefore there were a lot ofyou knowa lot of things were established that way. I dont think people viewed zoning the same way they do now.
21
00:04:10.0
And then it was just permitting a use thing, but there werent issues about density control, or things like that. At that time the residentialthe apartmentwas pretty much whatever you could fit on the property. There werent any destiny limits.
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00:04:22.5
Then there was the concern about actually having control and a plan that was to be followed. So they set up a countywide plan, with a special act through the legislature, just for Pinellas County. We actually had a plan adopted in 1974 that was county wide and had the force and effect of law; which was a totally new concept.
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00:04:48.9
Up to that time planning was advisory. It was something you worked toward with the zoning. All of a sudden, when you showed it on the plan as commercial or whatever it was, thats what was to happen. That was a totally new idea. The next year, the legislature passed the Local Government Comprehensive Planning Act, they called it the LGCPA, in 1975. And that placed the same requirement throughout the state. It said any plan you adopted would have that effect of law and zoning would have to adhere directly to it.
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00:05:25.1
So it was around the seventy-four [1974], seventy-five [1975] time frame that thingsthe rules changed, not only for us but also for the rest of the state.
25
00:05:32.3
WM: Well based on what you said, prior to seventy-four [1974] it was fairly lax?
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00:05:39.7
BS: Yes. Probably the people at the time would say it wasnt necessarily lax, it was just a different procedure. It was all about zoning. The plan wasnt really a governing influence in how development occurred. It was more of a futuristicjust a sort of advisory type of a document. It was a guide.
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BS: And so, I dont know whether it would be lax or not, it probably depended on the communities, how much it was. Because people have always been concerned about whats happening.
28
00:06:9.4
You know the whole origin of zoning was keeping neighbors from affecting you and something like that. So its probably a judgement call about how it was used.
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WM: Okay. What kind of reaction was there when it changed?
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00:06:26.8
BS: I would say it was kind of traumatic for more the planners than it was [for] the community. Because all of a sudden we had a plan that had to be followed exactly. I dont think we quite realized that when we put it into effect how do you work this?
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00:06:44.0
Now, everybody accepts it. The plan is black-and-white, you follow it. But back then it meant that if you had some zoning density that was more than what the plan showed, you couldnt do that. Or if you had a piece of commercial property and you even had commercial zoning, but the plan showed it as residential then you couldnt really do anything with the property, cause it wasnt residential. So the planners were the most who had to do a lot of major adjustment and thinking to deal with that.
32
00:07:11.3
Now, of course, even in the state, when I said the Local Government Comprehensive Plan Act, that 1975 act, the plans that came into effect under that were around 1980 or eighty-one [1981]. Thats when planning in the state started really getting in gear and the plans started reallylike you could see, they called the act the Managed Growth Act. So you, really before that, didnt have a Managed Growth Act at all. You just had zoning, looking at adjacent uses and who is going tosort of minimize the most conflicts.
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00:07:47.8
But the plan started talking about that you need to look at these other elements of the plan: recreation, transportation, water and things like that. Then you would then start developing a plan based upon all of those. So we in Pinellas County did the same thing as other parts of the state. As an example, it was through that procedure that we would start looking at density limits, based upon what we could dosort of support. So we started ramping down the density requirements quite a bit. Wed even have these low-density categories of one unit an acre, two and a half units an acre, a much lower range of uses.
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00:08:40.8
WM: And what does R-1, R-2?
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BS: Okay, R-1, R-2 and R-3 were all single-family zones, with varying lot sizes. Anything from six thousand square feet was R-3, seventy-five hundred was R-2 and I think ten thousand. R-1I thinkcant remember exactly the numberit was something larger like 10,000, Im not quite sure I remember the numbers. Then those that were all 1, 2 and 3, the single-family zones.
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Then R-4 was a duplex, triplex zone that you permitted.
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Then R-5 was the apartment zone. There was no density statement in it at all. You just permitted apartments and condominiums or anything else you put in there.
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00:09:30.9
Then, to round it all out, the other residential zone was R-6, which was mobile homes.
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And that was pretty much the cookbook that not only we used, but pretty much used around in all the communities, throughout the statea similar number range. But you could see, there for, that it didnt matter. The apartment had to do what the market wanted, what they thought they would work with it. But it could be anything from a high rise to a townhouse. It was just not thatthe zoning didnt limit that, which is interesting. As now thats a very commonyouve got all kinds of specifics about that category now.
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WM: Wellthe plans that were drawn up, how much local input was there. I mean, cause just from hearing you talk I get the impression that people from the state came in and applied the plan to the county. So how did it work?
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00:10:28.8
BS: Okay, well it actually wasnt the state coming in. The state had this requirement and the legislature put it in place. There was very little engagement from the state side. It was each local government had to figure out how to develop a plan in conformance with the state law.
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And actually, because of the flexibility of it, everybodys plan would be quite different. How you did manage growth could be looked at different ways. Actually that was what triggered the update, about several years later, in the mideighties. I think around 1985 the Managed Growth Act went in.
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In this case it started really ramping-up the requirements for what a local government had to have in its plan. They started developing a lot more of a specific cookbook, rather than Thou shalt plan it Ye shall plan and do it the following way.
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So thats when you got into, not just density and location requirements for land uses, but then thats when you kicked in the concurrency requirements, to where development could not occur until support services were there or were there in a certain time period. That was the 1985 Act. Those plans would have rolled in around 1989, ninety [1990], ninety-one [1991], around the state.
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But you had what they called a at that point things had ramped up with the statewas now feeling that they wanted to make sure that the local governments did a good on-line plan and so they wrote rules for them. I think it was called 9-J-5 requirements. It was a special rule that the Department of Community Affairs had that said, This is whats going to be in your plan. Not only [that] but the legislature said with twelve elements but this is whats going to be in each of the elements of the plan and all that. So there was a ramping up of if you want to say accountability.
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And then your plans had to be sent to the state for them to agree with. If they didnt like it they could tell you so and their enforcement was to hold back some state money or something like that.
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WM: The carrot or the stick?
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BS: Your usual thing. But the state doesnt have a lot. You would still have a legal plan, it just meant that they would beplus, they probably wouldnt have needed that. Local government isnt going to be adopting something that the state has said they dont think is good.
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WM: So how did you all go about putting the plan together?
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BS: Well it was your traditional procedure. What you would do is, and this had to do with even the first plan that we did. I would say when we really started getting evolved in planning would have been from the mid-seventies, under what they call the Local Government Comprehensive Planning Act, the old LGCPA. That was 1975. Thats when we really stared planning.
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And you had these various elements, so what you did was you would draft up an element and then youd have community workshops. Youd go into the community and advertise and itd be very similar to the process were using now. You go out have informal workshops and you show them draft plans. You listen to what they have to say. You refine what you did, based upon the public comment. Then you start, then, into a public hearing process where youve got a board sitting up front and people commenting. You do that as your planning agency. Then you make a recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners, act on it. Those were all in public hearing process.
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00:13:56.7
But probably Id say the first one that was done in the early 1980s, like eighty [1980], eighty-one [1981], like that, that plan. We had a lot of people showing up at the hearing because we were stillhaving a plan that was going to have this effect peoples property more than other plans.
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So, you really had a lot of people that were being affected. So when we adopted the plan we would have a list connected with it of all these people that were property owners that said, Well, Im okay with the plan if Im allowed to do such-and-such for a year so. Like this, the site plans might be active.
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00:14:35.4
So what happened was, to get that plan through you had to do a lot of that. You had toNow its more because plans have been in place for a while, its always about a change on a particular parcel or area. But back then you had the whole county to deal with. So you, therefore, probably had a hundred to two hundred different parcels that we were going to effect, because it just wasnt the right use.
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So how do you deal with that over time? How do you phase them out? Or do youwhatever. And so theyre all case-by-case. So we had a whole folder full of those when we were first doing the plan, putting them online. That wasnt easy. (laughs)
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WM: (laughs) I can imagine. You said that at the workshops you had a large turnout?
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BS: I would say it was moderate. The reason the turnout was occurring because this was the first time people were being impacted by a plan. A lot of the people that were showing up were people that were affected directly by the plan. There were some people also there that were concerned about the environment and that we needed to have density controls. There was that part of the community as well.
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It was in the early years to where we had a lot of environmental lands that hadnt been threatened with development, but you could still see the handwriting on the wall. So part of the plan was then not regulation, part of the plan was also how to get a blueprint going to acquire and protect properties that we were concerned about.
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Actually we had, in the early-seventies [1970s] developed a list of a 161 properties that we wanted to have preserved. Everything from a whole Grouper Creek preserved to something really small, like a one or two acre parcel. It was interesting, just a couple of years ago, we re-looked at that list and found that we had actually protected 160 out of 161 sites.
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WM: Wow, thats pretty good!
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BS: Which iswe actually got a national environmental award for it. Because, you know, we were able to document it. We had what you call a red-flag charrette program in the early 1970s. We put all the environmentalists together in a room, twenty or thirty people, ad all different kinds of expertise. They were out in the field making reports and identified a comprehensive map that listed all of the sites.
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It was known that we might not be able to get these right away, but this is a long-term program. Not all of the sites were acquired within a year or two; it was like a pushing thirty years type of program. So in addition to land regulation we were doing that.
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Although Ill admit that is still not without its debates. Because even if youre the owner of it, as the government, people could still be tempted to do things in these preserves. So, you know, its stillyou always have to have your eyes open, even on that side. So we had to then establish control procedures even for public ownership. So we have preservation category in the plan we put on the property that is now publicly owned and even say what is permitted and whats not permitted in terms of activities.
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WM: So like, hiking only?
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BS: Yes. Theres a lot of debate going on right now with us, with our preserves. Because it was assumed that you would only have, at the mostfirst of all there is a lot of environmental land that you wouldnt want anything to happen to, at all. Apparently you can make an argument that you didnt even want people walking in it. It was that kind of strict.
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Then we have passive recreation where youd have walking trails and things like that. That would be up, but you wouldnt be dealing with ball fields or any of the normal organized sports type of thing. It was just a preserve. And then over the years, Id say recent years, as we acquire more and more of this land and youve got public support to do it, the question came up, How does the public appreciate all of this investment theyve got in it? And youve got to have some form of access for these people to at least know whats out therewhat the environment is. So weve adjusted a little bit, that way the preserves are a little bit more open to the public. But thats been more in the last few years.
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But up until then it was put a fence around it; just the birds and the animals in there. No people, because its bad. (laughs) I think that thinking has changed a little bit.
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WM: Well I think that if you all preserved 160 out of 161 sites, that you thought were important that is something to feel good about.
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BS: Thats amazing.
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WM: But at the community workshops, you said you had the environmentalists, whoI guesswere more looking at the community interests. But the other people were they home owners? Property owners? I mean like rental property commercial folks, tell me about them.
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BS: Well, the kind of the people that would show up, besides the people from the environmental interests, the people from the Sierra Club and the environmental groups like that, and then the Friends of Something. You had also, the people that owned vacant land that wanted to know how much they were going to be limited or what they were going to beyou know what opportunities they had. And wanted to be looking out for their interests. Then you had, alsoyou didnt have a lot of homeowner group things, because they were already established.
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So I would more say it was groups that had the vacant land, the development interests, the people that wanted to preserve things. And then you had some people that were just concerned about, say, the impact on the roads system, congestion and things like that.
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But, also, when we were doing this we were developing not just a land use component, but you had these basically twelve elements of a plan. So you had people commenting on the transportation aspect, the recreation, open space aspect, the housing aspect. There were a lot of elements of the plan that we were holding hearings on. So it wasntI didnt want to over emphasize the land use alone.
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WM: Youve mentioned the twelve elements of the plan. Perhaps you could
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BS: I could go look them up. (both laugh) Theyre listed in the State Statutes 163, but generally speaking youre looking at a physical based plan, so there are then. There are elements that look at the land development. So youre looking at land use, transportation water, sewer, drainage, these kind of issues; recreation, open space, housing. Its focused primarily on those kinds of subjects. And there is about twelve of them.
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The interesting thing is that there wasthen you had other optional elements that had been little used. For instance, all the social aspect of our society, what we do thats not required or called for was all focused on the land side of things, land based or physical development.
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So, I think thats something, thats something thats ramped up in recent years, now thatfor us and probably other parts of the state, which is, What do we want to do in terms of planning, that should be part of plan for the social side of things. And thats still an emerging thing.
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To give you an example, we recently came up with the thirteenth element of the plan, which isnt in the book, at least in the states book. As it was we developed an element called planning to stay. We realized that, a couple of years ago, that all of our planning was based upon a green area, so to speak, where you just had open land, youre working with developing.
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But now our planning needed to take into account things were already developed and built out. So how do you protect whats built out and in some cases you might want to have some re-development. But in a lot of it there is a lot more pressure on the environmental land that was left, that maybe wasnt on the 160 list but theres still more environment.
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And sort of, how do you deal with the smaller parcels or the environmental land thats an upland area, that wasnt a wetland and things like that? So basically you want to come up with an element that said that you would havefuture generations, say our grandchildren, would still want to be Pinellas County to live work and play. Therefore [we need to] set up guidelines in the element for how would we approach future planning, with that assumption in mind. You could call it sustainable, but actually it was a little bit more than sustainable planning. Sustainable means youre just preserving. In this case were talking about way more than that, someone wanting to stay here, or wanting to come back, if they left, that sort of thing.
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00:23:19.6
Again, for jobs, for living for recreation for quality of life, just all of that and thats kind of been our guideline, now for the last couple of years in terms of our planning. Our county hassome people claim its built-out but thats notyou could say, like Manhattan, in New York is built out and yet therere still building things, doing things all the time. So I think thats what were looking at, is we want to have an economy thats continuing but it doesnt necessarily have to be this extra growth. It could be re-working things, making them better.
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00:23:53.9
Also, an emphasis on the quality of life aspectwe have the Pinellas Trail that we established in 1990. Actually it was part of that whole-managed growth initiative. We had eight million dollars, that was when we first established
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00:24:11.4
They put them in as growthsort of working back a little bit, in 1985 they, when they did that Managed Growth Act, the update and they made a much more comprehensive requirement on us for doing planning. They said you couldnt have development without supporting facilities, the concurrency aspect. They also put in there the fact that you could go for an infrastructure tax they call it of 1 percent sales tax. That would be the tool that you could get money to build the things you needed to support the development that youd identified, you know this sort of thing, because if you are required to have all of these improvements then you had to have money to do that.
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00:24:51.2
So what happened was we developed the plan and we developed an improvement list as well. And that was what was taken to a referendum in 1989 and passed. It was one of the few in the state at the time that passed. It passed by like 300 votes or something. But then thats where we got the money to do a lot of, not only road improvements and a lot of park, environmental acquisitions, we also built the Pinellas Trail with that, on an existing railline. I mean an abandoned rail line that the state had acquired.
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00:25:23.9
And he reason I mentioned that is it kind of influenced the whole approach, I think, of the county in terms of development in the future. This was the thirty-four mile corridor through the middle of the county that was continuous and didnt exist anywhere, even nationally. So you have other places where the trail will go from the city out, but in this case it goes through the middle of all our downtowns and the rest, like this. It was like an eight million-dollar ticket that was included in that penny program. We built that and were now dealing with were now dealing with extensions in that, but it influences peoples thinking. Its a bike-pedestrian trail in the middle of everything, in the middle of everythingin the middle of downtown; so a community like Dunedin, therefore just eventually work their downtown around it as a pedestrian friendly environment.
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00:26:17.3
So thats really influenced our whole approach to how we view development, emphasizing the bike-pedestrian. I dont want to over emphasize all of that because theyre still doing a lot of road building. But its sort of influenced your quality of life concept.
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00:26:33.8
WM: Well, I was going to ask what kind ofyou said the referendum to levy the tax for these kind of improvements, passed by 300 votes, which Id think would be sort of a slim margin.
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00:26:46.4
BS: It was very slim.
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WM: So since thats been in place, from what youve said, I assume its been successful.
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BS: Yeah.
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00:26:56.5
WM: So what kind of public support is there for public space like that?
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00:27:4.7
BS: Well, actually itfirst of all one of the reasons people felt the penny [tax] passed was because of the Pinellas Trail being in the package. Because then you had a number of citizens who were advocates for that. What we found was that if you did what you thought were important things, the jails and the court complexes, and the roads in there. People thought that was important but they werent necessarily going to vote for extra taxes for that that was just not there. But they would for an environmental preserve, for open space, for trails. That seemed to be the thing that hit a nerve with people. They would be, Okay thats fine. Well do that. They knew that you wouldnt do that without the extra tax.
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00:27:46.0
It was kind of an interesting thought process. It was expected that all of your normal government revenues would handle the basics. Therefore if you came up with something extra like that, theyd be willing to pay for it. But if you said my normal things I want extra money for the normal things. If you think about that message, that doesnt ring the same way with the public.
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00:28:3.4
So what you try to do is show that we got everything else covered, but these extra things that raise the bar for the quality of life, we want to have money for those. People bought that message.
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Now it was 300 people at that time in 1989, so it was a ten-year program. As were getting toward the end of the ten years, around 1997, we wanted to go out, again, for an extension, again for another ten years. So we put together another program; more trail work, more environmental acquisition and other road things. That passed by two-thirds to one-third vote. Because the public, seeing the benefit, and seeing whats happening they were really supportive of it. Now people call it the Penny, or the Penny for Pinellas has got a really high recognition to it. People just are for that, even if they arent for other taxes.
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So weve now scheduled a third referendum, which is going to be next spring in March. And even though there are all of these tax issues, around about property taxes and the rest, theyve done a polling and found that even with all of that debate 63 percent of the people would still vote for a penny extension.
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So I think its got a differentI wouldnt say different agenda, its got a different perception to it. Youre focused on things that raise the barthings that people are willing to really pay for. But its a distinction as opposed to those things that youve thought of as basics. They just think they should be covered by whatever money youve got. You shouldnt have to ask for kind of thing.
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WM: Well its great to see that there is public support for public space; I guess is a way to put that. But what about, what kind of opposition is there to that?
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BS: Well, in the past there hasnt really been any. Other than someone thatweve done surveys and there wold be, basically, a third of the populationI dont wont to say this the wrong waytheyre always going to be voting against something.
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So you know thats the hardcore. Weve done surveys there is always the one-third no. Thats pretty muchyoure not going to be ableI wouldnt say not be able to change those peoples minds. They are just there and thats what they are going to vote for. But I would say, generally speaking, if you work the program right, thats kind of the voting distribution youve got.
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WM: Im just thinking about, some people would think aboutyou know private interests, like beachfront development, or something. They would want support or permission for that as opposed to a public park sort of thing. I was just wondering
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BS: I dont think I follow what youre saying.
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WM: Well itsand other people Ive talked to there areI guess this goes back to one of the people I interviewed in Hillsborough County who talked about property rights and he said, This is my property I can do with it what I want too. Public development that infringes on my private property is something Im opposed to. So I was just wondering, you talked about the support for the public property, the trails system here in Pinellas County. And the development interests; I suppose, was that something that was a counter force for that?
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BS: Well it probably has a lot to do with communication and understanding. I think is where I see. For instance, on the east side of the county were doing another trail on the Progress Energy property. We have a lease with Progress Energy for ninety-nine years to build a trail there.
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And therefore what youre dealing with when your dealing with new trails is your dealing with community impact. Do people think this is a good idea? Now we had the benefit of having the Pinellas Trail in, with a history to it. So therefore it was due to the benefit you can show that it works. There werent crime issues and the value of land was good. The properties had more quickly if you were near the trail, things like that.
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However in the new areas, however, generally found that for instance, development interests want to hook on to the trail and actually build part of it that effects them. So if anything its been more of that positive side and actually been good. Because when you think about it a trail is not an expensive thing to build as opposed to building a road. (laughs) Thats something to think about if you were a developer.
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But also there is the amenity and the benefits that you can get from it. You can promote this as something of a selling feature. So on that eastern side of the county weve got several developers that want to sit down with us and find out how they can actually build part of the trail for us and that sort of thing.
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Im saying trail stuff, this other thing is the same way. There are all kinds of amenities that you deal with bike-pedestrian, just gathering places. We updated ourwe have a countywide transportation impact fee ordinance. Which is pretty much uncommon. Because typically its jurisdiction-to-jurisdiction, but almost twenty years ago, now, we establishedwhen the requirement came inand again from that managed growth actwe set up a transportation impact fee. Used our countywide MPO program to put it together, cause we had everybody at the table, all of the jurisdictions.
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And came up with one impact fee, so there is a chart where how much you pay for a single-family house versus an apartment versus a shopping center will be the same, no matter which jurisdiction youre in. Its all calculated the same.
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The reason I mentioned that, so we had in place therefore a countywide ordinance that MPO was the custodian of. Then all the new thinking about livable communities, with an emphasis on other ways to move around besides behind the wheel of an automobile, that we started realizing that we were doing an update every two years. Every two years we had to update the transportation impact fee ordinance. So what we did with that update set up a special committee of citizens and developers to look at that update, how you could respond to livable community things.
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And so what we developed then was a different approach to the impact fee. You still had all of the typical requirements, but you could also get credit for doing sidewalks, landscaping on the sidewalks. You could do trail work. Also how you could do connectivity from your project to other projects so that you wouldnt have to get out, get in your car, go out of the parking lot, go onto the road, go down three blocks and then go back in again. Like that, in a car.
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Youd get credit for doing connections, walking and pedestrian and bicyclingwhatever connections between your project. Youd actually get impact fee credit for that. It got a little bit of a challenge legally with us to work with attorneys because there were other things like gathering places, which also lend themselves to having people outside walking. Those were some of the things we couldnt give the developer credit for, but then we were also looking at concurrency is also another tool and then also just basically requiring a developer to do it because its a good idea. So out of that impact fee update, we developed those three initiatives.
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One was, the impact fee ordinance was updated. Where you could get credit as a developer for doing non-automobile improvements. You could also go identify those things which werent eligible for the impact fee, then we also had concurrency on the chart, which said some things you could do through a concurrency procedure, and get a sign-off to go forward with your development. The third was thered be some things for you to do for any development to be pedestrian friendly, as an example. So had that in place as well.
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That was like a couple of years ago, now. We put that in and that was like the other leg of the stool. Beside us building things ourselves on the public side, and then development over here. It actually made it come tied together.
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Because how many times have you gone by somewhere and youve got a sidewalk in front of a development and there is no way to get from the sidewalk into the development? You have to walk through a parking lot at best. But there isnt any provision to get to the front door of the building. So thats what youre dealing with, so its kind of ramped up quite a bit over time thats now been viewed as a model ordinance and weve sent it around to a lot of other jurisdictions.
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Because it wasnt easy to do. If youre trying to do something different the pressure is to not do that. The attorneys usually pointing out you cant do it because there is no precedent for it. (laughs) You know, those kind of things. But weve now got it in place and now we can work in it and improve on it.
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WM: Okay. I just want to make sure I understand you, youre using your powers of planning to influence the developers to make things more publicly accessible or moving away from automobiles and encouraging
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BS: Well there are two things. I understand what youre saying. Youre putting the planning creditability in to say this is a good idea. Even that alone would work, because it means this is supported by government. But in addition to that were saying and if you do it on the development side well not only support you with approved site plan or approve project, we actually can give you some credit. Instead of having to pay a fee for this, you can do this.
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It became actually kind of sophisticated because one of the things we found, as an example, instead of the developer payinglets saya 2,500 dollar impact fee, which they write a check for and then its basically out of their development. Meaning its just a cost of their development. If he took that same 2,500 dollars and invested it in infrastructure around the site, to make the site more pedestrian attractive, it then becomes an asset to them as opposed to something that was paid out, like a cost.
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So to answer your question the planning support was a good idea, but also from the other side, the development interests they could see the value of it, thought this makes sense to us. Thats why having the developer sitting at the table to put this package together kind of works. Because in the beginning they were saying, We dont want to do anything new and extra thats going to cost us. But when they realize that procedure, they could have a credit procedure to do something that, even on the development side, they could see the benefit of it.
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So I guess Im saying it was part doing things, coming up with things that the developer gets credit form but also from the planning side, trying to find ways that the community can do things to further what they want. The community meaning the developers and the citizens and everybody at the table, hopefully.
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WM: Yeah because it does seem like the developers would view these plans as increasing costs and difficulty for them. You mentioned that the land use attorney would say, There is no precedent for this. Tell me about the role of land use attorneys in the planning process.
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BS: Theyre pretty much going to be the conservative ones to say, You can do this you cant do that. It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, which is a little bit of a challenge. So, I would say some jurisdictions will strictly adhere to it. If an attorney says you cant do this, they wont do it. Others will take that as a device and proceed forward.
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Im not sure if it limits planning or just keeps it correct. Sometimes it limits you because there are some things youd like to do and want to do for the community, you cant do them because the attorney working with you said no. And yet in the next jurisdiction over, the attorney would have said yes.
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So thats probably when the overall body of knowledge moves forward in this sort of ad-hoc way. Meaning that eventually that all becomes oneif enough differentif jurisdictions are doing some different decisions, eventually it gets thrown in the pot and something moves forward, maybe a combination of those in terms of the body planning knowledge.
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So the attorneys are part of it, but I dont think its just black and white, that whatever they say goes and then you dont go in that direction. Because, typically the attorney is giving you opinion based upon precedent and things done in the past. So, if you try and do something new or cutting edge, youre generally are not going to have the attorney comfortable with it. In this case, say on the impact fee thing, they were not wanting to do this that and the other thing. Were several things they didnt like about what we were doing.
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We had to then, put it on hold get with the CUTR Groupin USF and do a national evaluation of this that and the other. We did find some examples of almost like what were doing. We used that to develop a comfort level for our attorneys. Saying, Look you could do this. You could do that. What were talking about is slightly like that. A little bit similar to it. So you can edge forward a little bit, without going into specifics on that.
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But I think thats what you do is you take these little baby steps forward as a profession, based upon someone does something new here. Then everybody else does something 25 percent new, from thatas a group.
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WM: Okay. But before I forget you mentioned the CUTR Group at USF?
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BS: Yeah, okay. I know I cantCenter for Urban Transportation Research, something like that.
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WM: Okay.
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BS: Theyre an institute that operates out of the University of South Florida. Our MPO Program that was running with this, were wanting to have a readily available consultant, to help us, because were in the middle of this project. Well CUTR, if you tap into them you didnt have to use the consultant selection procedure methods where you have to choose threego through advertising and selecting three and all of that. You could just contact them directly as the MPO. Also they had an expertise in what were dealing with. So we were able to get them engaged in just a matter of weeks to keep our program going.
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WM: Okay. But you talked about, you know, getting your plans accepted. So Im thinking you take your plans before the Board of County Commissioners, right?
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BS: Yes.
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WM: And they are the ones who say Yes, no?
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BS: Yes.
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WM: So tell me about working with the Board of County Commissioners.
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BS: You generally find that you work with them at two levels. One as a board, for your appearing before them in a public hearing or a work shop getting readings from them. You also work with them on a one-on-one basis, where different might have more interest than others in specialty areas. So thats also part of the process, but what you also find is that the county commission areand its the same as the city commissiontheyre your policy board thats accountable to the public.
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So on the planning side, what weve always found we had to do is you have to come up with things and work with things that you know would work with the board and be acceptable to them, because theyre accountable to the public. Theyre not going to vote for something that isnt supportable by the public.
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And so some people view that as political. But my own personal philosophy is thats kind of part of the process. Thats what they are elected for, so its not really political. Its just that that is how you get your policy decided. So I more view it as policy. And that changes. Right now things are very conservative in respect to development. Elective officials, feeling highly accountable for how development works in the community, it cant be just rampantly just approved not matter what. There is a lot more accountability in respect to that in the public. And because the publics concerned about it the elected should be. So thats your atmosphere now.
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Now Im not sure if it was ever drastically different but you would haveyou could look at ten years ago, lets say, and probably have a lot more willingness to be approving things, that now wouldnt be approved. There is a lot more concern about density and impact. Thats kind of like this statewide trend now, with like this Hometown Democracy thing. But its got to deal with that citizen base and what their views are andI would actually think a couple of trend things Ive noticed would be that I think the public would be more concerned about development in their communities than in the past.
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As a result of that, in a short period of time they become more educated about what they need to know to be engaged. They are, sort of, paying attention from year to year whats going on. Therefore your elected official and the rest of us are a lot more accountable for what were doing. You cant just explain something and everybodys, Oh, I didnt know that. And you proceed to do what you wanted to do.
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Now they understand what youre talking about and then theyll say, We still dont agree with that. Whatever it is. Or, You should do this. Why dont you do this? So I think there is a lot more of that going on. Thats probably the basis of a lot of this referendum thinking about tying into planning. I just kind of view that as a challenge for the planning profession to figure out, How do you get ahead of that?
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So how do you really find out what people are thinking? Not just going into a public hearing or workshop and saying, This is what we think you think. But figuring out a way where it works, because I actually think also people arent opposed to development or anything. But they may not be supportive of what a developers development is. Thats probably the difference. Ive heard people say, over and over, We dont mind this property developed but we have an opinion about how it would happen. You know like that.
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So if you dont get ahead of that, there could be no development. People think thats all there is either you develop, or there is no development. I think thats probably whereI would hope that the development community works with on. Because they have taken a very non-negotiable position, you know, You did this before. You need to do this now. kind of thing. And the public just doesnt buy that any more. Therefore the elected officials arent able to vote for that. Thats probably, I would say, one of the things in the future. The development community kind of being more reasonable with what theyre pushing us into. Im saying it that way because thats the way I sometimes see it.
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WM: Well it does seem, based on my limited research and observations that the county commissioners often operate anonymously. The publics attention is more focused on state and national issues. Or thats what is in the press. People will discovertheyll come home from work and a sign in the lot next to them that announces something. Only then do they get involved in public planning.
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BS: Whats interesting is, now what you have, for instance up in the area where I live, you would have the Ozona community all very focused on an initiative they put together themselves. And they are working with the county on an overlay there. But their thinking is this is not only good for Ozona, they would then like to see other communities doing the same thing. And they are willing to have some of the people from that community go to other communities to help them do the same thing. So its not all aboutit used to be about Well, I saw a sign next door and Im going to beand I need to be engaged because I saw re-zoning.
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People now see that whats down the road somewhere, another community, also affects them. And they are willing to be just engaged in that as well as the nextdoor neighbor. I think thats the more modern situation were dealing with.
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WM: So the public is more, youd say, that the public is more engaged?
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BS: Yes, definitely. More engaged and also more informed. I think the planning people that dont take that into account would be then off the mark when they get to the city commission or the county commission. Are making recommendations then theyve had some pretty intelligent public explaining what their views are and youve got to have to take that into account. You cant just write them off as not being informed or a NIMBY [Not In My Back Yard].
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Its kind of interesting. I actually think the term NIMBY is becoming not a relevant term because the NIMBY, theyre trying to say that NIMBY would be like Hometown Democracy. Yet, if you think about it, its so broad you cant call it NIMBY anymore. Its hard to say, Well hes only concerned about his next door neighbor is trying to do. Now when the guy is also concerned about down the other side of the city or the county, you cant call that NIMBY. (laughs)
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WM: Well, its kind of not in my back yard by extension, because what happens way down the road will effect whats
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BS: It has a different meaning when you say not in my community. If you think about it, its got a whole differentit sounds much more enlightened, or something. Which is kind of whats going on.
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Of course it affectsif a guy has a problem, or a woman has a problem with the next-door neighbor thing, well, else is watching that. Even the city commissioner or the county commissioner, or the general public are going to have a hard time getting engaged in that. But if its broader discussion then everybody is into it.
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WM: Well I dont want to put words into your mouth but it seems like youre pleased by that, by more public involvement. Is that a correct assumption on my part?
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BS: Yeah. That was the reason I got into planning in the first place. I always felt that you wanted to plan for what the people wanted. What you tried to do was sit with the community and figure out where they are trying to go and develop a plan for that. That, for me, I think its welcome. Its a big challenge because then youve then got to figure out what this room full of people want to do? And youve got to figure that out knowing that there is going to be many different views both before and after the discussion. Not everyones going toyoure never going to deal with 100 percent of something. You kind of hope you can kind of pull it together. But thats what planning is supposed to be.
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WM: Well that brings up a question I was going to save til the end, but if you could, and maybe now would be a good time to do it, but tell me how you got into planning? What attracted you to it to you and the training did you go through?
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BS: Okay. I started out going into college as engineering and moved into physics. So I would up with a bachelors degree from Florida State in physics. As I was graduating I was looking at what to do. Whether to pursue the physics, in terms of a Masters or a Ph.D. Whether to go out into the field and apply that or do something else.
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And I started looking at planning as something that. I was interviewing and found that when I was interviewing with a physics background that they were only interested in technical things you did. You were viewed as an egghead, or just notany of the human aspect. That started making me nervous, because I also had jobs that were technical jobs where I saw people had changed over time and became more technical, even that started out well rounded and became more technical.
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And so I though, well that didnt sound very good. So I went and looked at planning and did an internship in planning, before I went to the planning school, and found that it was much more based on communication and working with people and that side of things. I also saw, with planning that you had technical parts to it where you didnt have to leave behind what I had already learned.
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So I thought that would really be pretty cool to start working with the communities and kind of, sort of fulfilling that option, helping people out. Where if I had stuck with physics or something it would have been very narrow and clearly defined. Based on what I was doing only and that was it.
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So the more I got into the planning the more I reinforced. So I got through a lot of the planning courses in the planning program what were focused on community type things. But I also found that I never left behind the physics part, especially when Im in the transportation area, they have all of these computer models. After an hours worth of explaining and detailing, everyone is pretty much snowed in to whats going on and Im still there. (both laugh)
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BS: Im not snowed. So it has a benefit to it. I can get past the technical stuff and get to what really is a more meaningful decision-making, whatever that might be.
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You knowwhat you put in the computer you get out, you get the influence of that kind of computer. So the technical parts are only a tool, theyre not supposed to direct everything. So my technical background is useful that way.
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WM: You said you went to planning school? Where was that?
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BS: Florida State.
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WM: Okay.
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BS: I was, at the time I was graduating with a physics degree at Florida State. They were establishing a planning program. It was about one year old. So I just enrolled there and stuck with it. It was a two-year program.
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WM: Well it does seem like this would be a good place to combine the scientific and the social aspects of your
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BS: It does and Im not going to say you couldnt also do that with some other professions. Ive been, for instance Id work sometimes with people in engineering. Its really refreshing when you get with some engineering people, who have that same approach of working with designing a project that people want to do.
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You have other engineers come in with their big thick manual and they are going to tell people what it is. So it is not just planning profession that has that reward or opportunity to work with people. Because Ive been in the planning side, where youd havethey would come in and know what they wanted to design for the community and it didnt matter what the community thought. They knew this was what the community would like, if they just understood him better, you know that kind of thing.
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WM: So when you finished up at FSU did you come right here to Clearwater?
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BS: Actually what it was, before I went to planning school I went over to Hillsborough County and had a job there for the summer, as a planning intern. So I kind of saw what planning was about. Then halfway through the planning program there is what they call an internship, during the summer. I interned at the regional planning council down here, the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council. Then when I graduated, my first year out was a year with the regional planning council. Then I got a chance to come here, as the division head for planning.
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One of the things I found when I was at the regional planning was that it was a good overall view of things, but I wasnt sure if I was going to be gaining more skills after the first year. It looked like I was going to be doing an update of what I did the first year. Where if you were involved in the local program you were engaged in what was happening. I realized thatsI mentioned earlier about wanting to work with the committees. When I was in the regional basis I wasnt able to be as engaged in the community as I wanted.
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So I kind of realized that your experience would be cumulative at the local level, while your experience at the regional basis would be repetitive. You wouldnt get an opportunity for a new experience. Once you had figured out how to do everything youd just do it over again. Im not saying that critically, I was just looking for another level of engagement.
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WM: You wanted more of a challenge and opportunity.
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BS: A hands-on kind of feel.
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WM: So you came here in 1970?
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BS: Nineteen seventy.
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WM: Well, this is a big question, but how have you seen this community, I guess Pinellas County, change in those thirty-six years?
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BS: Yes, quite a bit, though I think its all been good. Im not going to say its all because of planning, but there was quite a bit of that. You can see a lot of the things I wouldve hoped we would preserve, we did preserve. We probably did, fairly early on but some density limits in and somethings like that, so even though people feel its congestion and how much development weve had double that very easily. So, I kind of think that the countys gone a long way in terms of its development and its been an emphasis on quality of life all along, which I feel pretty comfortable about.
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Interestingly though, I would think back onthere were some initiatives that I would have beenor we would have been proposing and working with. Im not sure if we did it, it would have been a good idea or not. Ill give you an example. In 1972 we had a proposal for a monorail in the county, a complete loop. It didnt go anywhere. So you wonder, if we had been successful in promoting that then what would the county have looked like? Im not sure it would have been good because those things do promote density and things like that.
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So you sometimeskind of realize what youre running with, you have to re-think. Ill give you an example. In the mid-seventies [1970s], because I was involved in transportation as well, I was the staff director for, among my normal responsibilities as planning director, and so on as the expressway authority. And so we have a major expressway referendum in our county to build a north-south expressway.
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And then I became one of the key people in the speakers bureau, to go out and present this thing. It was voted down 8-to-1. So you can imagine, it wasnt a very pleasant experience being on the speakers bureau, cause you could see the vote before it was going to happen. But that really influenced the countys future development. That meant we were not going to be doing toll roads or expressways through the county.
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Then they said, Were going to focus on US-19 and the existing corridor and make that work. Thats going to be it. Therefore I was out there promoting the idea of this whole expressway program, but then what you have to do re-think where you are going. So as a professional, you dont keep talking more about expressways. You say, Okay, I understand where we are. Well move to that.
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When we did thein 1990, when we put the Pinellas Trail in, or the late eighties [1980s], I wasnt really sure it that was a good or not, you know? It was just things, like the width of the trail. It was going to be fifteen feet wide. I was thinking, That sounds more like a road. It should be narrower, like ten feet wide. I now know that fifteen [feet] is really good because it minimizes conflicts. I also could see the value of a major proponent of the trail. Way back in the beginning I was kind of on the fence about it. So as a planner I sort of adjusted.
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Again, with that community engagement you say, Okay, this is where were really going. It isnt like I had a major philosophical change. Its more that I just better understood directional changes and think thats where the planner, more than anybody else, has tokind of have their eyes and ears open with that and be willing to be flexible and adjust things and to help out with this new direction. How do you get there? As opposed to still pointing out to people that it was a mistake, because its different from before or something like that. Its a real challenge to be open and understand what these new things are, so as to help them. I must say not all new things are good, you know, you have to work with that and know what, you know, when to make those kinds of judgements.
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WM: In talking about how the county has changed overall, one of the things I read is that there were, initially a lot of places for people to spend the winter here and I guess retirement communities, but the county was moving more towards high-wage industry, or something like that. Am I understanding that correctly?
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BS: Well, its really hard toyeahwe, for instance in the seventies [1970s] we were still a major dairy producer, as an example. We still had a lot of citrus. And so over time the development interests removed that. But at the time we also had major corporations like Honeywell and industries like that. What happens is, over time, which is something not to many people realize, we have had a focus on tourism and always have. But weve also had a lot of industries in the county. Theyre not noticeable because they are, like, clean industries. So people dont notice them that much.
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Were still like some of the major Ive forgotten what categories they are but were still, like, number one in manufacturing employment of certain kinds of technologies. People dont think of that in Pinellas County. Weve got a whole industrial belt in the middle of the county. Most of our vacant land, yet to be developed, is in the middle of the county, industrial-commercial land. Which is kind of interesting in that your future is still there in terms of the engine you want to run it with.
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01:01:18.2
But I would say we still continue to be really interested in industry. Because we kind ofwhen I mentioned the whole idea about the element live, work and play, the emphasis is on good jobs. There was a debate a while ago about Are we doing that? Are we doing that at the expense of the tourist industry? Id probably say, not. Thats not really going to go away. But its doesnt have to be an-either-or proposition. Although some people think, What are you trying to promote? Where would you put your promoting money? But you dont necessarilythe money used to promote tourism you dont necessarily promote industry the same way, so Im not sure the two compete.
192
01:01:56.8
But, I think now with our development pressure, there was pressure to say, Re-zone industrial lands to residential and commercial. We just recently established a policy saying that were not going to do that. It has to be highly justified if youre going to move from industrial to something else. You cant putin our county there is no more elbowroom to put in new industrial lands so youve got to hold on to what youve got.
193
01:02:24.1
The pressure was, that there is industrial land that can be used for industry. However, if theyve got the option of converting it or selling it for high density residential or for Wal Marts and things, then the price of that land is not in the industrial category the price of that land is higher in these other opportunities. What we realized was, if we say its off the table for those changes then you make that land more reasonably priced over time, back to the industrial use that you want. So there are a lot of dynamics that have been going on over the past couple of years in our county on that. Because we want to keep industries and we want to add industries.
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01:03:2.5
WM: You say there is pressure to change the industrial zoned land to residential. Who applies that pressure?
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01:03:13.2
BS: Two groups, the property owners, that want to make more money off of the land, and obviously the people that are in the condo industrial development business, the Wal-Mart community. Not just them but the commercial people that want to promote that. So youve got an established industry of developing things and that sometimes a property owner will be sitting there, thinking, Id like to do this. And theyll come in and say, Yeah, but youll get much more, a better return for your land if you do this that and the other thing.
196
01:03:44.3
So youve got this development industry group that will always be pushing for the highest and best use, in their mind, of whatever the land is. And its usually not industrial. You knowyou can just do more and sell more. Therefore if you have it wide open and you keep saying, Whatever you want to do with that property. Well have a mixed-use thing where you can do industry, commercial or industrial. You know youre probably not going to have much industry, because thats not a revenue producer, compared to the others. And yet for the overall community its probably the biggest revenue producer because its thats where your jobs are for the long haul, for the overall community benefit. But for the property owner its not and for the developer its not.
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01:04:20.4
WM: So then again that gets back to public versus private interests. I just want to make sure I understand you but in looking at re-zoning the industrial land to other uses, the planning commission is saying, No, keep it zoned for industrial. And the others, the development industry, is saying, No, change the zoning for residential or commercial. So all of these people are talking to the county Board of Commissioners, right?
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01:04:51.5
BS: Yes.
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WM: So, tell me
200
01:04:54.8
BS: So what happened was, we realized that was the pressure that was out there. We realized that the benefit to the to the industrial land was a community benefit. Therefore we needed a community wide policy on that, about preserving it. Unless it had some overall benefit if you were going to change it. But it had to be a benefit, not just to the property owner but, or the people that proposed something. It had to be a benefit to the community. It wasnt to say wed never re-zone it. We just said the tests had to be a little bit higher that, oh, We want to do this.
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01:05:22.8
It had to do with years ago we had a county commissioner, who then went to DCA.
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01:06:2.2
That I think is a good test and procedure. Or the other way, you can just see it as a trap to get him to, Well okay, we cant deny your project because, you know, such and such impact on the road. What happens is, I think the one downside I would say in the whole Managed Growth emphasis on concurrency of facilities and infrastructure is that planning gets trapped into a thought process of impacts, evaluations and mitigations only. Youre not looking at whats the appropriate designation for the property in terms of community interest.
203
01:06:37.4
Youre looking at, Can they solve the traffic problem theyve created? Is there enough water for them? and all of this. By the time you get in the DRI process, the Development and Regional Impact, its all about that, the development of regional impact. So if you can get ayou have a property owner goes in, does the major evaluation of their project; identifies all the solutions for all of their impacts then its presumed you could approve it. Even if the uses had nothing to do with what the community was interested in to begin with.
204
01:07:5.6
So, I think thats whats been the downside of the Managed Growth Act. I think that is the current issue that people now have is, theyre more interested in what are the uses of in the community; whats good for the community? Not just the impacts alone, but you knowIs it good to have this shopping center here when weve got one over there? Or even if the roads are good all around it, even if you put it in; would you really need two shopping centers within a mile of each other? You know?
205
01:07:29.7
Those kinds of things are things that I think people are more interested in talking about. Theyre much obsessed in the details of planning in the past last ten, twenty years and the detailed process and procedures of evaluations and looking at impacts. Like I said a developer comes in and he just goes through his checklist of ten or twenty things and says, I solved this problem. I solved that problem. So whats the planners problem? You know?
206
01:07:52.9
WM: Also that gets back to property rights where, John Doe, who owns this property which is currently zoned for industrial use, but could greatly increase his profits by re-zoning it for residential or commercial. Its like his advantage versus the communitys benefit.
207
01:08:20.4
BS: Right. But the interesting thing is its been a misnomer, a little bit, about property rights. He therefore, has the ability to develop his land. You havent taken anything from him; the re-zoning is not a property issue, per se. If you get into golf courses it gets a little bit tricky about if youve got a standard use it just means he wants to make more of the property.
208
01:08:45.7
WM: That was the question I put to him, Where do your property rightsthe influence of your property extends beyond its boundaries. Where does one persons property rights start and anothers stop?
209
01:09:2.0
BS: Yeah. I understand and thats when you get the community interest coming into play. Sometimes its not even adjacent. It could be whats happening on that property may have the community interest attached to it and typically does. But especially if youve got adjacent impacts. But the thing about community planning is its not about the impacts alone. Its, What does the community want there? What is good for the community? And it may be something that the property owner may or may not have wanted.
210
01:09:32.4
But you kind of have to work the two together. I dont want to emphasize whats good for the community has to work exactly. Its got to be a blend between the two. It usually does work that well, but the thing is you just cant do the highest and best use. Youve got to do whats good for the community, match that against the highest and best use.
211
01:09:54.0
WM: I mean, its a complex issue. Where does one persons rights stop and another ones begin? Its hard to answer thatone of the things I read is that problem around here is affordable housing, for people who work here. Do you think that will continue to be a significant issue?
212
01:10:19.5
BS: Yes, I think it will be. And I think some change in the thinking is going to start to occur. But it has to do with the whole economics and it has to do with property values going higher and therefore raising the price of land and development. But there are other counter balancing things to that. I definitely think that affordable housing will be an issue in the future. But it could be the idea of weve had mobile home parks that some people would like to eliminate. And yet, if you eliminate them that is affordable force, not just for the retired people but for anybody in any age group.
213
01:10:53.9
And the issue was, We want to eliminate them because of hurricane threats. But then the other side of the coinweve now just recently released a report that shows how the modern versions of manufactured housing and mobile units actually withstand storms better than houses that are built on site. So that makes a very affordable option to look at. Because its using different materials that are cheaper. You know? Concretes the most expensive thing. Woodeven though the whole bottom is dropping out of the market on that. So depending on what materials you use, and are you in an inflated market or a depressed market? I think there are a lot of options.
214
01:11:37.7
But affordable housing is, for us, probably more of a challenge than for some of the others, because we dont have the hinterlands that are cheaper. Unless we sort of get our act together in figuring out to maintain within, and its got to do a lot with existing housing stock and, again, replacing old homes and doing things like this. Some people have criticized the idea that we can approve a project and require affordable housing as part of it. And people have said Thats not fair because one percentage of housing is subsidizing the other percentage of housing in the development project. SoI dont know. Its a complicated
215
01:12:15.3
WM: Well thats what makes it interesting.
216
01:12:17.2
BS: It does.
217
01:12:17.9
WM: If it was too simple anyone could do it.
218
01:12:20.4
BS: True.
219
01:12:20.9
WM: What do you see for the future?
220
01:12:23.8
BS: Can I answer that question after I make a pit stop?
221
01:12:26.8
WM: Sure. Let me put this on
222
01:12:29.2
WM: Okay, wed asked about what do you see for the future in Pinellas County?
223
01:12:35.2
BS: I see, probably much more emphasis on our existing population and our existing uses and how to improve them. I dont see us focused, like some other areas are, on future growth and how to deal with that. Its going to be more on quality of life things; providing things that the existing population really wants. But also focused on, like, better jobs, preserving the environment. Putting facilities in that the people really want.
224
01:13:7.3
Also, probably, much more emphasis on listening to the population and working with them. The reason I mention that is if you then got this strong focus on your existing, that means your current community, which means youve got to be listening more to that. Where if you were in an emerging growth area, with all vacant land, its a little more, Who is the constituency for that? You listen to it, its a little less to be heard, so to speak. I mean youve the environmental groups and so on, but a higher level of accountability if youre built out, like we are and then you have development pressures in areas that are already developed. Established communities and established interests and uses and so on like that. So, I see much more focus on listen to the public and working with them on things and hopefully making the county and even better place than it is now.
225
01:14:0.1
WM: I meanyou talk about the county is not completely built out, but there is not a whole lot of room to expand into, so they would have to sort of re-define, re-develop whats here. Is that
226
01:14:15.3
BS: Well what I think what it is that, in Florida and other parts of our country weve become focused on development as absolutely necessary. Yet if you look at the history of development in other areas, there are a lot of areas that havent had a population growth and yet have a vibrant economy. So there is more to it than just bulldozers and putting buildings in. There are some other things that come in and make your economy work. I think thats whatyouve got other industries that have jobs producing things that arent necessarily concrete. So I think there is some of that wed probably get a lot more into.
227
01:14:54.5
Another thing, though that I want to mention that is in the Planning to Stay conclusion was that even though Pinellas County had an established population future, in terms of not expanding. Even more so its important that we are a major regional player in things and a player with the entire region in terms of what goes on and what happens.
228
01:15:18.8
Because not only do we, to go through everybody else to get to Pinellas County, we just have vested interest in what the overall economy is, not to be left behind with all of that. So we want to be engaged with what future jobs there are, because people might live in the other counties and then come here. And there are still those people who live here and work somewhere else. So its sort of being engaged in the regional situation, probably even more than in the past. Now we have a vested interest.
229
01:15:44.3
Because when you become a mature economy you sort of have a lot of external influences that affect you. Thats what were conscious of, so we want to be more engaged regionally. Being a regional leader entails everything from rail and transportation and other subjects like environmental protection.
230
01:16:0.6
WM: Theres been a lot of talk about developing mass transit, at least over in Hillsborough County and like you said, Pinellas would certainly be influenced.
231
01:16:14.8
BS: Oh yeah. In fact, one of the most obvious corridors to deal with, is we have the CSX rail line. It goes from Hillsborough County and loops through Pinellas. Its sort of circuitous when it enters the county, but by the time it hits downtown Clearwater, from Clearwater down to St. Pete its a diagonal straight line. Its the quickest way to get from Clearwater to St. Pete as the crow flies. One of the corridors that makes the most sense rail-wise, in the region, is the Clearwater to St. Pete line. And so therefore, when the question came up weve pretty much have refocused our interest to actually look at that corridor and talking to CSX about what to do with it.
232
01:16:56.6
Also we were talking about doing it in the context of a regional group, a regional authority, knowing that as you look at rail, its something that needs to be looked at on a regional basis. But if it doesnt happen regionally at least wed want to do it ourselves. But think wed want to do it, again that whole thing about wanting to be part of the region, a regional leader, is that were willing to do whatever it is that works with everybody else. But it sure makes some sense, in our future, to be finding some other way to move besides the automobile.
233
01:17:25.7
WM: Oh absolutely. I could start talking about the car now and not stop with out repeating myself. And so we wont do that. Ive been throwing questions at you for the past hour and a half or so, is there anything you want to comment on that I havent asked about? I know there is a lot of territory to cover, but
234
01:17:44.6
BS: No, I would really say youve covered it pretty well. Probably the only fill-in-the-gaps comment I would make is that therefore, in terms of future development, what we see is in the industrial belt area, in the middle of the county. Also, in our downtown areas where were trying to focus new development and the rest. The advantage to that is being able to do it on livable community basis. Because your downtowns are where you have the non-automobile focus. But if youre going to increase densities there, you need to make sure youve got pedestrian movement, trail connections, transit and things like that. Therefore, I think our focus of the future is going to be that. And then, how to come up with some alternative ways to move around besides the automobile travel. So I think youve pretty well covered the gamut.
235
01:18:29.7
WM: Okay. Again thank you for taking the time to talk with me. And I always remind people that the information youve shared with will be deposited in the Special Collections of the University [of South Floridas] Library. I also have a release form that I have to ask you to sign, so that people can have access to this interview.
236
01:18:47.6
BS: Thats fine.
237
01:18:48.4
WM: Okay. And Ive been photographing everyone Ive interview. Do you mind if I take your picture?
238
01:18:52.4
BS: No problem. Sure.
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01:18:53.1
WM: Okay. Great. Let me stop this thing.



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C O P Y R I G H T N O T I C E T h i s O r a l H i s t o r y i s c o p y r i g h t e d b y t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a L i b r a r i e s O r a l H i s t o r y P r o g r a m o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d o f T r u s t e e s o f t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a C o p y r i g h t 2 0 0 7 U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a A l l r i g h t s r e s e r v e d T h i s o r a l h i s t o r y m a y b e u s e d f o r r e s e a r c h i n s t r u c t i o n a n d p r i v a t e s t u d y u n d e r t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e F a i r U s e F a i r U s e i s a p r o v i s i o n o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o p y r i g h t L a w ( U n i t e d S t a t e s C o d e T i t l e 1 7 s e c t i o n 1 0 7 ) w h i c h a l l o w s l i m i t e d u s e o f c o p y r i g h t e d m a t e r i a l s u n d e r c e r t a i n c o n d i t i o n s F a i r U s e l i m i t s t h e a m o u n t o f m a t e r i a l t h a t m a y b e u s e d F o r a l l o t h e r p e r m i s s i o n s a n d r e q u e s t s c o n t a c t t h e U N I V E R S I T Y O F S O U T H F L O R I D A L I B R A R I E S O R A L H I S T O R Y P R O G R A M a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a 4 2 0 2 E F o w l e r A v e n u e L I B 1 2 2 T a m p a F L 3 3 6 2 0

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L a nd U s e O r a l H i s t or y P r oj e c t P a t e l C e nt e r f or G l oba l S ol ut i ons U ni ve r s i t y of S ou t h F l o r i da I nt e r vi e w w i t h: M r B r i a n S m i t h I nt e r vi e w e d by: W i l l i a m M a ns f i e l d L oc a t i on: T a m pa F l or i da D a t e : O c t obe r 5, 2006 T r a ns c r i be d by: W m M a ns f i e l d E di t e d by: W m M a ns f i e l d A udi t E di t e d by: K yl e B r a df or d B ur ke A udi t E di t D a t e : F e br ua r y 5 2008 F i na l E di t by: N i c ol e C ox F i na l E di t D a t e : F e br ua r y 7 2008 Wi l l i am M an s f i e l d : T hi s i s B i l l M a ns f i e l d f r om t h e U ni ve r s i t y of S out h F l or i da s S pe c i a l C ol l e c t i ons a nd t h e P a t e l C e nt e r f or G l oba l S ol ut i ons a nd I m t a l ki ng t o M r B r i a n S m i t h on O c t obe r 5 2006 W e r e he r e i n t he pl a nni ng of f i c e s ? B r i an S m i t h : Y e s t he C ount y P l a nni ng D e pa r t m e nt f o r P i ne l l a s C ount y. W M : P i n e l l a s or P i ne e l l a s ? B S : P i e ne l l a s W M : A l l r i ght P i ne l l a s C ount y. A nd M r S m i t h w e a l w a ys ge t pe opl e t o s t a r t of f by ha vi ng t he m s t a t e t he i r na m e a nd t e l l i ng us w he n t he y w e r e bor n a nd w he r e t he y w e r e bor n. B S : I a m B r i a n S m i t h. I w a s bor n A ugus t 29 1942 I w a s bor n i n L ondon, E ngl a nd. I w a s r e gi s t e r e d a s a n A m e r i c a n C i t i z e n, by m y m ot he r w he n I w a s bor n W M : U m huh. B S : T he n w e c a m e t o t hi s c ount r y i n 1949. W M : A nd w he r e di d you gr ow up? B S : [ I ] gr e w up i n s e ve r a l di f f e r e nt l oc a t i ons u m a l ot i n t he N e w E ngl a nd a r e a M y f a t he r w a s i n t he f ol l ow e d de f e ns e c ont r a c t s ; w hi c h w oul d onl y r un f or m a ybe t w o o r t hr e e ye a r s a nd t he n you d c ha nge l oc a t i ons S o I l i ve d i n M i c hi ga n a nd C a l i f o r ni a a nd a ga i n N e w E ngl a nd a nd a l s o i n F l o r i da [ F l o r i da ] i s pr e t t y m uc h w he r e m y f a m i l y s e t t l e d i n, i n t he e a r l y s i xt i e s W M : O ka y. A nd um t e l l m e your c ur r e nt oc c upa t i on.

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2 B S : [ M y] c ur r e nt oc c upa t i on i s I m a c ount y pl a nn e r I m w i t h t he C ount y P l a nni ng D e pa r t m e nt a nd I m t he di r e c t or of t he de pa r t m e nt I ha ve a dua l r ol e he r e I m not on l y t he c ount y pl a nni ng d i r e c t or but a l s o i n t ha t c a pa c i t y I m t he d i r e c t or of w ha t t he y c a l l t he M P O or t he M e t r opol i t a n P l a nni ng O r ga ni z a t i on, w hi c h i s t he l e a d t r a ns por t a t i on i n t he c ount y. E ve r y ur ba n a r e a i s r e qui r e d t o ha ve a n M P O a nd i n our c ount y t ha t s our de pa r t m e nt [ s e r ve s ] t ha t f unc t i on W M : O ka y. D e s c r i be i f you w i l l t he dut i e s a nd r e s pons i bi l i t i e s of t he C ount y P l a nni ng D i r e c t or B S : T he C ount y P l a nni ng D i r e c t or um w e do a l l t he g r ow t h m a na ge m e nt f o r t he c ount y, s o w e r e vi e w not onl y a l l t he de ve l opm e nt pl a ns but a c t ua l l y a l s o de ve l op t he pl a n f or t he c ount y a nd t he n r e c om m e nd i t t o t he c ount y c om m i s s i on. T he n unde r s t a t e l a w t he r e a r e a l ot of t hi ngs you ha ve t o do t o ke e p t ha t pl a n up t o da t e W e do a l l of t hos e f unc t i ons O ur de pa r t m e nt i s t he de s i gna t e d l oc a l pl a nni ng a ge nc y f or t he c ount y. T he r e f o r e w e c a r r y a l ot of t hos e f unc t i ons t ha t a r e i n t ha t S t a t e C ha pt e r 163. T he n, a l s o, be c a us e you r e t he c us t odi a n o f a l ot o f da t a a nd a na l ys i s a nd s o on um a s pa r t o f t he pl a nni ng w e ge t a l ot of ot he r j obs a nd t a s ks de a l i ng w i t h us i ng t ha t da t a a ppl yi ng t o e ve r yt hi ng f r om a nne xa t i on r e vi e w s t o pr o j e c t a nd f a c i l i t y r e v i e w s W M : O ka y a nd ( c l e a r s t hr oa t ) de ve l opm e nt w e l l m a ybe I m ge t t i ng a he a d of m ys e l f he r e but I ve done s om e r e s e a r c h a nd i t t a l ke d a bo ut t he or i gi na l pl a n f or t he c ount y w a s done i n 1979. I s t ha t c or r e c t ? B S : U m t he ba c kgr ound w a s w he n I s t a r t e d w i t h t he c ount y i n 1970 t he r e w a s a ve r y ge ne r a l i z e d pl a n t ha t w e ha d on t he w a l l I t w oul d s how w he r e f ut ur e r e s i de nt i a l [ a r e a s w e r e ] f ut ur e c om m e r c i a l [ a r e a s ] a nd i t w a s ve r y g e ne r a l T he z oni ng w a s m uc h m o r e s i t e s pe c i f i c I n f a c t t he z oni ng, I m t ol d w a s or i gi na l l y e s t a bl i s he d i n t he f i f t i e s W e ne e de d z oni ng a nd t he pr ope r t y a ppr a i s e r a s ke d e ve r ybody w ha t t he y w oul d l i ke f or t he i r z oni ng ( c huc kl e s ) I m s ur e t he r e w a s m or e t o i t t ha n t ha t bu t t ha t w a s pr e t t y m uc h how t hi ngs got s e t up. T he r e f or e t he r e w e r e a l ot o f you know a l ot o f t hi ngs w e r e e s t a bl i s he d t ha t w a y. I don t t hi nk pe opl e vi e w e d z oni ng [ t he n] t he s a m e w a y t he y do now T he n i t w a s j us t pe r m i t t i ng a us e t hi ng but t he r e w e r e n t i s s ue s a bout de ns i t y c ont r ol or t hi ngs l i ke t ha t A t t ha t t i m e t he r e s i de nt i a l t he a pa r t m e nt w a s pr e t t y m uc h w ha t e ve r you c oul d f i t on t he pr ope r t y. T he r e w e r e n t a ny d e s t i ny l i m i t s

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3 T he n t he r e w a s t he c onc e r n a bout a c t ua l l y ha vi ng c ont r ol a nd a pl a n t ha t w a s t o be f ol l ow e d. S o t he y s e t up a c ount yw i de p l a n, w i t h a s pe c i a l a c t t hr ough t he l e gi s l a t ur e j us t f or P i ne l l a s C ount y. W e a c t ua l l y ha d a pl a n a dopt e d i n 1974 t ha t w a s c ount y w i de a nd ha d t he f or c e a nd e f f e c t of l a w ; w hi c h w a s a t ot a l l y ne w c onc e pt U p t o t ha t t i m e pl a nni ng w a s a dvi s or y. I t w a s s om e t hi ng you w or ke d t ow a r d w i t h t he z oni ng. U m a l l o f a s udde n, w he n you s how e d i t on t he pl a n a s c om m e r c i a l or w ha t e ve r i t w a s t ha t s w ha t w a s t o ha ppe n. T ha t w a s a t ot a l l y ne w i de a T he ne xt ye a r [ i n 1975] t he l e gi s l a t ur e pa s s e d t he L oc a l G ove r nm e nt C om pr e he ns i ve P l a nni ng A c t t he y c a l l e d i t t he L G C P A T ha t p l a c e d t he s a m e r e qui r e m e nt t hr oughout t he s t a t e I t s a i d a ny pl a n you a dopt e d w oul d ha ve t ha t e f f e c t of l a w a nd z oni ng w oul d ha ve t o a dhe r e di r e c t l y t o i t S o i t w a s a r ound t he 74, 75 t i m e f r a m e t ha t t he r ul e s c ha nge d, not onl y f or us but a l s o f or t he r e s t of t he s t a t e W M : W e l l um ba s e d on w ha t you s a i d, p r i or t o 74 i t w a s f a i r l y l a x? B S : Y e s P r oba bl y t he pe opl e a t t he t i m e w oul d s a y i t w a s n t ne c e s s a r i l y l a x, i t w a s j us t a di f f e r e nt p r oc e dur e I t w a s a l l a bout z oni ng T he pl a n w a s n t r e a l l y a gove r ni ng i n f l ue nc e i n how de ve l opm e nt oc c ur r e d. I t w a s m o r e of a f u t ur i s t i c j us t a s or t of a dvi s or y t ype of a doc um e nt I t w a s a gui de W M : U m huh. B S : S o I don t know w he t he r i t w oul d be l a x o r not i t pr oba bl y de pe nde d on t he c om m uni t y, how m uc h i t w a s B e c a us e pe opl e ha ve a l w a ys be e n c onc e r ne d a bout w ha t s ha ppe ni ng. Y ou know t he w hol e or i gi n of z oni ng w a s ke e pi ng ne i ghbor s f r om a f f e c t i ng you a nd s om e t hi ng l i ke t ha t S o um i t s pr oba bl y a j udg e m e nt c a l l a bout how i t w a s us e d. W M : O ka y. W ha t ki nd of r e a c t i on w a s t he r e w he n i t c ha nge d? B S : I w oul d s a y i t w a s ki nd of t r a um a t i c f or m or e t he pl a nne r s t ha n i t w a s [ f or ] t he c om m uni t y. B e c a us e a l l of a s udde n w e ha d a pl a n t ha t ha d t o be f ol l ow e d e xa c t l y. I don t t hi nk w e qui t e r e a l i z e d t ha t w he n w e put i t i n t o e f f e c t how do you w or k t hi s ? N ow e ve r ybody a c c e pt s i t T he pl a n i s bl a c k a nd w hi t e you f ol l ow i t B ut ba c k t he n i t m e a nt t ha t i f you ha d s om e z oni ng de ns i t y t ha t w a s m or e t ha n w ha t t he pl a n s how e d, you c oul dn t do t ha t O r i f you ha d a pi e c e o f c om m e r c i a l pr ope r t y a nd you e ve n ha d c om m e r c i a l z oni ng, b ut t he pl a n s how e d i t a s r e s i de nt i a l t he n yo u c oul dn t r e a l l y do a nyt hi ng w i t h t he pr ope r t y c a us e i t w a s n t r e s i de nt i a l S o t he pl a nne r s w e r e t he m os t w ho ha d t o do a l ot of m a j or a dj us t m e nt a nd t hi nki ng t o de a l w i t h t ha t N ow of c our s e e ve n i n t he s t a t e w he n I s a i d t he L oc a l G ove r nm e nt C om pr e he ns i ve P l a n A c t t ha t 1975 a c t t he pl a ns t ha t c a m e i nt o e f f e c t unde r t ha t w e r e a r ound 1980 o r

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4 81. T ha t s w he n pl a nni ng i n t he s t a t e s t a r t e d r e a l l y ge t t i ng i n ge a r a nd t he pl a ns s t a r t e d r e a l l y l i ke you c oul d s e e t he y c a l l e d t he a c t t he M a na ge d G r ow t h A c t S o you, r e a l l y be f or e t ha t di dn t ha ve a M a na ge d G r ow t h A c t a t a l l Y ou j us t ha d z oni ng, l ooki ng a t a dj a c e nt us e s a nd w ho i s goi ng t o s or t of m i ni m i z e t he m os t c onf l i c t s B ut t he pl a n s t a r t e d t a l k i ng a bout t ha t you ne e d t o l ook a t t he s e ot he r e l e m e nt s of t he pl a n: r e c r e a t i on, t r a ns por t a t i on w a t e r a nd t hi ngs l i ke t ha t T he n you w oul d t he n s t a r t de ve l opi ng a pl a n ba s e d upon a l l of t hos e S o w e i n P i ne l l a s C ount y di d t he s a m e t hi ng a s ot he r pa r t s of t he s t a t e A s a n e xa m pl e i t w a s t h r o ugh t ha t pr oc e dur e t ha t w e w oul d s t a r t l ooki ng a t de ns i t y l i m i t s ba s e d upon w ha t w e c oul d do s or t of s uppor t S o w e s t a r t e d r a m pi ng dow n t he de ns i t y r e qui r e m e nt s qui t e a bi t W e d e ve n ha ve t he s e l ow de ns i t y c a t e gor i e s of one uni t a n a c r e t w o a nd a ha l f uni t s a n a c r e a m uc h l ow e r r a nge of us e s B e c a us e w e r e a l i z e d w e c oul dn t a f f or d t o c a r r y t h e popul a t i on t ha t t he z oni ng w oul d pe r m i t L i ke I m e nt i one d, you d ha ve t ypi c a l l y z oni ng w o ul d be R 1, R 2, R 4, R 4 a nd R 5. W M : A nd w ha t doe s R 1, R 2 a nd [ s o on, m e a n] ? B S : O ka y, R 1 R 2 a nd R 3 w e r e a l l s i ngl e f a m i l y z one s w i t h va r y i ng l ot s i z e s A nyt hi ng f r om s i x t hous a nd s qua r e f e e t w a s R 3, s e ve nt y f i ve hundr e d w a s R 2 a nd I t hi nk t e n t hous a nd. R 1 I t hi nk c a n t r e m e m be r e xa c t l y t he num be r i t w a s s om e t hi ng l a r ge r l i ke t e n t hous a nd, I m not qui t e s ur e T he n t hos e t ha t w e r e a l l 1 2 a nd 3, t he s i ngl e f a m i l y z one s T he n R 4 w a s a dupl e x t r i pl e x z one t ha t you pe r m i t t e d. T he n R 5 w a s t he a pa r t m e nt z one T he r e w a s no d e ns i t y s t a t e m e nt i n i t a t a l l Y ou j us t pe r m i t t e d a pa r t m e nt s a nd c ondom i n i um s or a nyt hi ng e l s e you put i n t he r e T he n, t o r ound i t a l l out t he ot he r r e s i de nt i a l z one w a s R 6, w hi c h w a s m obi l e hom e s W M : U m huh. B S : T ha t w a s pr e t t y m uc h t he c ookbook t ha t not o nl y w e us e d, but pr e t t y m uc h us e d a r ound i n a l l t he c om m uni t i e s t hr oughou t t he s t a t e a s i m i l a r num be r r a nge B ut you c oul d s e e t he r e f o r t ha t i t di dn t m a t t e r T he a pa r t m e nt ha d t o do w ha t t he m a r ke t w a nt e d, w ha t t he y t hought t he y w oul d w or k w i t h i t B ut i t c oul d be a nyt hi ng f r om a hi gh r i s e t o a t ow nhous e I t w a s j us t not t ha t t h e z oni ng di dn t l i m i t t ha t N ow t ha t s a ve r y c om m on you ve go t a l l ki nds of s pe c i f i c s a bout t ha t c a t e gor y now W M : W e l l t he pl a ns t ha t w e r e d r a w n up, how m uc h l oc a l i nput w a s t he r e I m e a n, c a us e j us t f r om he a r i ng yo u t a l k I ge t t he i m pr e s s i on t ha t pe opl e f r om t he s t a t e c a m e i n a nd a ppl i e d t he pl a n t o t he c ount y. S o how di d i t w or k?

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5 B S : O ka y. I t w a s n t a c t ua l l y t he s t a t e c om i ng i n. T he s t a t e ha d t hi s r e qui r e m e nt a nd t he l e gi s l a t ur e put i t i n pl a c e T he r e w a s ve r y l i t t l e u m um e nga ge m e nt f r om t he s t a t e s i de I t w a s e a c h l oc a l gove r nm e nt ha d t o f i gur e ou t how t o de ve l op a pl a n i n c onf or m a nc e w i t h t he s t a t e l a w A c t ua l l y, be c a us e of t he f l e xi bi l i t y of i t e ve r ybody s pl a n w oul d be qui t e di f f e r e nt H ow you di d m a na ge g r ow t h c oul d be l ooke d a t di f f e r e nt w a ys A c t ua l l y t ha t w a s w ha t t r i gge r e d t he up da t e a bout s e ve r a l ye a r s l a t e r i n t he m i de i ght i e s I t hi nk a r ound 1985 t he M a na ge d G r ow t h A c t w e nt i n I n t hi s c a s e i t s t a r t e d r e a l l y r a m pi ng up t he r e qui r e m e nt s f or w ha t a l oc a l gove r n m e nt ha d t o ha ve i n i t s pl a n. T he y s t a r t e d de ve l opi ng a l o t m or e of a s pe c i f i c c ookbook, r a t he r t ha n T hou s ha l t pl a n i t Y e s ha l l pl a n a nd do i t t he f ol l ow i ng w a y. S o t ha t s w he n you got i nt o, not j us t um de ns i t y a nd l oc a t i on r e qui r e m e nt s f o r l a nd us e s but t he n t ha t s w he n you ki c ke d i n t he c onc u r r e nc y r e qui r e m e nt s t o w he r e de ve l opm e nt c oul d not oc c ur unt i l s uppor t s e r vi c e s w e r e t he r e o r w e r e t he r e i n a c e r t a i n t i m e pe r i od. T ha t w a s t he 1985 A c t T hos e pl a ns w oul d ha ve r ol l e d i n a r ound 1 989, 90, 91, a r ound t he s t a t e B ut you ha d w ha t t he y c a l l e d a um a t t ha t poi nt t hi ngs ha d r a m pe d up w i t h t he s t a t e [ T he y] w e r e now f e e l i ng t ha t t he y w a nt e d t o m a ke s ur e t ha t t he l oc a l gove r nm e nt s di d a good on l i ne p l a n a nd s o t he y w r ot e r ul e s f or t he m I t hi nk i t w a s c a l l e d 9 J 5 r e qui r e m e nt s I t w a s a s pe c i a l r ul e t ha t t he D e pa r t m e nt of C om m uni t y A f f a i r s ha d t ha t s a i d, T hi s i s w ha t s goi ng t o be i n you r pl a n N ot onl y [ t ha t ] but t he l e gi s l a t ur e s a i d w i t h t w e l ve e l e m e nt s but t h i s i s w ha t s goi ng t o be i n e a c h of t he e l e m e nt s of t he p l a n a nd a l l t ha t S o t he r e w a s a r a m pi ng up o f a h i f you w a nt t o s a y a c c ount a bi l i t y W M : U m huh. B S : A nd t he n you r pl a ns ha d t o be s e nt t o t he s t a t e f or t he m t o a gr e e w i t h I f t he y di dn t l i ke i t t he y c oul d t e l l you s o a n d t he i r e nf or c e m e nt w a s t o hol d ba c k s om e s t a t e m one y o r s om e t hi ng l i ke t ha t W M : T he c a r r ot or t he s t i c k? B S : Y our us ua l t hi ng B ut t he s t a t e doe s n t ha ve a l ot Y ou w oul d s t i l l ha ve a l e ga l p l a n, i t j us t m e a nt t ha t t he y w oul d be a nd s o P l us t h e y pr o ba bl y w oul dn t ha ve ne e de d t ha t L oc a l gove r nm e nt i s n t goi ng t o be a dopt i ng s om e t hi ng t ha t t he s t a t e a h ha s s a i d t he y don t t hi nk i s good. W M : S o how di d you a l l go a bout put t i ng t he pl a n t oge t he r ?

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6 B S : W e l l i t w a s your t r a di t i ona l p r oc e dur e W ha t y ou w oul d do i s a nd t hi s ha d t o do w i t h e ve n t he f i r s t pl a n t ha t w e di d. I w oul d s a y w he n w e r e a l l y s t a r t e d ge t t i ng e vol ve d i n pl a nni ng w oul d ha ve be e n f r om t he m i d s e ve nt i e s unde r w ha t t he y c a l l t he L oc a l G ov e r nm e nt C om pr e he ns i ve P l a nni ng A c t t he ol d L G C P A T ha t w a s 1975. T ha t s w he n w e r e a l l y s t a r e d pl a nni ng. A nd you ha d t he s e va r i ous e l e m e nt s s o w ha t you di d w a s you w oul d d r a f t up a n e l e m e nt a nd t he n you d ha ve c om m uni t y w or ks hops Y ou d go i nt o t he c om m uni t y a nd a dve r t i s e a nd i t d be ve r y s i m i l a r t o t he pr oc e s s w e r e us i ng now Y ou go out ha ve i nf or m a l w or ks hops a nd you s how t he m d r a f t pl a ns Y ou l i s t e n t o w ha t t he y ha ve t o s a y. Y ou r e f i ne w ha t you di d, ba s e d upon t he publ i c c om m e nt T he n you s t a r t t he n i n t o a publ i c he a r i ng pr oc e s s w he r e you ve go t a boa r d s i t t i ng u p f r ont a nd pe opl e c om m e nt i ng Y ou do t ha t a s you r pl a nni ng a ge nc y. T he n you m a ke a r e c om m e nda t i on t o t he B oa r d o f C ount y C om m i s s i one r s [ a nd t he y] a c t on i t T hos e w e r e a l l i n publ i c he a r i ng pr oc e s s B ut um pr oba bl y I d s a y t he f i r s t one t ha t w a s done i n t he e a r l y 1980 s l i ke 80, or 81, l i ke t ha t t ha t p l a n. W e ha d a l ot of pe opl e s ho w i ng up a t t he he a r i ng be c a us e w e w e r e s t i l l ha vi ng a pl a n t ha t w a s goi ng t o ha ve t h i s um e f f e c t pe opl e s pr ope r t y m or e t ha n ot he r pl a ns [ w oul d ] S o, you r e a l l y ha d a l ot of pe opl e um t ha t w e r e be i ng a f f e c t e d. S o w he n w e a dopt e d t he pl a n w e w oul d ha ve a l i s t c onne c t e d w i t h i t of a l l t he s e pe opl e t ha t w e r e p r ope r t y ow ne r s t ha t s a i d, W e l l I m oka y w i t h t he p l a n i f I m a l l ow e d t o do s uc h a nd s uc h f o r a ye a r s o. L i ke t hi s t he s i t e pl a ns m i ght be a c t i ve S o w ha t ha ppe ne d w a s t o ge t t ha t pl a n t h r ough yo u ha d t o do a l ot of t ha t Y ou ha d t o N ow i t s m or e um be c a us e pl a ns ha ve be e n i n pl a c e f or a w hi l e i t s a l w a ys a bout a c ha nge on a pa r t i c ul a r pa r c e l o r a r e a B ut ba c k t he n you ha d t he w hol e c ount y t o de a l w i t h. S o you, t he r e f o r e p r oba bl y ha d a hundr e d t o t w o hundr e d di f f e r e nt pa r c e l s t ha t w e w e r e goi ng t o e f f e c t be c a us e i t j us t w a s n t t he r i gh t us e S o how do you de a l w i t h t ha t ove r t i m e ? H ow do y o u pha s e t he m out ? S o t he y r e a l l c a s e by c a s e S o w e ha d a w hol e f ol de r f ul l of t hos e w he n w e w e r e f i r s t doi ng t he pl a n put t i ng t he m on l i ne T ha t w a s n t e a s y. ( l a ughs ) W M : ( l a ughs ) I c a n i m a gi ne Y ou s a i d t ha t um a t t he w or ks hops you ha d a l a r ge t ur nout ? B S : I w oul d s a y i t w a s m ode r a t e T he r e a s on t he t u r nout w a s oc c ur r i ng be c a us e t hi s w a s t he f i r s t t i m e pe opl e w e r e be i ng i m pa c t e d by a pl a n. A l ot of t he pe opl e t ha t w e r e s how i ng up w e r e pe opl e t ha t w e r e a f f e c t e d di r e c t l y by t he p l a n. T he r e w e r e s om e pe o pl e a l s o t he r e t ha t w e r e c onc e r ne d a bout t he e nvi r onm e nt a nd [ s a yi ng] t ha t w e ne e de d t o ha ve de ns i t y c ont r ol s T he r e w a s t ha t pa r t o f t he c o m m uni t y a s w e l l

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7 I t w a s i n t he e a r l y ye a r s t o w he r e w e ha d a l ot of e nvi r onm e nt a l l a nds t ha t ha dn t be e n t hr e a t e ne d w i t h de ve l opm e nt but you c oul d s t i l l s e e t he ha ndw r i t i ng on t he w a l l S o pa r t of t he pl a n w a s t he n not r e gul a t i on, pa r t of t he pl a n w a s a l s o [ a bout ] how t o ge t a bl ue pr i nt goi ng t o a c qui r e a nd pr ot e c t pr ope r t i e s t h a t w e w e r e c onc e r ne d a bout A c t ua l l y w e ha d, i n t he e a r l y s e ve nt i e s de ve l ope d a l i s t of a hundr e d a nd s i xt y one pr ope r t i e s t ha t w e w a nt e d t o ha ve p r e s e r ve d. E ve r yt hi ng f r o m a w hol e G r oupe r C r e e k pr e s e r ve d t o s om e t hi ng r e a l l y s m a l l l i ke a one or t w o a c r e pa r c e l I t w a s i nt e r e s t i ng, j us t a c ou pl e of ye a r s a go w e r e l ooke d a t t ha t l i s t a nd f ound t ha t w e ha d a c t ua l l y pr ot e c t e d one hund r e d a nd s i xt y [ out ] of one hund r e d a nd s i xt y one s i t e s W M : W ow t ha t s pr e t t y good! B S : W hi c h i s [ p r e t t y good] W e a c t ua l l y got a na t i ona l e nvi r onm e nt a l a w a r d f or i t B e c a us e you know w e w e r e a bl e t o doc um e nt i t W e ha d w ha t you c a l l a r e d f l a g c ha r r e t t e pr ogr a m i n t he e a r l y 1970s W e put a l l t h e e nvi r onm e nt a l i s t s t oge t he r i n a r oom t w e nt y or t h i r t y pe opl e [ W e ] ha d a l l di f f e r e nt ki nd s of e xpe r t i s e T he y w e r e ou t i n t he f i e l d m a ki ng r e por t s a nd i de nt i f i e d a c om pr e he ns i ve m a p t ha t l i s t e d a l l of t he s i t e s I t w a s know n t ha t w e m i ght not be a bl e t o ge t t he s e r i ght a w a y, but t hi s i s a l ong t e r m pr ogr a m N ot a l l of t he s i t e s w e r e a c qui r e d w i t h i n a ye a r or t w o; i t w a s l i ke a pus hi ng t hi r t y ye a r s t ype of p r ogr a m S o i n a ddi t i on t o l a nd r e gul a t i on w e w e r e doi ng t ha t W hi c h i s a l s o a ke y pa r t T he be s t w a y t o pr ot e c t i t i s t o ow n i t ( l a ughs ) W M : ( l a ughs ) B S : A l t hough I l l a dm i t t ha t i s s t i l l not w i t hout i t s de ba t e s B e c a us e e ve n i f you r e t he ow ne r of i t a s t he gove r nm e nt pe opl e c oul d s t i l l b e t e m pt e d t o do t hi ngs i n t he s e pr e s e r ve s S o, you know i t s s t i l l you a l w a ys ha ve t o ha ve your e ye s ope n, e ve n on t ha t s i de S o w e ha d t o t he n e s t a bl i s h c ont r ol p r oc e dur e s e ve n f or publ i c ow ne r s hi p. S o w e ha ve pr e s e r va t i on c a t e gor y i n t he pl a n w e p ut on t he pr ope r t y t ha t i s now publ i c l y ow ne d a nd e ve n s a y w ha t i s pe r m i t t e d a nd w ha t s not pe r m i t t e d i n t e r m s of a c t i vi t i e s W M : S o l i ke hi ki ng on l y? B S : Y e s T he r e s a l ot of de ba t e go i ng on r i ght no w w i t h us w i t h ou r pr e s e r ve s B e c a us e i t w a s a s s um e d t ha t you w oul d on l y ha ve a t t he m os t F i r s t of a l l t he r e i s a l ot of e nvi r onm e nt a l l a nd t ha t you w oul d not [ l e t ] a nyt hi ng t o ha ppe n t o a t a l l A ppa r e nt l y you c a n m a ke a n a r gum e nt t ha t you d i dn t e ve n w a nt p e opl e w a l ki ng i n i t I t w a s t ha t ki nd o f s t r i c t T he n w e ha ve pa s s i ve r e c r e a t i on w he r e you d ha ve w a l ki ng t r a i l s a nd t hi ngs l i ke t ha t T ha t w oul d be up, but you w oul dn t be de a l i ng w i t h ba l l f i e l ds o r a ny of t he nor m a l or ga ni z e d s por t s t ype of t hi ng. I t w a s j us t a p r e s e r ve A nd t he n ove r t he ye a r s I d s a y

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8 r e c e nt ye a r s a s w e a c qui r e m or e a nd m or e o f t hi s l a nd a nd you ve got publ i c s uppor t t o do i t t he que s t i on c a m e up H ow doe s t he publ i c a ppr e c i a t e a l l of t hi s i nve s t m e nt t he y ve got i n i t ? A nd you ve got t o ha ve s om e f o r m of a c c e s s f or t he s e pe opl e t o a t l e a s t know w ha t s out t he r e w ha t t he e nvi r onm e n t i s S o w e ve a dj us t e d a l i t t l e bi t t ha t w a y t he pr e s e r ve s a r e a l i t t l e bi t m or e ope n t o t he p ubl i c B ut t ha t s be e n m or e i n t he l a s t f e w ye a r s B ut up unt i l t he n i t w a s put a f e nc e a r ound i t ; j us t t he bi r ds a nd t he a ni m a l s i n t he r e N o pe opl e be c a us e i t s t ha t ( l a ughs ) I t hi nk t ha t t h i n ki ng ha s c ha nge d a l i t t l e bi t W M : W e l l um I t hi nk t ha t i f you a l l pr e s e r ve d one hundr e d a nd s i xt y out o f one hundr e d a nd s i xt y one s i t e s t ha t you t hought w e r e i m por t a nt t ha t i s s om e t hi ng t o f e e l good a bout B S : T ha t s a m a z i ng. W M : B ut a t t he c om m uni t y w or ks hops you s a i d y ou ha d t he e nvi r onm e nt a l i s t s w ho I gue s s w e r e m or e l ooki ng a t t h e c om m uni t y i nt e r e s t s B ut t he ot he r pe opl e w e r e t he y hom e ow ne r s ? P r ope r t y ow ne r s ? I m e a n l i ke r e nt a l pr ope r t y c om m e r c i a l f ol ks B S : Y e s W M : T e l l m e a bout t he m B S : W e l l t he ki nd o f t he pe opl e t ha t w oul d s how up, be s i de s t he pe opl e f r om t he e nvi r onm e nt a l i nt e r e s t s t he pe opl e f r om t he S i e r r a C l ub a nd t he e nvi r onm e nt a l gr oups l i ke t ha t a nd t he n t he F r i e nds o f S om e t hi ng Y ou ha d a l s o, t he pe opl e t ha t ow ne d va c a nt l a nd t ha t w a nt e d t o know how m uc h t he y w e r e goi ng t o be l i m i t e d, w ha t oppo r t uni t i e s t he y h a d. [ T he y] w a nt e d t o be l ooki ng out f or t he i r i nt e r e s t s T he n you ha d a l s o Y ou di dn t ha ve a l ot of hom e ow ne r gr oup t hi ngs be c a us e t he y w e r e a l r e a dy e s t a bl i s he d. W M : U m huh. B S : S o I w oul d m or e s a y i t w a s gr oups t ha t ha d t h e va c a nt l a nd, t he de ve l opm e nt i nt e r e s t s t he pe opl e t ha t w a nt e d t o p r e s e r ve t hi ngs [ a nd] t he n you ha d s om e pe opl e t ha t w e r e j us t c onc e r ne d a bout s a y, t he i m pa c t on t he r oa ds s ys t e m c onge s t i on a nd t hi ngs l i ke t ha t B ut a l s o, w he n w e w e r e doi ng t hi s w e w e r e de ve l opi ng not j us t a l a nd us e c om pone nt but you ha d t he s e ba s i c a l l y t w e l ve e l e m e nt s of a pl a n. S o you ha d pe opl e c om m e nt i ng on t he t r a ns por t a t i on a s pe c t t he r e c r e a t i on ope n s pa c e a s pe c t t he hous i ng a s pe c t T he r e w e r e a l ot o f e l e m e nt s of t he pl a n t ha t w e w e r e hol di ng he a r i ngs on. S o i t w a s n t I di dn t w a nt t o ove r e m pha s i z e t he l a nd us e a l one

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9 W M : U m huh. Y ou ve m e nt i one d t he t w e l ve e l e m e nt s of t he pl a n P e r ha ps you c oul d l i s t t he m ? B S : I c oul d go l ook t he m up ( l a ughs ) W M : ( l a ughs ) B S : T he y r e l i s t e d i n t he S t a t e S t a t ut e s 163, but ge ne r a l l y s pe a ki ng you r e l ooki ng a t a phys i c a l ba s e d pl a n, s o t he r e a r e t he n. T he r e a r e e l e m e nt s t ha t l ook a t t he l a nd de ve l opm e nt S o y ou r e l ooki ng a t l a nd us e t r a ns por t a t i on um w a t e r s e w e r dr a i na ge t he s e ki nd of i s s ue s ; r e c r e a t i on ope n s pa c e hous i n g. I t s f oc us e d pr i m a r i l y on t hos e ki nds of s ubj e c t s A nd t he r e i s a bout t w e l ve of t he m T he i nt e r e s t i ng t hi ng i s t ha t t he r e w e r e t he n you ha d ot he r opt i ona l e l e m e nt s t ha t ha d be e n l i t t l e us e d. F or i ns t a nc e a l l t he s oc i a l a s pe c t of o ur s oc i e t y, w ha t w e do t ha t s not r e qui r e d or c a l l e d f o r w a s a l l f oc us e d on t he l a nd s i de of t hi ngs l a nd ba s e d o r phys i c a l de ve l opm e nt S o, I t hi nk t ha t s s om e t hi ng, t ha t s s om e t hi ng t ha t s r a m pe d up i n r e c e nt ye a r s now t ha t f or us a nd pr oba bl y o t he r p a r t s of t he s t a t e w hi c h i s W ha t do w e w a nt t o do i n t e r m s of pl a nni ng t ha t s houl d be pa r t of pl a n f or t h e s oc i a l s i de of t hi ngs A nd t ha t s s t i l l a n e m e r gi ng t hi ng. T o gi ve you a n e xa m pl e w e r e c e nt l y c a m e up w i t h t he t hi r t e e nt h e l e m e nt of t he p l a n w hi c h i s n t i n t he book a t l e a s t i n t he s t a t e s book A s i t w a s w e de ve l ope d a n e l e m e nt c a l l e d pl a nni ng t o s t a y. W e r e a l i z e d, i t w a s a c oup l e of ye a r s a go t ha t a l l o f our pl a nni ng w a s ba s e d upon um a gr e e n a r e a s o t o s pe a k, w he r e you j us t ha d ope n l a nd, you r e w or ki ng w i t h de ve l opi ng. B ut now our pl a nni ng ne e de d t o t a ke i nt o a c c ount [ t ha t ] t hi ngs w e r e a l r e a dy de ve l ope d a nd bui l t out S o how do you p r ot e c t w ha t s bui l t o ut a nd i n s om e c a s e s you m i ght w a nt t o ha ve s om e r e de ve l opm e nt B ut i n a l ot of i t t he r e i s a l ot m or e p r e s s ur e on t he e nvi r onm e nt a l l a nd t ha t w a s l e f t t ha t m a ybe w a s n t on t he H undr e d a nd s i xt y l i s t but t he r e s s t i l l m or e e nvi r onm e nt W M : U m huh. B S : H ow do you de a l w i t h t he s m a l l e r pa r c e l s or t he e nvi r onm e nt a l l a nd t ha t s a n upl a nd a r e a t ha t w a s n t a w e t l a nd a nd t hi ngs l i ke t ha t ? S o um ba s i c a l l y you w a nt t o c om e up w i t h a n e l e m e nt t ha t s a i d t ha t you w oul d ha ve f u t ur e ge ne r a t i ons s a y ou r gr a ndc hi l dr e n, w oul d s t i l l w a nt t o be P i ne l l a s C ou nt y t o l i ve w or k a nd pl a y. T he r e f or e [ w e n e e d t o] s e t up gui de l i ne s i n t he e l e m e nt f or h ow w oul d w e a ppr oa c h f ut ur e pl a nni ng, w i t h t ha t a s s um pt i on i n m i nd. Y ou c oul d c a l l i t s us t a i na bl e but a c t ua l l y i t w a s a l i t t l e bi t m or e t ha n s us t a i na bl e pl a nni ng. S us t a i na bl e m e a ns you r e j us t pr e s e r vi ng

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1 0 W M : U m huh. B S : I n t h i s c a s e w e r e t a l ki ng a bout w a y m o r e t ha n t ha t s om e one w a nt i ng t o s t a y he r e o r w a nt i ng t o c om e ba c k, i f t he y l e f t t ha t s or t of t hi n g. A ga i n, f o r j obs f or l i vi ng f or r e c r e a t i on f or qua l i t y of l i f e j us t a l l o f t ha t a nd um t ha t s ki nd of be e n our gui de l i ne now f or t he l a s t c oupl e of ye a r s i n t e r m s o f ou r pl a nni ng. O ur c ount y ha s s om e pe opl e c l a i m i t s bui l t out but t ha t s not Y ou c oul d s a y, l i ke M a nha t t a n, i n N e w Y or k i s bui l t out a nd ye t t he r e r e s t i l l bui l di ng t hi ngs doi ng t hi n gs a l l t he t i m e S o I t hi nk t ha t s w ha t w e r e l ook i ng a t i s w e w a nt t o ha ve a n e c onom y t ha t s c ont i nui ng but i t doe s n t ne c e s s a r i l y ha ve t o be t hi s e xt r a gr ow t h I t c oul d be r e w or ki ng t hi ngs m a ki ng t he m be t t e r A l s o, a n e m pha s i s on t he qua l i t y of l i f e a s pe c t w e ha ve t he P i ne l l a s T r a i l t ha t w e e s t a bl i s he d i n 1990. A c t ua l l y i t w a s pa r t of t ha t w h ol e m a na ge d gr ow t h i ni t i a t i ve W e ha d e i ght m i l l i on dol l a r s t ha t w a s w he n w e f i r s t e s t a bl i s he d um W or ki ng ba c k a l i t t l e bi t i n 1985 t he y, w he n t he y di d t ha t M a na ge d G r ow t h A c t t he upda t e a nd t he y m a de a m uc h m or e c om pr e he ns i ve r e qui r e m e nt on us f o r doi ng pl a nni ng. T he y s a i d you c oul dn t ha ve de ve l opm e nt w i t hout s uppor t i ng f a c i l i t i e s t he c onc ur r e nc y a s pe c t T he y a l s o put i n t he r e t he f a c t t ha t you c oul d go f o r a n i n f r a s t r uc t ur e t a x t he y c a l l i t o f 1 pe r c e nt s a l e s t a x. T ha t w oul d be t he t ool t ha t you c oul d ge t m one y t o bui l d t he t hi n gs you ne e de d t o s uppor t t he de ve l opm e nt t ha t you d i de n t i f i e d you know t hi s s or t o f t hi ng be c a us e i f you a r e r e qui r e d t o ha ve a l l o f t he s e i m p r ove m e nt s t he n you ha d t o ha ve m one y t o do t ha t S o w ha t ha ppe ne d w a s w e de ve l ope d t he p l a n a nd w e de ve l ope d a n i m pr ove m e nt l i s t a s w e l l A nd t ha t w a s w ha t w a s t a ke n t o a r e f e r e ndum i n 1989 a nd pa s s e d. I t w a s one of t he f e w i n t he s t a t e a t t he t i m e t ha t pa s s e d. I t pa s s e d by t hr e e hundr e d vot e s or s om e t hi ng. B ut t he n t ha t s w he r e w e got t he m one y t o do a l ot of not on l y r oa d i m pr ove m e nt s a nd a l ot of pa r k, e nvi r onm e nt a l a c qui s i t i ons w e a l s o bu i l t t he P i ne l l a s T r a i l w i t h t ha t [ I t w a s bui l t ] on a n e xi s t i ng r a i l l i ne I m e a n a n a ba ndone d r a i l l i ne t ha t t he s t a t e ha d a c qui r e d W M : U m huh. B S : T he r e a s on I m e nt i one d t ha t i s i t ki nd of i nf l ue nc e d t he w hol e a ppr oa c h, I t hi nk, of t he c ount y i n t e r m s of de ve l opm e nt i n t he f u t ur e T hi s w a s t he t hi r t y f our m i l e c or r i dor t hr ough t he m i ddl e of t he c ount y t ha t w a s c ont i nuo us a nd um di dn t e xi s t a nyw he r e e ve n na t i ona l l y. S o you ha ve ot he r pl a c e s w he r e t h e t r a i l w i l l go f r om t he c i t y out but i n t hi s c a s e i t goe s t hr ough t he m i ddl e o f a l l our dow nt ow ns a nd t he r e s t l i ke t hi s I t w a s l i ke a n e i ght m i l l i on dol l a r t i c ke t t ha t w a s i nc l ude d i n t ha t pe nny pr og r a m W e bui l t t ha t a nd w e r e now de a l i ng w i t h w e r e now de a l i ng w i t h e xt e ns i ons i n t ha t but i t i nf l ue nc e s

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1 1 pe opl e s t hi nki ng. I t s a bi ke pe de s t r i a n t r a i l i n t he m i ddl e of e ve r yt hi ng i n t he m i dd l e of e ve r yt hi ng i n t he m i dd l e of dow nt ow n, s o a c om m uni t y l i ke D une di n w i l l j us t e ve nt ua l l y w or k t he i r dow nt ow n a r ound i t a s a pe de s t r i a n f r i e ndl y e nvi r onm e nt S o t ha t s r e a l l y i nf l ue nc e d ou r w hol e a ppr oa c h t o how w e vi e w de ve l opm e nt e m pha s i z i ng t he bi ke pe de s t r i a n [ t r a i l ] I don t w a nt t o ove r e m pha s i z e a l l of t ha t be c a us e t he y r e s t i l l do i ng a l o t of r oa d bui l di ng. B ut i t s s or t of i nf l ue nc e d you r qua l i t y of l i f e c onc e pt W M : W e l l I w a s goi ng t o a s k w ha t ki nd o f you s a i d t he r e f e r e ndum t o l e vy t he t a x f or t he s e ki nd of i m p r ove m e nt s pa s s e d by t hr e e hundr e d vot e s w hi c h I d t h i nk w oul d be s or t of a s l i m m a r gi n B S : I t w a s ve r y s l i m W M : S o s i nc e t ha t s be e n i n pl a c e f r om w ha t you ve s a i d, I a s s um e i t s be e n s uc c e s s f ul B S : Y e s W M : S o w ha t ki nd of pub l i c s uppor t i s t he r e f or um f or publ i c s pa c e l i ke t ha t ? B S : W e l l a c t ua l l y i t one of t he r e a s ons pe opl e f e l t t he pe nny [ t a x] pa s s e d w a s be c a us e of t he P i ne l l a s T r a i l be i ng i n t he pa c ka ge T he n yo u ha d a num b e r of c i t i z e ns w ho w e r e a dvoc a t e s f or t ha t W ha t w e f ound w a s t ha t i f yo u di d w ha t you t hought w e r e i m po r t a nt t hi ngs t he j a i l s a nd t he c our t c om pl e xe s a nd t he r oa ds i n t he r e pe opl e t hought t ha t w a s i m por t a nt but t he y w e r e n t ne c e s s a r i l y goi ng t o vot e f o r e xt r a t a xe s f o r t ha t B ut t he y w oul d [ vot e ] f or a n e nvi r on m e nt a l pr e s e r ve f or op e n s pa c e f or t r a i l s T ha t s e e m e d t o be t he t hi ng t ha t hi t a ne r ve w i t h pe opl e T he y w oul d be O ka y t ha t s f i ne W e l l do t ha t T he y kne w t ha t you w oul dn t do t ha t w i t hout t he e xt r a t a x. I t w a s ki nd o f a n i nt e r e s t i ng t hought pr oc e s s I t w a s e xpe c t e d t ha t a l l of your nor m a l gove r nm e nt r e ve nue s w oul d ha ndl e t he ba s i c s T he r e f or e i f you c a m e up w i t h s om e t hi ng e xt r a l i ke t ha t t he y d be w i l l i ng t o pa y f o r i t B ut i f you s a i d, I w a nt e xt r a m one y f or t he nor m a l t hi ngs I f you t hi nk a bout t ha t m e s s a ge t h a t doe s n t r i ng t he s a m e w a y w i t h t he publ i c W M : U m huh. B S : S o w ha t y ou t r y t o do i s s how t ha t w e got e ve r yt hi ng e l s e c ove r e d, but t he s e e xt r a t hi ngs t ha t r a i s e t he ba r f o r t he qua l i t y o f l i f e w e w a nt t o ha ve m one y f or t hos e P e opl e bought t ha t m e s s a ge N ow i t w a s t hr e e hund r e d pe opl e a t t ha t t i m e i n 19 89, s o i t w a s a t e n ye a r pr ogr a m A s w e r e ge t t i ng t ow a r d t he e nd of t he t e n ye a r s a r ou nd 1997, w e w a nt e d t o g o out a ga i n f or a n e xt e ns i on [ of t hi s t a x] f or a not he r t e n ye a r s S o w e put t oge t he r [ a ] p r ogr a m ; m or e t r a i l w or k m o r e e nvi r onm e nt a l a c qui s i t i on a nd ot h e r r oa d t h i ngs T ha t pa s s e d by t w o

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1 2 t hi r ds t o one t hi r d vot e B e c a us e t he publ i c s e e i n g t he be ne f i t a nd s e e i ng w ha t s ha ppe ni ng t he y w e r e r e a l l y s uppor t i ve o f i t N ow p e opl e c a l l i t t he P e nny, or t he P e nny f or P i ne l l a s ha s got a r e a l l y hi gh r e c ogni t i on t o i t P e opl e j us t a r e f o r t ha t e ve n i f t he y a r e n t f o r ot he r t a xe s S o w e ve now s c he dul e d a t hi r d r e f e r e ndum w hi c h i s goi ng t o be ne xt s pr i ng i n M a r c h. A nd e ve n t hough t he r e a r e a l l of t he s e t a x i s s ue s a r ound a bout p r ope r t y t a xe s a nd t he r e s t t he y ve done a pol l a nd f ound t ha t e ve n w i t h a l l of t ha t de ba t e 63 pe r c e nt of t he pe opl e w oul d s t i l l vot e f or a pe nny e xt e ns i on. I t hi nk i t s got a di f f e r e nt um m I w oul dn t s a y di f f e r e nt a ge nda i t s go t a di f f e r e nt pe r c e pt i on t o i t Y ou r e f oc us e d on t hi ngs t ha t r a i s e t he ba r t hi ngs t ha t pe opl e a r e w i l l i ng t o r e a l l y pa y f or B ut i t s a di s t i nc t i on a s oppos e d t o t hos e t hi ngs t ha t you ve t hough t of a s ba s i c s T he y j us t t hi nk t he y s houl d be c ove r e d by ( c huc kl e s ) w h a t e ve r m one y you ve got Y ou s houl dn t ha ve t o a s k f or t ha t W M : W e l l i t s gr e a t t o s e e t ha t t he r e i s publ i c s uppor t f o r publ i c s pa c e B S : U m huh. W M : B ut w h a t a bout t he oppos i t i on t o t ha t ? B S : W e l l i n t he pa s t t he r e ha s n t r e a l l y be e n a ny. O t he r t ha n s om e one t ha t W e ve done s ur ve ys a nd t he r e w ol d be ba s i c a l l y, a t hi r d of t he popul a t i on I don t w on t t o s a y t h i s t he w r ong w a y t he y r e a l w a ys goi ng t o be vot i ng a ga i ns t s om e t hi ng. S o you know t ha t s t he ha r dc or e W e ve done s ur v e ys t he r e i s a l w a ys t he one t hi r d no, ( c huc kl e s ) T ha t s pr e t t y m uc h you r e no t goi ng t o be a bl e I w oul dn t s a y not be a bl e t o c ha nge t hos e pe opl e s m i nds T he y a r e j us t t he r e a nd t h a t s w ha t t he y a r e goi ng t o vot e f or B ut I w oul d s a y, ge ne r a l l y s pe a ki ng, i f you w o r k t he p r ogr a m r i ght t ha t s k i nd of t he vot i ng di s t r i but i on you ve go t W M : U m huh. I m j us t t hi nki ng, s om e pe opl e w oul d t hi nk a bout you know pr i va t e i nt e r e s t s l i ke be a c hf r ont de ve l opm e nt or s om e t hi ng t he y w oul d w a nt s uppor t o r pe r m i s s i on f or t ha t a s oppos e d t o a publ i c pa r k I w a s j us t w onde r i ng B S : I don t t h i nk I f ol l ow w ha t you r e s a yi ng. W M : W e l l i t s ot he r pe opl e I ve t a l ke d t o t he r e a r e I gue s s t hi s goe s ba c k t o one of t he pe opl e I i nt e r vi e w e d i n H i l l s bor ough C ount y w ho t a l ke d a bout p r ope r t y r i ght s a nd he s a i d, T hi s i s m y pr ope r t y I c a n do w i t h i t w ha t I w a nt P ubl i c de ve l opm e nt t ha t i nf r i nge s on m y pr i va t e pr ope r t y i s s om e t hi ng I m oppos e d t o.

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1 3 S o I w a s j u s t w onde r i ng, you t a l ke d a bout t he s upp or t f o r t he publ i c pr ope r t y, t he t r a i l s s ys t e m he r e i n P i ne l l a s C ount y. B S : U m huh. W M : A nd t he de ve l opm e nt i nt e r e s t s ; I s uppos e w a s t ha t s om e t hi ng t ha t w a s a c ount e r f or c e f or t ha t ? B S : W e l l i t pr oba bl y ha s a l ot t o do w i t h c om m uni c a t i on a nd unde r s t a ndi ng. I t h i nk i s w he r e I s e e F or i ns t a nc e on t he e a s t s i de of t he c ount y w e r e doi ng a not he r t r a i l on t he P r ogr e s s E ne r gy p r ope r t y W e ha ve a l e a s e w i t h P r ogr e s s E ne r gy f o r ni ne t y n i ne ye a r s t o bui l d a t r a i l t he r e W ha t you r e de a l i ng w i t h w he n you r de a l i ng w i t h ne w t r a i l s i s your de a l i ng w i t h c om m uni t y i m pa c t D o pe opl e t hi nk t hi s i s a good i de a ? N ow w e ha d t he be ne f i t of ha vi ng t he P i ne l l a s T r a i l i n, w i t h a h i s t or y t o i t S o t he r e f or e i t w a s due t o t he be ne f i t you c a n s how t ha t i t w o r ks T he r e w e r e n t c r i m e i s s ue s a nd t he va l ue o f l a nd w a s good. T he pr ope r t y [ s ol d ] m or e qui c kl y i f you w e r e ne a r t he t r a i l t hi ngs l i ke t ha t H ow e ve r i n t he ne w a r e a s [ w e ve ] ge ne r a l l y f oun d t ha t de ve l opm e nt i n t e r e s t s w a nt t o hook on t o t he t r a i l a nd a c t ua l l y bui l d pa r t o f i t t ha t e f f e c t s t he m S o i f a nyt hi ng i t s be e n m or e of t ha t pos i t i ve s i de a nd a c t ua l l y be e n good B e c a us e w he n you t hi nk a bout i t a t r a i l i s not a n e xpe ns i ve t hi ng t o bui l d a s oppos e d t o bui l di ng a r oa d. ( l a ughs ) T ha t s s om e t hi ng t o t hi nk a bout i f you w e r e a de ve l ope r B ut a l s o t he r e i s t he a m e ni t y a nd t he be ne f i t s t ha t you c a n ge t f r om i t Y ou c a n pr o m ot e t hi s a s s om e t hi ng of a s e l l i ng f e a t ur e S o on t ha t e a s t e r n s i de of t he c ount y w e ve got s e ve r a l de ve l ope r s t h a t w a nt t o s i t dow n w i t h us a n d f i nd ou t how t he y c a n a c t ua l l y bui l d pa r t of t he t r a i l f o r us I m s a yi ng t r a i l s t uf f t hi s ot he r t hi ng i s t he s a m e w a y. T he r e a r e a l l ki nds of a m e ni t i e s t ha t you de a l w i t h bi ke pe de s t r i a n, j us t ga t he r i ng p l a c e s W e upda t e d our W e ha ve a c ount yw i de t r a ns por t a t i on i m pa c t f e e or di na nc e W hi c h i s pr e t t y m uc h unc om m on. T ypi c a l l y i t s j ur i s di c t i on t o j ur i s di c t i on, but a l m os t t w e nt y ye a r s a go now w e e s t a bl i s he d w he n t he r e qui r e m e nt c a m e i n a nd a ga i n f r o m t ha t m a na ge d gr ow t h a c t w e s e t up a t r a ns por t a t i on i m pa c t f e e U s e d o ur c ount yw i de M P O p r ogr a m t o put i t t oge t he r c a us e w e ha d e ve r ybody a t t he t a bl e a l l of t he j u r i s di c t i ons [ W e ] c a m e up w i t h one i m pa c t f e e s o t he r e i s a c h a r t w he r e how m uc h you pa y f o r a s i ngl e f a m i l y hous e ve r s us a n a pa r t m e nt ve r s us a s hoppi ng c e nt e r w i l l be t he s a m e no m a t t e r w hi c h j u r i s di c t i on you r e i n I t s a l l c a l c ul a t e d t he s a m e T he r e a s on I m e nt i one d t ha t s o w e ha d i n pl a c e t h e r e f or e a c ount yw i de or di na nc e t ha t M P O w a s t he c us t odi a n of T he n a l l t he ne w t hi nki ng a bout l i va bl e c om m un i t i e s w i t h a n

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1 4 e m pha s i s on ot he r w a ys t o m ove a r ound be s i de s b e hi nd t he w he e l of a n a ut om obi l e t ha t w e s t a r t e d r e a l i z i ng t ha t w e w e r e doi ng a n upda t e e ve r y t w o ye a r s E ve r y t w o ye a r s w e ha d t o upda t e t he t r a ns por t a t i on i m pa c t f e e o r di na n c e S o w ha t w e di d w i t h t ha t upda t e [ i s ] s e t up a s pe c i a l c om m i t t e e of c i t i z e ns a nd de ve l ope r s t o l ook a t t ha t upda t e how you c oul d r e s pond t o l i va bl e c om m uni t y t hi ngs W ha t w e de ve l ope d t he n w a s a di f f e r e nt a pp r oa c h t o t he i m pa c t f e e Y ou s t i l l ha d a l l o f t he t ypi c a l r e qui r e m e nt s but you c oul d a l s o ge t c r e di t f or doi ng s i de w a l ks l a nds c a pi ng on t he s i de w a l ks Y ou c oul d do t r a i l w or k A l s o ho w you c oul d do c onne c t i vi t y f r om your pr oj e c t t o ot he r pr oj e c t s s o t ha t you w oul dn t ha ve t o ge t out ge t i n you r c a r go out of t he pa r k i ng l ot go ont o t he r oa d go dow n t hr e e bl oc ks a nd t he n go ba c k i n a ga i n. L i ke t ha t i n a c a r Y ou d ge t c r e di t f o r doi ng c onne c t i ons w a l ki ng, o r bi c yc l i ng w ha t e ve r c onne c t i ons be t w e e n your pr oj e c t Y ou d a c t ua l l y ge t i m pa c t f e e c r e di t f o r t ha t I t got a l i t t l e bi t of a c ha l l e nge l e ga l l y w i t h us t o w or k w i t h a t t o r ne ys be c a us e t he r e w e r e ot he r t hi ngs l i ke ga t he r i ng pl a c e s w hi c h a l s o l e nd t he m s e l ve s t o ha vi ng pe opl e out s i de w a l ki ng. T hos e w e r e s om e of t he t hi ngs w e c oul dn t gi ve t h e de ve l ope r c r e di t f or but t he n w e w e r e a l s o l ooki ng a t c onc ur r e nc y i s a l s o a not he r t o ol A l s o j us t ba s i c a l l y r e qui r i ng a de ve l ope r t o do i t be c a us e i t s a g ood i de a S o ou t of t ha t i m pa c t f e e upda t e w e de ve l ope d t hos e t hr e e i ni t i a t i ve s O ne w a s t he i m pa c t f e e or di na nc e w a s upda t e d, a nd w he r e a s a de ve l ope r you c oul d ge t c r e di t f or doi ng non a ut om obi l e i m pr ove m e nt s Y ou c oul d a l s o go i de nt i f y t hos e t hi ngs w hi c h w e r e n t e l i gi bl e f or t he i m pa c t f e e t he n w e a l s o ha d c onc ur r e nc y on t he c ha r t w hi c h s a i d s om e t hi ngs you c oul d do t hr ough a c o nc ur r e nc y pr oc e dur e a nd ge t a s i gn of f t o go f o r w a r d w i t h your de ve l opm e nt T he t hi r d w a s t he r e d be s om e t hi ngs f or you t o do f or a ny de ve l opm e nt t o be pe de s t r i a n f r i e ndl y. S o [ w e ] ha d t ha t i n p l a c e a s w e l l T ha t w a s l i ke a c oupl e of ye a r s a go, now W e pu t t ha t i n a nd t ha t w a s l i ke t he ot he r l e g of t he s t ool B e s i de us bui l di ng t hi ngs our s e l ve s on t h e publ i c s i de a nd t he n de ve l opm e nt ove r he r e I t a c t ua l l y m a de i t c om e t i e d t oge t he r H ow m a ny t i m e s ha ve you gone by s om e w he r e a n d you ve got a s i de w a l k i n f r ont of a de ve l opm e nt a nd t he r e i s no w a y t o ge t f r om t he s i de w a l k i nt o t he de ve l opm e nt ? A t be s t you ha ve t o w a l k t h r ough a pa r ki ng l ot bu t t he r e i s n t a ny pr ov i s i on t o ge t t o t he f r ont doo r of t he bu i l di ng. S o t ha t s w ha t you r e de a l i ng w i t h, s o i t s ki nd of r a m pe d up qui t e a bi t ove r t i m e t ha t s now be e n vi e w e d a s a m ode l or di na nc e a nd w e ve s e nt i t a r ound t o a l ot o f ot he r j ur i s di c t i ons I t w a s n t e a s y t o do I f you r e t r yi ng t o do s om e t hi ng di f f e r e nt t he p r e s s ur e i s t o not do t ha t T he a t t or ne y s us ua l l y poi nt i ng out you c a n t do i t be c a us e t he r e i s no pr e c e de nt f o r i t ( l a ughs ) Y ou know t ha t s or t o f t hi ng B ut w e ve now got i t i n pl a c e a nd now w e c a n w or k i n i t a nd i m pr ove on i t

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1 5 W M : O ka y. I j us t w a nt t o m a ke s ur e I unde r s t a nd you, you r e us i ng you r pow e r s o f pl a nni ng t o i n f l ue nc e t he de ve l ope r s t o m a ke t hi ng s m or e publ i c l y a c c e s s i bl e [ a nd] m ovi ng a w a y f r o m a ut om obi l e s a nd e nc our a gi ng [ pe de s t r i a n t r a f f i c ] ? B S : W e l l t he r e a r e t w o t hi ng s I unde r s t a nd w ha t y ou r e s a yi ng now Y ou r e put t i ng t he pl a nni ng c r e di t a bi l i t y i n t o s a y t hi s i s a good i de a E ve n t ha t a l one w oul d w or k be c a us e i t m e a ns t ha t t hi s i s s uppor t e d t o s a y t hi s i s a good i d e a E ve n t ha t a l one w oul d w or k, be c a us e i t m e a ns t h a t t hi s i s s uppor t e d by gove r nm e nt B ut i n a ddi t i on t o t ha t w e r e s a yi ng a nd i f you do i t on t he de ve l opm e nt s i de w e l l not onl y s uppor t you w i t h a ppr ove d s i t e pl a n or [ a n] a pp r ove d pr oj e c t w e a c t ua l l y gi ve you s om e c r e di t I ns t e a d of ha vi ng t o pa y a f e e f o r t hi s you c a n do t hi s I t be c a m e a c t ua l l y ki nd of s ophi s t i c a t e d be c a us e a s a n e xa m pl e one o f t he t hi ngs w e f ound i ns t e a d of t he de ve l ope r pa yi ng l e t s s a y a t w o hund r e d a nd f i f t y t hous a nd dol l a r i m pa c t f e e w hi c h t he y w r i t e a c he c k f o r a nd t he n i t s ba s i c a l l y out of t he i r de ve l opm e nt M e a ni ng [ t ha t ] i t s j us t a c os t of t he i r de ve l opm e nt I f he t ook t ha t s a m e t w o hundr e d a nd f i f t y t hous a nd dol l a r s a nd i nve s t e d i t i n i nf r a s t r uc t ur e a r ound t he s i t e t o m a ke t he s i t e m or e pe de s t r i a n a t t r a c t i ve i t t he n be c om e s a n a s s e t t o t he m a s oppos e d t o s om e t hi ng t ha t w a s pa i d out l i ke a c os t S o t o a ns w e r you r que s t i on t he pl a nni ng s uppor t w a s a good i de a bu t a l s o f r om t he ot he r s i de t he de ve l opm e nt i nt e r e s t s t he y c oul d s e e t he va l ue of i t [ a nd] t hought t hi s m a ke s s e ns e t o us T ha t s w hy ha vi ng t he de ve l ope r s i t t i ng a t t he t a bl e t o put t hi s pa c ka ge t oge t he r ki nd o f w or ks B e c a us e i n t he be gi nni ng t he y w e r e s a yi ng, W e don t w a nt t o do a nyt hi ng ne w a nd e xt r a t ha t s goi ng t o c os t us B ut w he n t he y r e a l i z e t ha t pr oc e dur e t he y c oul d ha ve a c r e di t pr oc e dur e t o do s om e t hi ng t ha t e ve n on t he de ve l opm e nt s i de t he y c oul d s e e t he be ne f i t of i t S o I gue s s I m s a yi ng i t w a s pa r t doi ng t hi ngs c o m i ng up w i t h t hi ngs t ha t t he de ve l ope r ge t s c r e di t f or m but a l s o f r om t h e pl a nni ng s i de t r yi ng t o f i nd w a ys t ha t t he c om m uni t y c a n do t hi ngs t o f ur t he r w ha t t he y w a nt T he c om m uni t y m e a ni ng t he de ve l ope r s a nd t he c i t i z e ns a nd e ve r ybody a t t he t a bl e hope f u l l y. W M : Y e a h, i t doe s s e e m l i ke t he de ve l ope r s w oul d vi e w t he s e pl a n s a s i nc r e a s i ng c os t s a nd [ m a ki ng i t ] di f f i c ul t f or t he m Y ou m e nt i one d t ha t t he l a nd us e a t t o r ne y w oul d s a y, T he r e i s no p r e c e de nt f or t hi s T e l l m e a bout t he r ol e of l a nd us e a t t o r ne ys i n t he pl a nni ng pr oc e s s B S : U m t he y r e p r e t t y m uc h goi ng t o be t he c ons e r va t i ve one s t o s a y, Y ou c a n do t hi s you c a n t do t ha t I t va r i e s f r om j u r i s di c t i on t o j u r i s di c t i on, w hi c h i s a l i t t l e bi t of a c ha l l e nge S o, I w oul d s a y s om e j ur i s di c t i ons w i l l s t r i c t l y a dhe r e t o i t I f a n a t t o r ne y s a ys you c a n t do t hi s t he y w on t do i t O t he r s w i l l t a ke t ha t a s a de vi c e a nd pr oc e e d f o r w a r d. I m not s ur e i f i t l i m i t s p l a nni ng or j us t ke e ps i t c o r r e c t S om e t i m e s i t l i m i t s you be c a us e a h t he r e a r e s om e t hi ngs you d l i ke t o do a nd w a nt t o do f or t he c om m uni t y [ but ]

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1 6 you c a n t do t he m be c a us e t he a t t or ne y w or ki ng w i t h you s a i d no A nd ye t i n t he ne xt j ur i s di c t i on ove r t he a t t o r ne y w oul d ha ve s a i d ye s S o t ha t s pr o ba bl y w he n t he ove r a l l body of know l e dge m ove s f or w a r d i n t hi s s or t of a d hoc w a y. M e a ni ng t ha t e ve nt ua l l y t ha t a l l be c om e s one i f e nough di f f e r e nt i f j ur i s di c t i ons a r e doi ng s om e di f f e r e nt de c i s i ons e v e nt ua l l y i t ge t s t h r ow n i n t he pot a nd s om e t hi ng m ove s f or w a r d, m a ybe a c om bi na t i on o f t hos e i n t e r m s of t he body pl a nni ng know l e dge W M : U m huh. B S : S o t he a t t or ne ys a r e pa r t of i t but I don t t hi nk i t s j us t bl a c k a nd w hi t e t ha t w ha t e ve r t he y s a y goe s a nd t he n you don t go i n t h a t di r e c t i on. B e c a us e t ypi c a l l y t he a t t or ne y i s gi vi ng you opi ni on ba s e d upon pr e c e de nt a nd t hi ngs done i n t he pa s t S o i f you t r y a nd do s om e t hi ng ne w or c ut t i ng e dge you r e ge ne r a l l y a r e not goi ng t o ha ve t he a t t or ne y c om f or t a bl e w i t h i t I n t h i s c a s e s a y on t h e i m pa c t f e e t hi ng t he y w e r e not w a nt i ng t o do t hi s t ha t a nd t he ot he r t hi ng [ T he r e ] w e r e s e ve r a l t hi ngs t he y di dn t l i ke a b out w ha t w e w e r e doi ng W e ha d t o t he n, put i t on hol d ge t w i t h t he C U T R G r oup [ pr onounc e d c ut t e r C e nt e r f or U r ba n T r a ns por t a t i on R e s e a r c h] a t U S F [ U ni ve r s i t y of S out h F l or i da ] a nd do a na t i ona l e va l ua t i on of t hi s t ha t a nd t he ot he r W e d i d f i nd s om e e xa m pl e s of a l m os t l i ke w ha t w e r e doi ng W e us e d t ha t t o de ve l op a c om f or t l e ve l f or our a t t o r ne ys S a yi ng L ook you c oul d do t hi s Y ou c oul d do t ha t W ha t w e r e t a l ki ng a bout i s s l i ght l y l i ke t ha t A l i t t l e bi t s i m i l a r t o i t S o you c a n e dge f or w a r d a l i t t l e bi t w i t hout goi ng i n t o s pe c i f i c s on t ha t B ut I t hi nk t ha t s w ha t you do i s you t a ke t he s e l i t t l e ba by s t e ps f or w a r d a s a pr of e s s i on, ba s e d upon s om e one doe s s om e t hi ng ne w he r e T h e n e ve r ybody e l s e doe s s om e t hi ng t w e nt y f i ve pe r c e nt ne w f r om t ha t a s a gr oup W M : O ka y. B ut be f or e I f or ge t you m e nt i one d t he C U T R G r oup a t U S F ? B S : O ka y. I know I c a n t u m [ i t s t he ] C e nt e r f or U r ba n T r a ns por t a t i on R e s e a r c h, s om e t hi ng l i ke t ha t W M : O ka y. B S : T he y r e a n i ns t i t ut e t ha t ope r a t e s out of t he U n i ve r s i t y of S out h F l or i da O ur M P O P r ogr a m t ha t w a s r unni ng w i t h t hi s w e r e w a nt i ng t o ha ve a r e a di l y a va i l a bl e c ons ul t a nt t o he l p us be c a us e w e r e i n t he m i ddl e o f t hi s p r oj e c t W e l l C U T R i f you t a p i nt o t he m you di dn t ha ve t o us e t he c ons ul t a nt s e l e c t i on pr o c e dur e T ha t s w he r e you ha ve t o c hoos e t hr e e go t hr ough a dve r t i s i ng a nd s e l e c t i ng t hr e e [ t o s ubm i t b i ds ] a nd a l l of t ha t [ W i t h C U T R ] you c oul d j us t c ont a c t t he m di r e c t l y a s t he M P O A l s o t he y ha d a n e xpe r t i s e i n w ha t w e r e de a l i ng w i t h S o w e w e r e a bl e t o ge t t he m e nga ge d i n j us t a m a t t e r of w e e ks t o ke e p our pr og r a m goi ng

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1 7 W M : O ka y. B ut you t a l ke d a bout you know ge t t i ng your pl a ns a c c e pt e d. S o I m t hi nki ng you t a ke your p l a ns be f or e t he B oa r d of C ount y C om m i s s i one r s r i ght ? B S : Y e s W M : A nd t h e y a r e t he one s w ho s a y Y e s [ o r ] N o ? B S : Y e s W M : S o t e l l m e a bout w or k i ng w i t h t he B oa r d o f C ount y C om m i s s i one r s B S : Y ou ge ne r a l l y f i nd t ha t you w o r k w i t h t he m a t t w o l e ve l s O ne a s a boa r d, f o r you r a ppe a r i ng be f or e t he m i n a publ i c he a r i ng or a w or k s hop ge t t i ng r e a di ngs f r om t he m Y ou a l s o w or k w i t h t he m on a one on one ba s i s w he r e di f f e r e nt [ m e m be r s ] m i ght ha ve m or e i nt e r e s t t ha n ot he r s i n s pe c i a l t y a r e a s S o t ha t s a l s o pa r t of t he p r oc e s s but w ha t you a l s o f i nd i s t ha t t he c ount y c om m i s s i on a r e a nd i t s t he s a m e a s t he c i t y c om m i s s i on t he y r e your pol i c y boa r d t ha t s a c c ount a bl e t o t he pub l i c S o on t he pl a nni ng s i de w ha t w e ve a l w a ys f ound w e ha d t o do i s you ha ve t o c om e up w i t h t hi ngs a nd w or k w i t h t hi ngs t ha t you know w oul d w or k w i t h t h e boa r d a nd be a c c e pt a bl e t o t he m be c a us e t he y r e a c c ount a bl e t o t he publ i c T he y r e not goi ng t o vot e f or s om e t hi ng t ha t i s n t s uppor t a bl e by t he publ i c S o s om e pe opl e vi e w t ha t a s pol i t i c a l B ut m y ow n pe r s ona l phi l os ophy i s t ha t s ki nd of pa r t of t h e pr oc e s s T ha t s w ha t t he y a r e e l e c t e d f o r s o i t s not r e a l l y pol i t i c a l I t s j us t t ha t t ha t i s how you ge t your po l i c y de c i de d. S o I m or e vi e w i t a s pol i c y. A nd t ha t c ha nge s R i ght now t hi ngs a r e ve r y c ons e r va t i ve i n r e s pe c t t o de ve l opm e nt E l e c t i ve o f f i c i a l s f e e l i ng hi ghl y a c c ount a bl e f o r h ow de ve l opm e nt w or ks i n t he c om m uni t y, i t c a n t be j us t r a m pa nt l y j us t a ppr ove d not m a t t e r w ha t T he r e i s a l ot m or e a c c ount a bi l i t y i n r e s pe c t t o t ha t i n t he publ i c A nd be c a us e t he publ i c s c onc e r ne d a bout i t t he e l e c t e d s houl d be S o t ha t s you r a t m os phe r e now N ow I m not s ur e i f i t w a s e ve r d r a s t i c a l l y di f f e r e nt but you w oul d ha ve you c oul d l ook a t [ i t ] t e n ye a r s a go l e t s s a y, a nd p r oba bl y ha ve a l ot m or e w i l l i ngne s s t o be a ppr ovi ng t hi ngs t ha t now w oul dn t be a ppr ove d T he r e i s a l ot m or e c onc e r n a bout de ns i t y a nd i m pa c t T ha t s ki nd o f l i ke t hi s s t a t e w i de t r e nd no w w i t h l i ke t hi s H om e t ow n D e m oc r a c y t hi ng. B ut i t s got t o de a l w i t h t ha t c i t i z e n ba s e ( c l oc k c hi m e s ) a nd w ha t t he i r vi e w s a r e a nd I w oul d a c t ua l l y t hi nk a c oupl e of t r e nd t hi ngs I ve not i c e d w oul d be t ha t I t hi nk t he publ i c w oul d be m or e c onc e r ne d a bout de ve l opm e nt i n t he i r c om m uni t i e s t ha n i n t he pa s t

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1 8 A s a r e s ul t of t ha t i n a s hor t pe r i od of t i m e t he y be c om e m or e e duc a t e d a bout w ha t t he y n e e d t o know t o be e nga ge d. T he y a r e s or t of pa y i ng a t t e nt i on f r om ye a r t o ye a r [ a bout ] w ha t s goi ng on. T he r e f or e you r e l e c t e d of f i c i a l [ a nd] t he r e s t of us a r e a l o t m or e a c c ount a bl e f or w ha t w e r e doi ng Y ou c a n t j us t e xpl a i n s om e t hi ng a nd e ve r ybody s [ goi ng t o s a y, ] O h I di dn t know t ha t A nd you pr oc e e d t o do w ha t you w a nt e d t o do N ow t he y unde r s t a nd w ha t you r e t a l ki ng a bout a n d t he n t he y l l s a y, W e s t i l l don t a gr e e w i t h t ha t W ha t e ve r i t i s O r Y ou s houl d d o t hi s W hy don t you do t hi s ? S o I t hi nk t he r e i s a l o t m o r e of t ha t goi ng on. T ha t s pr oba bl y t he ba s i s of a l o t of t hi s r e f e r e ndum t hi nki ng a bout t y i ng i nt o pl a nni ng. I j u s t ki nd of vi e w t ha t a s a c ha l l e nge f or t he pl a nni ng pr o f e s s i on t o f i gu r e out H ow do you ge t a he a d of t ha t ? S o how do you r e a l l y f i nd out w ha t pe opl e a r e t hi n ki ng? N ot j us t goi ng i nt o a publ i c he a r i ng or w o r ks hop a nd s a yi ng, T hi s i s w ha t w e t hi nk you t hi nk B ut f i gur i ng out a w a y w he r e i t w o r ks be c a us e I a c t ua l l y t hi nk t ha t p e opl e a r e n t oppos e d t o de ve l opm e n t or a nyt hi ng. B ut t he y m a y not be s uppor t i ve o f w h a t a de ve l ope r s de ve l opm e nt i s ( c huc kl e s ) W M : U m huh. B S : T ha t s p r oba bl y t he d i f f e r e nc e I ve he a r d pe o pl e s a y, ove r a nd ove r W e don t m i nd t hi s pr ope r t y de ve l ope d bu t w e ha ve a n opi ni on a bout how i t w oul d ha ppe n. S o i f you don t ge t a he a d o f t ha t t he r e c oul d be no de ve l op m e nt P e opl e t hi nk t ha t s a l l t he r e i s e i t he r you de ve l op, or t he r e i s no de ve l opm e nt I t h i nk t ha t s pr oba bl y w he r e I w oul d hope t ha t t he de ve l opm e nt c om m uni t y w o r ks w i t h on [ t h a t ] B e c a us e t he y ha ve t a ke n a ve r y non ne got i a bl e pos i t i on you know Y ou di d t hi s be f or e Y ou ne e d t o do t hi s now ki nd of t hi ng. T he publ i c j us t doe s n t buy t ha t a ny m o r e T he r e f o r e t he e l e c t e d of f i c i a l s a r e n t a bl e t o vot e f or t ha t T ha t s p r oba bl y, I w oul d s a y, one of t he t hi ngs i n t he f ut ur e T he de ve l opm e nt c om m uni t y ki nd of be i ng m or e r e a s ona bl e w i t h w ha t t he y r e pus hi ng us i nt o. I m s a yi ng i t t ha t w a y be c a us e t ha t s t he w a y I s o m e t i m e s s e e i t W M : W e l l i t doe s s e e m ba s e d on m y l i m i t e d r e s e a r c h a nd obs e r va t i ons t ha t t he c ount y c om m i s s i one r s of t e n ope r a t e a nonym ous l y. T he pu bl i c s a t t e nt i on i s m o r e f oc us e d on s t a t e a nd na t i ona l i s s ue s O r t ha t s w ha t i s i n t he p r e s s P e opl e w i l l d i s c ove r t he y l l c om e hom e f r om w or k a nd a s i gn i n t he l ot ne xt t o t he m t ha t a nnounc e s s om e t hi ng. O nl y t he n do t he y ge t i nvol ve d i n publ i c pl a nni ng. B S : W ha t s i nt e r e s t i ng i s now w ha t you ha ve f or i ns t a nc e up i n t he a r e a w he r e I l i ve you w oul d ha ve t he O z ona c om m uni t y a l l ve r y f oc us e d on a n i ni t i a t i ve t he y put t oge t he r t he m s e l ve s A nd t he y a r e w or k i ng w i t h t he c ount y on a n ove r l a y t he r e B ut t he i r t hi nki ng i s t hi s i s not onl y good f or O z ona t he y w ou l d t he n l i ke t o s e e ot he r c om m uni t i e s doi ng

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1 9 t he s a m e t hi ng. A nd t he y a r e w i l l i ng t o ha ve s om e of t he pe opl e f r om t ha t c om m un i t y go t o ot he r c om m un i t i e s t o he l p t he m do t he s a m e t hi ng. S o i t s not a l l a bout i t us e d t o be a bout W e l l I s a w a s i gn ne xt doo r a nd I m goi ng t o be Si de 1 e nds ; s i de 2 be gi ns B S : a nd I ne e d t o be e nga ge d be c a us e I s a w [ a s i gn f or ] r e z oni n g. P e opl e now s e e t ha t w ha t s [ ha ppe ni ng] dow n t he r oa d s om e w he r e [ i n] a not he r c om m uni t y, a l s o a f f e c t s t he m A nd t he y a r e w i l l i n g t o be j us t e nga ge d i n t ha t a s w e l l a s [ w ha t s ha ppe ni ng w i t h] t he ne xt door ne i ghbor I t hi nk t ha t s t he m or e m ode r n s i t ua t i on w e r e de a l i ng w i t h W M : S o t he publ i c i s m or e you d s a y, t ha t t he pu bl i c i s m or e e nga ge d? B S : Y e s de f i ni t e l y M or e e nga ge d a nd a l s o m or e i nf or m e d. I t hi nk t he pl a nni ng pe opl e t ha t don t t a ke t ha t i n t o a c c ount w oul d be t he n o f f t he m a r k w he n t he y ge t t o t he c i t y c om m i s s i on or t he c ount y c om m i s s i on. [ T he y] a r e m a ki ng r e c om m e nda t i ons t he n t he y ve ha d s om e pr e t t y i nt e l l i ge nt [ pe opl e f r om t he ] publ i c e xpl a i ni ng w ha t t he i r vi e w s a r e a nd you ve got t o ha ve t o t a ke t ha t i nt o a c c ount Y ou c a n t j us t w r i t e t he m o f f a s not be i ng i nf or m e d o r a N I M B Y [ N ot I n M y B a c k Y a r d] I t s ki nd o f i n t e r e s t i ng. I a c t ua l l y t hi nk t he t e r m N I M B Y i s be c om i ng not a r e l e va nt t e r m be c a us e t he N I M B Y t he y r e t r y i ng t o s a y t ha t N I M B Y w oul d be l i ke H om e t ow n D e m oc r a c y. Y e t i f you t hi nk a bout i t i t s s o br oa d you c a n t c a l l i t N I M B Y a nym or e ( c huc kl e s ) I t s ha r d t o s a y, W e l l he s onl y c onc e r ne d a bout [ w ha t ] hi s ne xt doo r ne i ghbor i s t r yi ng t o do. N ow w he n t he guy i s a l s o c onc e r ne d a bout dow n t he ot he r s i de of t he c i t y o r t he c ount y, you c a n t c a l l t ha t N I M B Y ( l a ughs ) W M : W e l l i t s k i nd of not i n m y ba c k ya r d by e xt e ns i on, be c a us e w ha t ha ppe ns w a y dow n t he r oa d w i l l e f f e c t w ha t s [ i n m y ba c k ya r d] B S : Y ou ha ve t o [ t hi nk of ] m a ny w a ys f o r not i n m y c om m uni t y. I f you t hi nk a bout i t i t s got a w hol e di f f e r e nt i t s ounds m uc h m or e e n l i ght e ne d, or s om e t hi ng. W hi c h i s ki nd of w ha t s goi ng on O f c our s e i t a f f e c t s i f a guy ha s a p r obl e m or a w om a n ha s a pr obl e m w i t h t he ne xt door ne i ghbor t hi ng, w e l l [ nobody ] e l s e i s w a t c hi n g t ha t E ve n t he c i t y c om m i s s i one r o r t he c ount y c om m i s s i one r o r t he ge ne r a l publ i c a r e goi ng t o ha ve a ha r d t i m e ge t t i ng e nga ge d i n t ha t B ut i f i t s b r oa de r di s c us s i on t he n e ve r ybody i s i nt o i t

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2 0 W M : W e l l um I don t w a nt t o put w or ds i nt o yo ur m out h but i t s e e m s l i ke you r e pl e a s e d by t ha t by m or e pub l i c i nvol ve m e nt I s t h a t a c or r e c t a s s um pt i on on m y pa r t ? B S : Y e s T ha t w a s t he r e a s on I got i n t o pl a nni ng i n t he f i r s t pl a c e I a l w a ys f e l t t ha t you w a nt e d t o pl a n f or w ha t t he pe opl e w a nt e d W ha t y ou t r i e d t o do w a s s i t w i t h t he c om m uni t y a nd f i gur e out w he r e t he y a r e t r yi ng t o go a nd de ve l op a p l a n f o r t ha t T ha t f or m e I t hi nk i t s w e l c om e I t s a bi g c ha l l e nge b e c a us e t he n you ve t he n got t o f i gur e out w ha t t hi s r oom f ul l o f pe opl e w a nt t o do? A nd you ve g ot t o f i gu r e t ha t out know i ng t ha t t he r e i s goi ng t o be m a ny di f f e r e nt vi e w s bot h be f or e a nd a f t e r t he d i s c us s i on. N ot e ve r yone s goi ng t o you r e ne ve r go i ng t o de a l w i t h hundr e d pe r c e nt of s om e t hi ng. W M : U m huh. B S : Y ou ki nd of hope you c a n ki nd of pul l i t t oge t he r B ut t ha t s w ha t pl a nni ng i s s uppos e d t o be W M : W e l l t ha t br i ngs up a que s t i on I w a s goi ng t o s a ve t i l t he e nd, but i f you c oul d ( a nd m a ybe now w oul d be a good t i m e t o do i t ) but t e l l m e how you got i nt o pl a nni ng? W ha t a t t r a c t e d you t o i t ? [ W ha t ki nd o f ] t r a i ni ng di d you go t hr ough? B S : O ka y. I s t a r t e d out goi ng i nt o c ol l e ge [ s t udyi n g] e ngi ne e r i ng [ but ] m ove d i nt o phys i c s S o I w oul d up w i t h a ba c he l or s de gr e e f r om F l or i da S t a t e i n phys i c s A s I w a s gr a dua t i ng I w a s l ooki ng a t w ha t t o do W he t he r t o pur s ue t he phys i c s i n t e r m s o f a M a s t e r s or a P h. D W he t he r t o go out i nt o t he f i e l d a nd a ppl y t ha t o r do s om e t hi ng e l s e I s t a r t e d l ooki ng a t pl a nni ng a s s om e t hi ng t ha t [ I c oul d do] I w a s i nt e r vi e w i ng a nd f ound t ha t w he n I w a s i nt e r vi e w i ng w i t h a phys i c s ba c kgr ound t ha t t he y w e r e onl y i nt e r e s t e d i n t e c hni c a l t hi ngs you di d. Y ou w e r e vi e w e d a s a n e gghe a d, or j us t not [ t he y di dn t c ons i de r ] a ny of t he hum a n a s pe c t T ha t s t a r t e d m a ki ng m e ne r vous be c a us e I a l s o ha d j obs t ha t w e r e t e c hni c a l j o bs w he r e I s a w pe opl e h a d c ha nge d ove r t i m e a nd be c a m e m or e t e c hni c a l e ve n t ha t s t a r t e d out [ a s ] w e l l r ou nde d [ i ndi v i dua l s ] a nd be c a m e m o r e t e c hni c a l I t hought a bout i t [ a nd] t hough t ha t di dn t s ound v e r y us e f ul s o I w e nt a nd l ooke d a t pl a nni ng a nd d i d a n i nt e r ns hi p i n pl a nni ng be f o r e I w e nt t o t he pl a nni ng s c hool a nd f ound t ha t i t w a s m uc h m o r e ba s e d on c om m uni c a t i on a nd w or ki ng w i t h pe opl e a nd t ha t s i de of t hi ngs I a l s o s a w w i t h pl a nni ng t ha t you h a d t e c hni c a l pa r t s t o i t w he r e you di dn t ha ve t o l e a ve be hi nd w ha t I ha d a l r e a dy l e a r ne d. S o I t hought t ha t w oul d r e a l l y be p r e t t y c ool t o s t a r t w or ki ng w i t h t he c om m uni t i e s a nd ki nd of s or t o f f ul f i l l i ng t ha t opt i on, [ a nd] he l pi ng pe opl e out I f I ha d s t uc k w i t h phys i c s or s om e t hi ng i t w oul d ha ve be e n ve r y na r r ow a nd c l e a r l y de f i ne d. B a s e d on w ha t I w a s doi ng onl y a nd t ha t w a s i t S o t he m o r e I got i nt o t he pl a nni ng t he m or e I r e i nf or c e d [ m y de c i s i on] S o I got t hr ough

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2 1 A l ot of t he p l a nni ng c our s e s i n t he pl a nni ng pr og r a m w ha t w e r e f oc us e d on c om m un i t y t ype t hi ngs B ut I a l s o f ound t ha t I ne ve r l e f t be hi nd t he phys i c s pa r t e s pe c i a l l y w he n I m i n t he t r a ns por t a t i on a r e a t he y ha ve a l l of t he s e c om put e r m ode l s A f t e r a n hour s w or t h o f e xpl a i ni ng a nd de t a i l i ng, e ve r yone i s p r e t t y m uc h s now e d i n t o w h a t s goi ng on a nd I m s t i l l t he r e ( l a ughs ) W M : ( l a ughs ) B S : I m not s now e d. S o i t ha s a be ne f i t t o i t I c a n ge t pa s t t he t e c hni c a l s t uf f a nd ge t t o w ha t r e a l l y i s a m or e m e a ni ngf u l de c i s i on m a ki ng, w ha t e ve r t ha t m i ght be Y ou know w ha t you put i n t he c om put e r you ge t out you ge t t he i nf l ue nc e of t ha t ki nd of c om put e r S o t he t e c hni c a l pa r t s a r e onl y a t ool t he y r e not s uppos e d t o di r e c t e ve r yt hi ng. S o m y t e c hni c a l ba c kgr ound i s us e f ul t ha t w a y. W M : U m huh. Y ou s a i d you w e nt t o pl a nni ng s c hool ? W he r e w a s t ha t ? B S : F l or i da S t a t e W M : O ka y. B S : I w a s a t t he t i m e I w a s gr a dua t i ng w i t h a phys i c s de gr e e a t F l or i da S t a t e T he y w e r e e s t a bl i s hi ng a pl a nni ng pr ogr a m I t w a s a bout one ye a r ol d. S o I j us t e n r ol l e d t he r e a nd s t uc k w i t h i t I t w a s a t w o ye a r pr ogr a m W M : W e l l i t doe s s e e m l i ke t hi s w oul d be a good pl a c e t o c om bi ne t he s c i e nt i f i c a nd t he s oc i a l a s pe c t s of your [ i nt e r e s t s ] B S : I t doe s a nd I m not goi ng t o s a y you c oul dn t a l s o do t ha t w i t h s om e ot he r pr of e s s i ons I ve be e n, f o r i ns t a nc e I d w or k s om e t i m e s w i t h pe opl e i n e ngi ne e r i ng. I t s r e a l l y r e f r e s hi ng w he n you ge t w i t h s om e e ngi ne e r i ng pe opl e w ho ha ve t ha t s a m e a ppr oa c h of w or k i ng w i t h de s i gni ng a pr oj e c t t ha t [ i s ] pe opl e w a nt t o do Y ou ha ve ot he r e ngi ne e r s c om e i n w i t h t he i r bi g t h i c k m a nua l a nd t he y a r e goi ng t o t e l l pe opl e w ha t i t i s S o i t i s not j us t p l a nni ng pr o f e s s i on t ha t ha s t ha t r e w a r d o r oppor t uni t y t o w or k w i t h pe opl e B e c a us e I ve be e n i n t he pl a n ni ng s i de w he r e you d ha ve [ pe opl e ] c om e i n a nd know w ha t t he y w a nt e d t o de s i gn f o r t he c om m uni t y a nd i t di dn t m a t t e r w ha t t he c om m uni t y t hought T he y kne w t hi s w a s w ha t t he c om m uni t y w oul d l i ke i f t he y j us t unde r s t ood [ t he e ngi ne e r ] be t t e r ( c huc kl e s ) W M : S o w he n you f i ni s he d up a t F S U di d you c o m e r i ght he r e t o C l e a r w a t e r ? B S : A c t ua l l y w ha t i t w a s be f o r e I w e nt t o pl a nni n g s c hool I w e nt ove r t o H i l l s bor ough C ount y a nd ha d a j ob t he r e f or t he s um m e r a s a pl a nni ng i nt e r n. S o I k i nd of s a w w ha t

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2 2 pl a nni ng w a s a bout T he n ha l f w a y t hr ough t he pl a nni ng pr ogr a m t he r e i s w ha t t he y c a l l a n i nt e r ns hi p, du r i ng t he s um m e r I i nt e r ne d a t t he r e gi ona l pl a nni ng c ounc i l dow n he r e t he T a m pa B a y R e gi ona l P l a nni ng C ounc i l T he n w he n I gr a dua t e d, m y f i r s t ye a r out w a s a ye a r w i t h t he r e gi ona l pl a nni ng c ounc i l T he n I g ot a c ha nc e t o c om e he r e a s t he di vi s i on he a d f or pl a nni ng. O ne of t he t hi ngs I f ound w he n I w a s a t t he r e gi on a l pl a nni ng w a s [ t ha t i t w a s ] a good ove r a l l vi e w of t hi ngs but I w a s n t s ur e i f I w a s go i ng t o be ga i ni ng m o r e s ki l l s a f t e r t he f i r s t ye a r I t l ooke d l i ke I w a s goi ng t o be doi ng a n upda t e of w ha t I di d t he f i r s t ye a r I f you w e r e i nvol ve d i n t he l oc a l pr og r a m you w e r e e nga ge d i n w ha t w a s ha ppe ni ng. I r e a l i z e d t ha t s [ w ha t I w a nt e d] I m e nt i one d e a r l i e r a bout w a nt i ng t o w or k w i t h t he c om m i t t e e s W he n I w a s i n t he r e gi on a l ba s i s I w a s n t a bl e t o be a s e nga ge d i n t he c om m uni t y a s I w a nt e d S o I r e a l i z e d t ha t you r e xpe r i e nc e w oul d be c um ul a t i ve a t t he l oc a l l e ve l w hi l e your e xpe r i e nc e a t t he r e gi ona l ba s i s w oul d be r e pe t i t i v e Y ou w oul dn t ge t a n oppor t un i t y f o r a ne w e x pe r i e nc e O nc e you ha d f i gu r e d out how t o do e ve r yt hi ng you d j us t do i t ove r a ga i n. I m not s a yi ng t ha t c r i t i c a l l y, I w a s j us t l ook i ng f or a not he r l e ve l of e nga ge m e nt W M : Y ou w a nt e d m or e o f a c ha l l e nge a nd oppor t u ni t y. B S : A ha nds on ki nd of f e e l W M : S o you c a m e he r e i n 1970? B S : 1970. W M : W e l l t hi s i s a bi g que s t i on, but how ha ve yo u s e e n t hi s c om m uni t y, I gue s s P i ne l l a s C ount y, c ha nge i n t hos e t h i r t y s i x ye a r s ? B S : Y e s [ i t s c ha nge d] qui t e a bi t t hough I t hi nk i t s a l l be e n good I m not goi ng t o s a y i t s a l l be c a us e of pl a nni ng b ut t he r e w a s qui t e a bi t of t ha t Y ou c a n s e e a l ot of t he t hi ngs I w oul d ve hope d w e w oul d pr e s e r ve [ t ha t ] w e di d p r e s e r ve W e pr oba bl y di d, f a i r l y e a r l y on but s om e de ns i t y l i m i t s i n a nd s om e t hi ng s l i ke t ha t s o e ve n t hough pe opl e f e e l i t s c onge s t i on a nd how m uc h de ve l opm e nt w e ve ha d doubl e t ha t ve r y e a s i l y. I ki nd of t h i nk t ha t t he c ount y s gone a l ong w a y i n t e r m s o f i t s de ve l opm e nt a nd i t s be e n a n e m pha s i s on qua l i t y of l i f e a l l a l on g, w hi c h I f e e l pr e t t y c o m f or t a bl e a bout I nt e r e s t i ngl y t hough, I w oul d t h i nk ba c k on t he r e w e r e s om e i ni t i a t i ve s t ha t I w oul d ha ve be e n or w e w oul d ha ve be e n pr opos i ng a nd w or ki ng w i t h. I m not s ur e i f w e di d i t i t w oul d ha ve be e n a good i de a or not I l l gi ve you a n e xa m pl e I n 1972 w e ha d a p r opos a l f or a m ono r a i l i n t he c o unt y, a c om pl e t e l oop.

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2 3 W M : U m huh. B S : I t di dn t go a nyw he r e S o you w onde r i f w e h a d be e n s uc c e s s f ul i n pr om ot i ng t ha t t he n w ha t w oul d t he c ount y ha ve l ooke d l i ke ? I m not s ur e i t w oul d ha ve be e n good be c a us e t hos e t hi ngs do pr om ot e de ns i t y a nd t h i ng s l i ke t ha t S o you s om e t i m e s ki nd of r e a l i z e w ha t y ou r e r u nni ng w i t h, you ha ve t o r e t hi nk. I l l gi ve you a n e xa m pl e I n t he m i d 1970s ( be c a us e I w a s i nvol ve d i n t r a ns por t a t i on a s w e l l ) I w a s t he s t a f f di r e c t or f or ( a m ong m y no r m a l r e s pons i bi l i t i e s a s pl a nni ng di r e c t or a nd s o on) t he e xpr e s s w a y a ut hor i t y S o w e ha ve a m a j or e xpr e s s w a y r e f e r e ndum i n our c ount y t o bui l d a nor t h s out h e xpr e s s w a y. I be c a m e one of t he ke y pe opl e i n t he s pe a ke r s bu r e a u, t o go out a nd pr e s e nt t hi s t hi ng [ t he nor t h s out h e xpr e s s w a y] I t w a s vot e d dow n 8 t o 1. S o you c a n i m a gi ne i t w a s n t a ve r y pl e a s a nt e xpe r i e nc e be i ng on t he s pe a ke r s bu r e a u, c a us e you c oul d s e e t he vot e be f or e i t w a s goi ng t o ha ppe n. ( c huc kl e s ) B ut t ha t r e a l l y i nf l ue nc e d t he c ount y s f ut u r e de ve l opm e nt T ha t m e a nt w e w e r e not goi ng t o be doi ng t ol l r oa ds or e xpr e s s w a ys t hr ough t he c ount y T he n t he y s a i d, W e r e goi ng t o f oc us on [ H i ghw a y] U S 19 a nd t he e xi s t i ng c or r i do r a nd m a ke t ha t w or k T ha t s goi n g t o be i t T he r e f o r e I w a s out t he r e p r om ot i ng t he i de a o f t hi s w hol e e xpr e s s w a y pr ogr a m but t he n w ha t you ha ve t o do r e t h i nk w he r e you a r e goi ng. S o a s a pr o f e s s i ona l you don t ke e p t a l ki ng m or e a bout e xpr e s s w a ys [ Y ou s a y, ] O ka y, I unde r s t a nd w he r e w e a r e W e l l m ove t o t ha t I n 1990, w he n w e put t he P i ne l l a s T r a i l i n or t he l a t e e i ght i e s I w a s n t r e a l l y s ur e i t t ha t w a s a good or no t you know ? I t w a s j us t t h i ngs l i ke t he w i dt h o f t he t r a i l I t w a s goi ng t o be f i f t e e n f e e t w i de I w a s t hi nki ng T ha t s ound s m or e l i ke a r oa d. I t s houl d be na r r ow e r l i ke t e n f e e t w i de I now know t ha t f i f t e e n [ f e e t ] i s r e a l l y good be c a us e i t m i ni m i z e s c onf l i c t s I a l s o c oul d s e e t he va l ue of a m a j or pr opone nt of t he t r a i l W a y ba c k i n t he be gi nni ng I w a s ki nd of on t he f e nc e a b out i t S o a s a pl a nne r I s or t of a dj us t e d. A ga i n, w i t h t ha t c om m uni t y e nga ge m e nt you s a y, O ka y, t hi s i s w he r e w e r e r e a l l y goi ng. I t i s n t l i ke I ha d a m a j or ph i l os ophi c a l c ha nge I t s m or e t ha t I j us t be t t e r unde r s t ood di r e c t i ona l c ha nge s a nd t hi nk t ha t s w h e r e t he pl a ne r m or e t ha n a nybody e l s e ha s t o ki nd of ha ve t he i r e ye s a nd e a r s ope n a nd be w i l l i ng t o be f l e xi bl e a nd a dj us t t hi ngs a nd t o he l p out w i t h t hi s ne w d i r e c t i o n. H ow do you ge t t he r e ? A s oppos e d t o s t i l l poi nt i ng out t o pe opl e t ha t i t w a s a m i s t a ke be c a us e i t s di f f e r e nt f r o m be f or e or s om e t hi ng l i ke t ha t I t s a r e a l c ha l l e nge t o be ope n a nd unde r s t a nd w ha t t he s e ne w t hi ngs a r e s o a s t o he l p t he m I m us t s a y not a l l ne w t h i ngs a r e good you know you ha ve t o w o r k w i t h t ha t a nd know w ha t you know w he n t o m a ke t hos e ki nd s of j udge m e nt s

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2 4 W M : I n t a l ki ng a bout how t he c ount y ha s c ha nge d ove r a l l one of t he t h i ngs I r e a d i s t ha t t he r e w e r e i ni t i a l l y a l ot o f pl a c e s f o r pe opl e t o s p e nd t he w i nt e r he r e a nd um r e t i r e m e nt c om m uni t i e s but t he c ount y w a s m ovi n g m or e t ow a r ds hi gh w a ge i ndus t r y o r s om e t hi ng l i ke t ha t A m I unde r s t a ndi ng t ha t c or r e c t l y? B S : W e l l i t s r e a l l y ha r d t o ye a h w e f or i ns t a n c e i n t he 1970s w e w e r e s t i l l a m a j or da i r y pr oduc e r W e s t i l l ha d a l o t of c i t r us [ pr oduc t i on] O ve r t i m e t he de ve l opm e nt i nt e r e s t s r e m ove d t ha t B ut a t t he t i m e w e a l s o ha d m a j o r c or po r a t i ons l i ke H one yw e l l a nd i ndus t r i e s l i ke t ha t W ha t ha ppe ns i s ove r t i m e ( w hi c h i s s om e t hi ng n ot t o m a ny pe opl e r e a l i z e ) w e ha ve ha d a f oc us on t our i s m a nd a l w a ys ha ve B ut w e ve a l s o ha d a l ot of i ndus t r i e s i n t he c ount y. T he y r e not not i c e a bl e be c a us e t he y a r e l i ke c l e a n i ndus t r i e s S o pe opl e don t not i c e t he m t ha t m uc h W e r e s t i l l l i ke s om e of t he m a j or um I ve f or g ot t e n w ha t c a t e gor i e s t h e y a r e but w e r e s t i l l l i ke num be r one i n m a nuf a c t ur i ng e m p l oym e nt of c e r t a i n ki nds o f t e c hnol ogi e s P e opl e don t t hi nk o f t ha t i n P i ne l l a s C ount y. W e ve got a w hol e i ndus t r i a l be l t i n t he m i ddl e o f t he c ount y M os t of our va c a nt l a nd, ye t t o be de ve l op e d, i s i n t he m i ddl e of t he c ount y [ z one d a s ] i ndus t r i a l c om m e r c i a l l a nd. W hi c h i s k i nd of i nt e r e s t i ng i n t ha t ( c huc kl e s ) your f ut ur e i s s t i l l t he r e i n t e r m s of t he e ngi ne you w a nt t o r un i t w i t h. B ut I w oul d s a y w e s t i l l c ont i nue t o be r e a l l y i nt e r e s t e d i n i ndus t r y. B e c a us e w e ki nd of w he n I m e nt i one d t he w hol e i de a a bout t he e l e m e nt l i ve w or k a nd pl a y t he e m pha s i s i s on good j obs T he r e w a s a de ba t e a w hi l e a go a bout A r e w e doi ng t ha t ? A r e w e [ e m pha s i z i ng i ndus t r i a l j obs ] a t t he e xpe ns e of t he t our i s t i ndus t r y? I d p r oba bl y s a y, not T ha t s not r e a l l y goi ng t o go a w a y. B ut i t s d oe s n t ha ve t o be a n e i t he r or p r opos i t i on. A l t hough s om e pe opl e t hi nk W ha t a r e you t r yi ng t o pr o m ot e ? W he r e w oul d you put your pr om ot i ng m one y? B ut you don t ne c e s s a r i l y t he m one y us e d t o p r om ot e t ou r i s m you don t ne c e s s a r i l y pr om ot e i ndus t r y t he s a m e w a y, s o I m not s ur e t he t w o c om pe t e B ut I t hi nk now w i t h ou r de ve l opm e nt pr e s s ur e t h e r e w a s pr e s s ur e t o s a y, R e z one i ndus t r i a l l a nds t o r e s i de nt i a l a nd c om m e r c i a l W e j us t r e c e nt l y e s t a bl i s he d a pol i c y s a yi ng t ha t w e r e not goi ng t o do t ha t I t ha s t o be hi ghl y j us t i f i e d i f you r e goi ng t o m ove f r om i ndus t r i a l t o s om e t hi ng e l s e Y ou c a n t put i n our c ount y t he r e i s no m o r e e l bow r oom t o pu t i n ne w i ndus t r i a l l a nds s o you v e got t o hol d on t o w ha t you ve got T he pr e s s ur e w a s t ha t t he r e i s i ndus t r i a l l a nd t ha t c a n be us e d f or i ndus t r y. H ow e ve r um i f t he y ve got t he opt i on o f c onve r t i n g i t or s e l l i ng i t f or hi gh de ns i t y r e s i de nt i a l or f or W a l M a r t s a nd t hi ngs t he n t he p r i c e of t ha t l a n d i s not i n t he i ndus t r i a l c a t e gor y t he pr i c e of t ha t l a nd i s hi ghe r i n t he s e ot he r oppor t uni t i e s W ha t w e r e a l i z e d w a s i f w e s a y

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2 5 i t s of f t he t a bl e f or t hos e c ha nge s t he n you m a ke t ha t l a nd m or e r e a s ona bl y pr i c e d ove r t i m e ba c k t o t he i ndus t r i a l us e t ha t you w a nt S o t he r e a r e a l ot of dyna m i c s t ha t ha ve be e n goi n g on ove r t he pa s t c oupl e o f ye a r s i n our c ount y on t ha t B e c a us e w e w a nt t o ke e p i ndus t r i e s a nd w e w a nt t o a dd i ndus t r i e s W M : U m huh. Y ou s a y t he r e i s p r e s s ur e t o c ha nge t he i ndus t r i a l z one d l a nd t o [ l a nd z one d f or ] r e s i de nt i a l W ho a ppl i e s t ha t p r e s s ur e ? B S : T w o g r oups t he pr ope r t y ow ne r s t ha t w a nt t o m a ke m or e m one y of f of t he l a nd, a nd obvi ous l y t he pe opl e t ha t a r e i n t he c ondo i ndus t r i a l de ve l opm e nt bus i ne s s t he W a l M a r t c om m uni t y. N ot j us t t he m but t he c om m e r c i a l pe o pl e t ha t w a nt t o pr om ot e t ha t S o you ve go t a n e s t a bl i s he d i ndus t r y o f de ve l opi n g t hi ngs a nd t ha t s om e t i m e s a pr ope r t y ow ne r w i l l be s i t t i ng t he r e t hi nk i ng, I d l i ke t o do t hi s A nd t he y l l [ t he de ve l opm e nt c om m uni t y] c om e i n a nd go Y e a h, but you l l ge t m uc h m or e a be t t e r r e t ur n f o r your l a nd i f you do t hi s t ha t a nd t he ot he r t hi ng. S o you ve go t t hi s de ve l opm e nt i ndus t r y g r oup t ha t w i l l a l w a ys be pus hi ng f or t he hi ghe s t a nd be s t us e ( i n t he i r m i nd ) o f w ha t e ve r t h e l a nd i s A nd i t s us ua l l y not i ndus t r i a l Y ou know you c a n j us t do m or e a nd s e l l m or e T he r e f or e i f you ha ve i t w i de ope n a nd you ke e p s a yi ng, W ha t e ve r you w a nt t o do w i t h t ha t pr ope r t y W e l l ha ve a m i xe d us e t hi ng w he r e y ou c a n do [ r e s i de nt i a l ] c om m e r c i a l or i ndus t r i a l Y ou know you r e pr oba bl y not goi ng t o ha ve m uc h i ndus t r y, be c a us e t ha t s not a r e ve nue p r oduc e r c om pa r e d t o t he ot he r s A nd ye t f o r t he ove r a l l c om m uni t y i t s pr oba bl y t he bi gge s t r e ve nue pr oduc e r be c a us e i t s t ha t s w he r e you r j obs a r e f or t he l ong ha ul f o r t he ove r a l l c om m uni t y be ne f i t B ut f or t he pr ope r t y ow ne r i t s not a nd f o r t he de v e l ope r i t s not W M : S o t he n a ga i n t ha t ge t s ba c k t o publ i c ve r s us pr i va t e i nt e r e s t s I j us t w a nt t o m a ke s ur e I un de r s t a nd you but i n l o oki ng a t r e z oni ng t he i ndus t r i a l l a nd t o ot he r us e s t he pl a nni ng c om m i s s i on i s s a yi ng, N o, ke e p i t z one d f o r i ndus t r i a l A nd t he ot he r s t he de ve l opm e nt i ndus t r y, i s s a yi ng, N o c ha nge t he z oni ng f o r r e s i de nt i a l or c om m e r c i a l S o a l l o f t he s e pe opl e a r e t a l ki ng t o t he c ount y B oa r d of C om m i s s i one r s r i ght ? B S : Y e s W M : S o, t e l l m e

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2 6 B S : S o w ha t ha ppe ne d w a s w e r e a l i z e d t ha t w a s t he pr e s s ur e t ha t w a s out t he r e W e r e a l i z e d t ha t t he be ne f i t t o t he t o t he i ndus t r i a l l a nd w a s a c om m uni t y be ne f i t T he r e f o r e w e ne e de d a c om m uni t y w i de pol i c y on t ha t a bout pr e s e r vi ng i t U nl e s s i t ha d s om e ove r a l l be ne f i t i f you w e r e goi ng t o c ha nge i t B ut i t ha d t o be a be ne f i t no t j us t t o t he pr ope r t y ow ne r but or t he pe opl e t ha t pr opos e d s o m e t hi ng. I t ha d t o be a be ne f i t t o t he c om m uni t y. I t w a s n t t o s a y w e d ne ve r r e z one i t W e j us t s a i d t he t e s t s ha d t o be a l i t t l e bi t hi ghe r t ha t oh W e w a nt t o do t hi s I t ha d t o do w i t h ye a r s a go w e ha d a c ount y c om m i s s i one r w ho t he n w e nt t o D C A S t e ve S e ve r t ( ? ? ) H e ki nd o f e s t a bl i s he d a n a ppr oa c h f or t he c ount y w hi c h w e s t i l l r un w i t h. T he pr e s um pt i on i s t he pl a n i s j us t i f i a bl e a nd good, c a l l e d pl a n de s i gna t i on. Y ou ha ve t o s how a s a de ve l ope r or pr ope r t y ow ne r w h y you w a nt t o c ha nge i t w hy i t s a good i de a T ypi c a l l y you r e f o r c e d i nt o t he ot he r r ol l Y ou ha ve t o e xpl a i n t o t he de ve l ope r w hy t he i r pr opos a l i s n t good. S o t he y j us t s a i d t he pl a n s va l i d t ha t s be e n i n pl a c e f or t w e nt y or t hi r t y ye a r s T he r e f o r e i t s good. J us t i f y t o m e w hy i t s a pub l i c be ne f i t t o c ha nge i t ? T ha t I t hi nk i s a good t e s t a nd pr oc e dur e O r t he ot he r w a y, you c a n j us t s e e i t a s a t r a p t o ge t hi m t o W e l l oka y w e c a n t de ny you r p r oj e c t be c a us e you know s uc h a nd s uc h [ l i ke ] i m pa c t on t he r oa d, ( o r w ha t e ve r ) W ha t ha ppe ns i s um I t hi nk t he one dow ns i de I w oul d s a y i n t he w hol e M a na ge d G r ow t h [ P l a n s ] e m pha s i s on c onc ur r e nc y o f f a c i l i t i e s a nd i nf r a s t r uc t ur e i s t ha t pl a nni ng ge t s t r a ppe d i nt o a t hought p r oc e s s of i m pa c t s e va l ua t i ons a nd m i t i ga t i ons onl y Y ou r e not l ooki ng a t w ha t s t he a pp r opr i a t e de s i gna t i on f or t he p r ope r t y i n t e r m s o f c om m uni t y i nt e r e s t Y ou r e l ooki ng a t C a n t he y s ol ve t he t r a f f i c pr ob l e m t he y ve c r e a t e d? I s t he r e e nough w a t e r f or t he m ? a nd a l l of t hi s B y t he t i m e you g e t i n t he D R I pr oc e s s ( t he D e ve l opm e nt a nd R e gi ona l I m pa c t ) i t s a l l a bout t ha t t he de ve l opm e nt of r e gi ona l i m pa c t S o i f you c a n ge t a you ha ve a p r ope r t y ow ne r go e s i n, doe s t he m a j o r e va l ua t i on o f t he i r pr oj e c t ; i de nt i f i e s a l l t he s ol ut i ons f o r a l l of t h e i r i m pa c t s t he n i t s pr e s um e d you c oul d a ppr ove i t e ve n i f t he us e s ha d not hi ng t o d o w i t h w ha t t he c om m uni t y w a s i nt e r e s t e d i n t o be gi n w i t h. W M : U m huh. B S : S o, I t hi nk t ha t s w ha t s be e n t he dow ns i de o f t he M a na ge d G r ow t h A c t I t h i nk t ha t i s t he c ur r e nt i s s ue t ha t pe opl e now ha ve i s t he y r e m or e i nt e r e s t e d i n w ha t a r e t he us e s of i n t he c om m uni t y; w ha t s good f or t he c om m un i t y? N ot j us t t he i m pa c t s a l one but you know I s i t good t o ha ve t hi s s hoppi ng c e nt e r he r e w he n w e ve got one ove r

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2 7 t he r e ? O r e ve n i f t he r oa ds a r e good a l l a r ound i t e ve n i f you put i t i n; w oul d you r e a l l y ne e d t w o s hoppi ng c e nt e r s w i t hi n a m i l e o f e a c h ot he r ? Y ou know ? T hos e ki nds of t h i ngs a r e t hi ngs t ha t I t hi nk pe opl e a r e m or e i nt e r e s t e d i n t a l ki ng a bout T he y r e m uc h obs e s s e d i n t h e de t a i l s of p l a nni ng i n t he pa s t l a s t t e n [ t o] t w e nt y ye a r s a nd t he de t a i l e d pr oc e s s a nd pr oc e dur e s of e va l ua t i ons a nd l ooki ng a t i m pa c t s L i ke I s a i d a de ve l ope r c om e s i n a nd he j us t goe s t hr ough hi s c he c kl i s t of t e n or t w e nt y t hi ngs a nd s a ys I s ol ve d t hi s p r obl e m I s ol ve d t h a t pr obl e m S o w ha t s t he pl a nne r s pr obl e m ? ( c huc kl e s ) Y ou know ? W M : A l s o t ha t ge t s ba c k t o p r ope r t y r i ght s w he r e J ohn D oe w ho ow ns t hi s p r ope r t y w hi c h i s c ur r e nt l y z one d f or i ndus t r i a l us e but c oul d gr e a t l y i nc r e a s e hi s pr of i t s by r e z oni ng i t f o r r e s i de nt i a l or c om m e r c i a l I t s l i ke hi s a dva nt a ge ve r s us t he c om m uni t y s be ne f i t B S : R i ght B ut t he i nt e r e s t i ng t hi ng i s i t s be e n a m i s nom e r a l i t t l e bi t a bout pr ope r t y r i ght s H e ha s t he a bi l i t y t o de ve l op hi s l a nd. Y ou ha v e n t t a ke n a nyt hi ng f r om hi m ; t he r e z oni ng i s not a pr ope r t y i s s ue pe r s e I f you ge t i nt o gol f c our s e s i t ge t s a l i t t l e bi t t r i c ky a bout i f you ve got a s t a nda r d us e i t j us t m e a ns he w a nt s t o m a ke m or e of hi s pr ope r t y. W M : T ha t w a s t he que s t i on I put t o hi m W he r e d o your p r ope r t y r i ght s [ e nd? ] T he i nf l ue nc e of you r p r ope r t y e xt e nds be yond i t s boun da r i e s W he r e doe s one pe r s on s pr ope r t y r i ght s s t a r t a nd a not he r s s t op? B S : Y e s I unde r s t a nd a nd t ha t s w he n you ge t t he c om m uni t y i nt e r e s t c om i ng i nt o p l a y. S om e t i m e s i t s not e ve n a dj a c e nt I t c oul d be w ha t s ha ppe ni ng on t ha t pr ope r t y m a y ha ve t he c om m uni t y i n t e r e s t a t t a c he d t o i t a nd t yp i c a l l y doe s B ut e s pe c i a l l y i f you ve got a dj a c e nt i m pa c t s B ut t he t hi ng a bout c om m uni t y p l a nni ng i s i t s not a bo ut t he i m pa c t s a l one I t s a bout W ha t doe s t he c om m uni t y w a nt t he r e ? W ha t i s good f or t he c om m uni t y? A nd i t m a y be s om e t hi ng t ha t t he p r ope r t y ow ne r m a y or m a y not ha ve w a nt e d. S o B ut you ki nd o f ha ve t o w or k t he t w o t oge t he r I d on t w a nt t o e m pha s i z e w ha t s good f or t he c om m uni t y ha s t o w or k e xa c t l y I t s got t o be a bl e nd be t w e e n t he t w o I t us ua l l y doe s w or k t ha t w e l l but t he t h i ng i s you j us t c a n t do t h e hi ghe s t a nd be s t us e Y ou ve got t o do w ha t s good f or t he c om m uni t y m a t c h t ha t a ga i ns t t he hi ghe s t a nd be s t us e W M : I m e a n, i t s a c om pl e x i s s ue W he r e doe s one pe r s on s r i ght s s t op a nd a not he r one s be gi n? I t s ha r d t o a ns w e r t ha t [ que s t i on] O ne of t he t hi ngs I r e a d i s t ha t [ a ] pr obl e m a r ound he r e i s a f f or da bl e hous i ng, f or pe opl e w ho w or k he r e

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2 8 B S : U m huh. W M : D o you t hi nk t ha t w i l l c ont i nue t o be a s i gni f i c a nt i s s ue ? B S : Y e s I t hi nk i t w i l l be A nd I t h i nk s om e c ha n ge i n t he t h i nki ng i s goi ng t o s t a r t t o oc c ur B ut i t ha s t o do w i t h t he w hol e e c onom i c s a nd i t ha s t o do w i t h pr ope r t y va l ue s goi ng hi ghe r a nd t he r e f o r e r a i s i ng t he pr i c e o f l a nd a nd de ve l opm e nt B ut t he r e a r e ot he r c ount e r ba l a nc i ng t hi ngs t o t ha t I de f i ni t e l y t hi nk t ha t a f f or da bl e h ous i ng w i l l be a n i s s ue i n t he f ut u r e B ut i t c oul d be t he i de a of w e ve ha d m obi l e hom e pa r ks t ha t s om e pe opl e w oul d l i ke t o e l i m i na t e A nd ye t i f you e l i m i na t e t he m t ha t i s a f f or da bl e f or c e not j us t f or t he r e t i r e d pe opl e but f or a nybody i n a ny a ge g r oup. A nd t he i s s ue w a s W e w a nt t o e l i m i na t e t he m be c a us e of hur r i c a ne t h r e a t s B ut t he n t he ot he r s i de o f t he c oi n w e ve now j us t r e c e nt l y r e l e a s e d a r e por t t ha t s how s how t he m ode r n ve r s i ons of m a nuf a c t ur e d hous i ng ( m obi l e uni t s ) [ c a n] a c t ua l l y w i t hs t a nd s t or m s be t t e r t ha n hous e s t ha t a r e bui l t on s i t e S o t ha t m a ke s [ t he m ] a ve r y a f f or da bl e opt i on t o l ook a t T he y r e us i ng di f f e r e nt m a t e r i a l s t ha t a r e c he a pe r Y ou know ? C onc r e t e s t he m os t e xpe ns i ve t hi ng. W ood e ve n t hough t he w hol e bot t om i s dr oppi ng out of t he m a r ke t on t ha t S o de pe ndi ng on w ha t m a t e r i a l s you us e a nd a r e you i n a n i nf l a t e d m a r ke t or a de pr e s s e d m a r ke t ? I t hi nk t he r e a r e a l ot of opt i ons B ut [ f o r us ] a f f o r da bl e hous i ng i s pr oba bl y m or e o f a c ha l l e nge t ha n f or s om e of t he ot he r s be c a us e w e don t ha ve t he hi nt e r l a nds t ha t a r e c he a pe r U nl e s s w e s or t o f ge t ou r a c t t oge t he r i n f i gur i ng out t o m a i nt a i n [ a f f or da bl e hous i ng] w i t hi n ( a nd i t s got t o do a l ot w i t h e xi s t i ng hous i ng s t oc k a nd, a ga i n, r e pl a c i ng ol d hom e s a nd do i ng t hi ngs l i ke t hi s S om e pe opl e ha ve c r i t i c i z e d t he i de a t ha t w e c a n a ppr ove a pr oj e c t a nd r e q ui r e a f f o r da bl e hous i ng a s pa r t of i t A nd pe opl e ha ve s a i d T ha t s not f a i r be c a us e one pe r c e nt a ge of hous i ng i s s ubs i di z i ng t he ot he r pe r c e nt a ge o f hous i ng i n t he de ve l opm e nt pr oj e c t S o I don t know I t s a c om pl i c a t e d W M : W e l l t ha t s w ha t m a ke s i t i nt e r e s t i ng. B S : I t doe s W M : I f i t w a s t oo s i m pl e a nyone c oul d do i t B S : T r ue W M : W ha t do you s e e f o r t he f ut ur e ? B S : C a n I a ns w e r t ha t que s t i on a f t e r I m a ke a pi t s t op?

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2 9 W M : S ur e L e t m e put t h i s on [ pa us e ] paus e i n r e c or di ng W M : O ka y, w e d a s ke d a bout w ha t do you s e e f or t he f ut ur e i n P i ne l l a s C ount y? B S : I s e e p r oba bl y m uc h m or e e m pha s i s on our e x i s t i ng popul a t i on a nd ou r e xi s t i ng us e s a nd how t o i m pr ove t he m I don t s e e us f oc us e d, l i ke s om e ot he r a r e a s a r e on f ut ur e gr ow t h a nd how t o de a l w i t h t ha t I t s goi ng t o be m or e on qua l i t y of l i f e t hi ngs ; pr ovi di ng t hi ngs t ha t t he e xi s t i ng popul a t i on r e a l l y w a nt s B ut a l s o f oc us e d on l i ke be t t e r j obs p r e s e r vi ng t he e nvi r onm e nt P ut t i ng f a c i l i t i e s i n t ha t t he pe opl e r e a l l y w a nt A l s o, pr ob a bl y, m uc h m o r e e m pha s i s on l i s t e ni ng t o t he popul a t i on a nd w or ki ng w i t h t he m T he r e a s on I m e nt i on t ha t i s i f you t he n go t t hi s s t r ong f oc us on your e xi s t i ng t ha t m e a ns your c ur r e nt c om m uni t y, w hi c h m e a ns you ve got t o be l i s t e ni ng m o r e t o t ha t W he r e i f you w e r e i n a n e m e r gi ng gr ow t h a r e a w i t h a l l va c a nt l a nd i t s a l i t t l e m or e W ho i s t he c ons t i t ue nc y f or t ha t ? Y ou l i s t e n t o i t i t s a l i t t l e l e s s t o be he a r d ( c huc kl e s ) s o t o s pe a k. I m e a n you ve t he e nvi r on m e nt a l gr oups a nd s o on but [ you pr oba b l y ha ve ] a hi ghe r l e ve l of a c c ount a bi l i t y i f y ou r e bui l t out l i ke w e a r e a nd t he n you ha ve de ve l opm e nt pr e s s ur e s i n a r e a s t ha t a r e a l r e a dy de ve l ope d. E s t a bl i s he d c om m uni t i e s a nd e s t a bl i s he d i nt e r e s t s a nd us e s a n d s o on l i ke t ha t S o I s e e m uc h m o r e f oc us on l i s t e n[ i ng] t o t he pu bl i c a nd w or ki ng w i t h t he m on t hi ngs a nd hope f ul l y m a ki ng t he c ount y a nd e ve n be t t e r p l a c e t ha n i t i s now W M : I m e a n you t a l k a bout t he c ount y i s not c o m pl e t e l y bui l t ou t but t he r e i s not a w hol e l ot of r oom t o e xpa nd i nt o, s o t he y w oul d ha ve t o s or t o f r e de f i ne r e de ve l op w ha t s he r e I s t ha t [ r i ght ] ? B S : I t h i nk w ha t i t i s t ha t i n F l o r i da a nd ot he r pa r t s of our c ount r y w e ve be c om e f oc us e d on de ve l opm e nt a s a bs ol ut e l y ne c e s s a r y. Y e t i f you l ook a t t he hi s t or y of de ve l opm e nt i n ot he r a r e a s t he r e a r e a l ot of a r e a s t ha t ha ve n t ha d a popul a t i on g r ow t h a nd ye t ha ve a vi b r a nt e c onom y. S o t he r e i s m o r e t o i t t ha n j us t bul l doz e r s a nd pu t t i ng bui l di ngs i n. T he r e a r e s om e ot he r t hi ngs t ha t c om e i n a nd m a ke y our e c onom y w or k. I t h i nk t ha t s w ha t you ve got ot he r i ndus t r i e s t ha t ha ve j obs pr oduc i ng t hi ngs t ha t a r e n t ne c e s s a r i l y c onc r e t e S o I t hi nk t he r e i s s om e of t h a t w e d pr oba bl y ge t a l ot m o r e i nt o A not he r t hi ng, t hough t ha t I w a nt t o m e nt i on t ha t i s i n t he P l a nni ng t o S t a y c onc l us i on i s t ha t e ve n t hough P i ne l l a s C ount y ha d a n e s t a bl i s he d popul a t i on f ut ur e i n t e r m s of not e xpa ndi ng. E ve n m or e s o i t s i m po r t a nt t ha t w e a r e a m a j or r e gi ona l p l a ye r i n t hi ngs A nd a pl a ye r w i t h t he e nt i r e r e gi on i n t e r m s of w ha t go e s on a nd w ha t ha ppe ns N ot onl y do w e t o go t hr ough e ve r ybody e l s e t o g e t t o P i ne l l a s C ount y w e j us t ha ve ve s t e d i nt e r e s t i n w ha t t he ove r a l l e c onom y i s not t o be l e f t be hi nd w i t h a l l o f t ha t S o w e w a nt t o be e nga ge d w i t h w ha t f u t ur e j obs t he r e a r e be c a us e pe opl e m i ght l i ve i n t he ot he r c ount i e s a nd t he n c om e he r e A nd t he r e a r e s t i l l t h os e pe opl e w ho l i ve he r e a nd w or k

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3 0 s om e w he r e e l s e S o i t s s or t of be i ng e nga ge d i n t h e r e gi ona l s i t ua t i on, pr oba bl y e ve n m or e [ now ] t ha n i n t he pa s t N ow w e ha ve a ve s t e d i nt e r e s t W he n you be c om e a m a t ur e e c onom y you s or t of h a ve a l ot of e xt e r na l i nf l ue nc e s t ha t a f f e c t you. T ha t s w ha t w e r e c ons c i ous of s o w e w a nt t o be m o r e e nga ge d r e gi ona l l y B e i ng a r e gi ona l l e a de r e nt a i l s e ve r yt hi ng f r om r a i l a nd t r a ns por t a t i on a nd ot he r s ubj e c t s l i ke e nvi r onm e nt a l p r ot e c t i on. W M : U m huh. T he r e s be e n a l ot o f t a l k a bout de v e l opi ng m a s s t r a ns i t a t l e a s t ove r i n H i l l s bor ough C ount y a nd l i ke you s a i d, P i ne l l a s w oul d c e r t a i nl y be i nf l ue nc e d [ by t ha t ] B S : O h ye a h. I n f a c t one of t he m os t obvi ous c o r r i dor s t o de a l w i t h i s w e ha ve t he C S X r a i l l i ne I t goe s f r o m H i l l s bor ough C ount y a nd l oo ps t hr ough P i ne l l a s I t s s or t of c i r c ui t ous w he n i t e nt e r s t he c ount y, but by t he t i m e i t hi t s dow nt ow n C l e a r w a t e r f r om C l e a r w a t e r dow n t o S t [ P e t e r s bu r g] i t s a di a gona l s t r a i ght l i ne I t s t he qui c ke s t w a y t o ge t f r om C l e a r w a t e r t o S t P e t e a s t he c r ow f l i e s O ne of t he c or r i do r s t ha t m a ke s t he m os t s e ns e r a i l w i s e i n t he r e gi on, i s t he C l e a r w a t e r t o S t P e t e l i ne T he r e f or e w he n t he que s t i on c a m e u p w e ve pr e t t y m uc h ha ve r e f oc us e d our i nt e r e s t t o a c t ua l l y l ook a t t ha t c or r i do r a nd t a l ki ng t o C S X a bout w ha t t o do w i t h i t A l s o w e w e r e t a l ki ng a bout doi ng i t i n t he c ont e xt of a r e gi ona l gr oup a r e gi ona l a ut hor i t y, know i ng t ha t a s you l ook a t r a i l i t s s om e t hi ng t ha t ne e ds t o be l ooke d a t on a r e gi ona l ba s i s B ut i f i t doe s n t ha ppe n r e gi ona l l y a t l e a s t w e d w a nt t o do i t ou r s e l ve s B ut t hi nk w e d w a nt t o do i t a ga i n t ha t w hol e t h i n g a bout w a nt i ng t o be pa r t of t he r e gi on, a r e gi ona l l e a de r i s t h a t w e r e w i l l i ng t o d o w ha t e ve r i t i s t ha t w or ks w i t h e ve r ybody e l s e B ut i t s ur e m a ke s s om e s e ns e i n ou r f ut ur e t o be f i ndi ng s om e ot he r w a y t o m ove be s i de s t he a ut om obi l e W M : O h a bs ol ut e l y. I c oul d s t a r t t a l ki ng a bout [ t h e i l l s of ] t he c a r now a nd not s t op. S o I don t t o do t ha t I ve be e n t h r ow i ng que s t i ons a t you f or t he pa s t ho ur a nd a ha l f i s t he r e a nyt h i ng you w a nt t o c om m e nt on t ha t I ha ve n t a s ke d a bout ? I know t he r e i s a l ot o f t e r r i t or y t o c ove r but um B S : N o, I w oul d r e a l l y s a y you ve c ove r e d i t pr e t t y w e l l P r oba bl y t he onl y f i l l i n t he ga ps c om m e nt I w oul d m a ke i s t ha t t he r e f or e i n t e r m s of f ut u r e de ve l opm e nt w ha t w e s e e i s i n t he i ndus t r i a l be l t a r e a i n t he m i ddl e of t h e c ount y. A l s o, i n ou r dow nt ow n a r e a s w he r e w e r e t r yi ng t o f o c us ne w de ve l opm e nt a nd t he r e s t T he a dva nt a ge t o t ha t i s be i ng a bl e t o do i t on l i va bl e c om m uni t y ba s i s B e c a us e your dow nt ow ns a r e w he r e you ha ve t he non a ut om obi l e f oc us B ut i f you r e goi ng t o i n c r e a s e [ popul a t i on] de ns i t i e s t he r e you ne e d t o m a ke s u r e you ve go t pe de s t r i a n m ove m e nt t r a i l c onne c t i ons t r a ns i t a nd

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3 1 t hi ngs l i ke t ha t T he r e f or e I t hi nk ou r f oc us of t he f ut ur e i s goi ng t o be t ha t T he n how t o c om e up w i t h s om e a l t e r na t i ve w a ys t o m ove a r ou nd be s i de s t he a ut om obi l e S o I t hi nk you ve pr e t t y w e l l c ove r e d t he ga m ut W M : O ka y. A ga i n t ha nk you f o r t a ki ng t he t i m e t o t a l k w i t h m e A nd I a l w a ys r e m i nd pe opl e t ha t t he i n f or m a t i on you ve s ha r e d w i t h w i l l be de pos i t e d i n t he S pe c i a l C ol l e c t i ons of t he U ni ve r s i t y [ of S out h F l or i da s ] L i br a r y I a l s o ha ve a r e l e a s e f or m t ha t I ha ve t o a s k you t o s i gn, s o t ha t pe opl e c a n ha ve a c c e s s t o t hi s i nt e r vi e w B S : T ha t s f i ne W M : O ka y. A nd I ve be e n phot og r a phi ng e ve r yon e I ve i n t e r vi e w D o you m i nd i f I t a ke your pi c t ur e ? B S : N o pr obl e m S u r e W M : O ka y G r e a t L e t m e s t op t hi s t hi ng. E n d of i n t e r v i e w


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APA

Cras ut cursus ante, a fringilla nunc. Mauris lorem nunc, cursus sit amet enim ac, vehicula vestibulum mi. Mauris viverra nisl vel enim faucibus porta. Praesent sit amet ornare diam, non finibus nulla.

MLA

Cras efficitur magna et sapien varius, luctus ullamcorper dolor convallis. Orci varius natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Fusce sit amet justo ut erat laoreet congue sed a ante.

CHICAGO

Phasellus ornare in augue eu imperdiet. Donec malesuada sapien ante, at vehicula orci tempor molestie. Proin vitae urna elit. Pellentesque vitae nisi et diam euismod malesuada aliquet non erat.

WIKIPEDIA

Nunc fringilla dolor ut dictum placerat. Proin ac neque rutrum, consectetur ligula id, laoreet ligula. Nulla lorem massa, consectetur vitae consequat in, lobortis at dolor. Nunc sed leo odio.