Anthony Granell

Citation
Anthony Granell

Material Information

Title:
Anthony Granell
Series Title:
Spanish Civil War oral history project
Creator:
Granell, Anthony
Varela-Lago, Ana M
University of South Florida Libraries -- Florida Studies Center. -- Oral History Program
University of South Florida -- Tampa Library
Place of Publication:
Tampa, Fla
Publisher:
University of South Florida Tampa Library
Publication Date:
Language:
English
Physical Description:
1 sound file (84 min.) : digital, MPEG4 file + ;

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Ybor City (Tampa, Fla.) ( lcsh )
History -- Spain -- Civil War, 1936-1939 ( lcsh )
Genre:
Oral history. ( local )
Online audio. ( local )
Oral history ( local )
Online audio ( local )

Notes

Summary:
Anthony Granell describes how the Spanish Civil War affected his family with two uncles in Spain who fought for opposing sides.
Venue:
Interview conducted April 12, 1997.
System Details:
Mode of access: World Wide Web.
General Note:
Supplemental material available in the USF Tampa Library Special Collections area.
Statement of Responsibility:
interviewed by Ana Varela-Lago.

Record Information

Source Institution:
University of South Florida Library
Holding Location:
University of South Florida
Rights Management:
All applicable rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier:
029487133 ( ALEPH )
316065276 ( OCLC )
S64-00008 ( USFLDC DOI )
s64.8 ( USFLDC Handle )

Postcard Information

Format:
Audio

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This item has the following downloads:


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segment idx 0time text length 214 Ana M. Varela-Lago: This is an interview with Mr. Anthony Granell. Tony, I would like to start by talking a little bit about your family. Tell me, how did your family first come to Tampa, and what did they do here?
1170 Anthony Granell: The first three persons that left Spain to come to the United States was my oldest uncle, Vicente, Jose Garcia Granell, and their father, Antonio Garcia.
232 AV: So they left Spain together?
3341 AG: They left Spain together. They, at that time, everybody went to Cuba, Havana, Cuba. That's the way I understand it. Thinking that they had a relative in Cuba that they would be situated, and this and that. It did not work out. They were in Havana for a little while, and then they decided to come to Tampa, because of the cigar industry.
434 AV: Where were they from in Spain?
536 AG: They were from Pravia, Asturias.
680 AV: And how old were they when they left? I mean, how old was Vicente, and Jose-
7219 AG: Okay, my uncle Vicente is the oldest one. Vicente must have been-I want to say about 15, 16 at the oldest. And Pepe followed him, so it's a year and a half difference, maybe ten month difference, who knows what the-
824 AV: But they were young.
949 AG: They were, oh, yes, they were in their teens.
1053 AV: I see. And why did they leave Spain, do you know?
11285 AG: I'm glad you asked! The reason for leaving Spain. Fortunately, my grandfather could afford--he was in a condition that he was all right financially-he did not want his two oldest sons to serve the country; which at that time, for some reason, they were all sent to Africa. Morocco.
1212 AV: Morocco.
1391 AG: So he said, "No", he would like for them to go to America. That's the reason for that.
1410 AV: I see.
1552 AG: Now, you haven't asked anything about my father.
1663 AV: Yes. I'm interested in your father, yes. Tell me about him.
17AG: My father came later on. He was still in school.
1822 AV: What was his name?
19AG: Gonzalo.
2037 AV: Gonzalo. He was the youngest son?
217 AG: No.
2213 AV: Oh, okay.
2345 AG: No, there was still one younger than him.
249 AV: Okay.
2531 AG: The youngest boy was Oscar.
2673 AV: Oscar. Okay. So your father remained in Spain with your grandmother-?
27AG: Si.
2861 AV: -while your grandfather and your two uncles came to Cuba?
29435 AG: That's correct. Upon my father finishing his-whatever, high school, I don't know what it was then-but they were all, three of them, which get pretty high education. And upon my father, Gonzalo, getting to the age where, again, going to the service, he is sent to the United States in the same route: Cuba, and to the-and my grandfather, upon his third son coming out here and everything is fine, settled, he returned back to Spain.
3054 AV: To Spain. And settled there and he remained there-
3141 AG: And he remained there. He died there.
3214 AV: Oh, I see.
3350 AG: Now there was another son, continue with this?
34AG: Sure.
35171 AG: Now he, this last son was the youngest of them all. He didn't want to come to the United States. He said, no. So he went to Morocco, Spain, and he served under Franco.
36AV: I see. You mean, during the war? In the '30s?
37AG: Prior.
3825 AV: Oh, prior to the war.
3946 AG: Prior. He served his service under Franco-
4029 AV: I see. Like the military-
4147 AG: -the militia. Yes. Under Franco in Morocco.
42AV: In Morocco, I see.
43AG: Okay.
44AV: I see.
4562 AG: He was the only son that didn't come to the United States.
46111 AV: Okay. Now, what did your family do in Pravia? Were they farmers? I mean, did they work the land? Was that-?
4711 AG: No. No.
48AV: No?
49211 AG: No, what they had-my grandfather in Pravia had like a clothing store, or a general store. That's how they survived. I understand it was a fairly large store. And they were-the way I understand it, they were-
50AV: Well off?
5148 AG: They weren't farmers. They were in the city.
52AV: I see.
538 AG: Yes.
5487 AV: Now, going back to your father coming with your grandfather and your uncle to Cuba-
55AG: No.
5674 AV: No? Your uncle, I'm sorry. Right, your father remained there, Gonzalo.
57AG: Right. Gonzalo, yes.
5895 AV: Right, your two uncles and your grandfather came to Cuba and then decided to come to Tampa.
5919 AG: That's correct.
6060 AV: Okay. Where did they go in Tampa? Where did they settle?
6143 AG: Oh, in Ybor City. I'm sorry-West Tampa.
6215 AV: West Tampa?
63AG: West Tampa.
64AV: Okay. And what did they do?
65AG: Cigar.
6639 AV: They worked in the cigar factories?
67AG: In the cigar industry. Yes, yes.
68109 AV: What year was that? What, you know, period, you think? The beginning of the century, or later than that-?
69137 AG: No, it was very early. Vicente was born in 1890. So, let's say he came down here when he was 16 years old, so that, what, 1901? 1902?
70AV: I see. Okay. So the three of them worked as cigar workers?
71AG: They started into the cigar-they learned the trade. Pepe-
72AV: Pepe is your uncle Jose? We'll call him Pepe from now on.
73568 AG: Jose. Pepe. Jose. His interest wasn't in the cigar industry, his interest was-now that I see what he did, write, in writing. For some reason, he loved to write. So. At a early age-I never, can't tell you what year-he moved to Chicago. Now, what he did in Chicago, Ana, I have no idea. He was there a few years, and then he returned to Tampa. He wasn't in Tampa very long-maybe four or five years-into the cigar industry, and then when the [Spanish] Civil War broke out, he left, went to New York. Got on the Lincoln Brigade there and went back to his home country.
74AV: Okay. Yes. We'll talk about that in more detail.
75AG: Okay.
7656 AV: I'm going to keep asking you about the whole family.
7730 AG: Stop me, stop me whenever-
7820 AV: No, that's okay.
79AG: -I'll try to remember everything I can.
8042 AV: That's good, I'll make a note of that.
81AG: Okay.
8297 AV: So, the three of them come to Tampa-West Tampa-and they start working in the cigar factories.
83AG: Yes.
84AV: Now, when does your father come to Tampa? Gonzalo.
85AG: Okay.
86AV: More or less.
87AG: More or less.
8838 AV: Before World War I, for instance-?
89AG: I have to use some dates. He was born in 1895. So if he was 16, 17 years, what is that, 1904?-more or less.
90AV: 1912?
9126 AG: Okay, 1912. All right.
92AV: So, he came alone?
9318 AG: He came alone.
9492 AV: And came directly to Tampa? I mean, stopped in Cuba, but he knew he was coming to Tampa.
95AG: That is correct. Destination was Tampa-
9616 AV: Right. Okay.
9755 AG: -because his two brothers and his father were here.
98AV: So he didn't really spend time in Cuba, or anything.
99AG: No, not like the other. Not like my two uncles and my grandfather. No.
100AV: And he also went to West Tampa and the cigar factories? All of them were working there?
101AG: That's true.
10272 AV: Good. So, let's stop here for a minute and go to your mother's side.
103AG: Okay.
104AV: Tell me about that too. Where in Spain were they-?
10521 AG: My mother was-no.
106AV: She wasn't from Spain?
107AG: No.
108AV: Oh, okay.
109AG: May I continue?
110AV: Sure, yes. Tell me everything.
11140 AG: My mother's parents are from Sicily.
112AV: Oh, I see.
113299 AG: I'm ashamed, but I can't remember exactly where in Sicily-I think it's Alessandria della Rocca. I'm pretty sure, because a lot of them came from there. Now, they met here in the United States. They got married. And all their children were born here. Which means that my mother was born in Tampa.
114AV: I see. What is her name? Or what was her name?
115AG: Maria.
116AV: Maria. And the last name? The maiden name?
117AG: Rotolo.
118AV: Rotolo.
119AG: R-o-t-o-l-o. Rotolo.
120AV: Rotolo. Okay. What did she do? Did she work in a cigar factory, or they had other business?
121369 AG: Yes. Well. Now, on my grandfather-my maternal grandfather-education wasn't the prime up there. At a very young age, she went into the cigar industry. She was in cigar. Married very young. She was, let me see, what is my mother saying. She married at 19, and I was born before she was 21. Very young. They got married, they married very young. And I came very early.
12227 AV: You are the oldest son?
12344 AG: I am the oldest. There's only two of us.
12477 AV: How did your parents meet? Do you know? Do you know how your parents met?
125200 AG: That's a good question, because I was talking to my cousin about that. How did my parents meet, and how did his parents meet. There's only one answer to that: in the cigar, in the cigar factories.
126AV: They worked in the same factory?
127AG: They probably did in the same cigar factory, they met. And stuff like that. So, that's the only way. There was no other way then. They were, you know. Activity was very limited and, so it had to be that way.
12870 AV: Was it common for Spaniards to marry out of the Spanish community?
129AG: Ah!
130AV: How easy was that?
13194 AG: I recall that it wasn't very easy. They made it very hard for my mother. But, anyway they-
132AV: Your mother's family-?
133AG: Yes.
134AV: -didn't approve of her marrying a Spaniard?
135279 AG: No, they. At first. Yes. Marry a Spaniard. Why marry a Spaniard when they have all the Italians over here? But love must have been blind. But they got married. And I remember hearing many times what a blessing that was, that she married my father. May I brag about my father?
13623 AV: Sure, feel free to.
137710 AG: Because, like I previously said, education-now, they came from a poor country, and farmers and stuff-so education was out. Being that my daddy could get a letter and translate it into English, Spanish, or Italian, they said, My God, what is this? What is this man? So that's where he, and my grandparents were in the grocery business. They didn't make a good success of it, but that's what they would-my grandparents didn't go into the cigar industry. Both kids-their children did, but they didn't. So, because of my father's ability to communicate-he could read English but he could not communicate. Could not speak the English-don't know why. But he could read and write Italian, and all three languages.
138AV: I see. So they liked him.
139AG: Yes, oh, yes. He was a big asset to them later on in life.
140163 AV: I see. Okay, so now the grandfather and the three sons are here. And then eventually your grandfather decided to go back to Spain, and the three sons remained?
141153 AG: Very, very short time upon my father coming down here, very short time, he returned back to Spain, to be with his wife and his daughter, and one son.
142121 AV: I see. So the three brothers stayed here in Tampa. Did they live together, or did, they got married, and-do you know?
143283 AG: I guess. In West Tampa there was a boarding house, or a house, where you worked in the factory and you lived there. The three lived together for a while, yes. The oldest one got married. Vicente, and the other two brothers remained living in this boarding house, whatever it was.
144AV: What was the factory they worked at?
145AG: I've no idea.
146AV: You don't know? Okay. I thought, maybe it was-
147115 AG: I wish I could, at that time, but I can't remember. I don't know. But, it definitely was in the cigar industry.
148157 AV: Okay, tell me your memories-some of your memories about your childhood? Growing up here in Tampa, what do you remember most? Good memories, bad memories?
149AG: Well, you want me to start the day I was born?
15088 AV: Yes, what comes to mind when you think of your childhood? What are the things that-?
151167 AG: My childhood was a very, very good childhood. My mother and my father-and there's only two of us-I'm the oldest one and my sister, Jenny. Her real name is Juanita.
152AV: Juanita.
153AG: But Jenny; she goes under Jenny. It was a very, very happy childhood-
154AV: Where were you born?
155AG: Tampa.
156AV: What year?
157AG: Oh. 1922.
158AV: Nineteen twenty-two [1922].
159AG: March the 22nd.
160AV: Okay. Where did you go to school?
161AG: To school? I went to-you mean, from day one all the way to-
162AV: Yes, when you were a kid. The first school.
163252 AG: Okay. I started, the elementary school was Orange Grove. Then I went to George Washington Junior High. Then I went to Hillsborough High School. Then, much later in life, I graduated from the University of Tampa. Much later. Do you want to know why?
164AV: Yes, if you want to tell me, sure.
165465 AG: Okay. Later, because in '42 I volunteered in the Navy. I served almost four years. Then when I came out we had-I was still single-we had the G.I. Bill of Right. And I took advantage of it because my father, my father always taught me that education was prime. So I took advantage and with the G.I. Bill, I went to Tampa U. And my first year in Tampa U. I got married. And my second year at Tampa U. my first child was born. And I graduated from Tampa U. in '49.
166AV: What degree did you get? What did you study?
167AG: Business administration, minor in accounting.
168142 AV: I see. Okay. Going back to your childhood, what do you remember of the Depression? Because you grew up in the '30s. What are the memories?
169499 AG: I remember-I guess I was fortunate, because of my father and my grandfather on my mother's side, gardens in the back, vegetables and stuff like that. And my father's brother having a cow. I can never-I've heard a lot of people say that they went to bed hungry. I can't say that. I, really and truly, again that's why I say I was very fortunate. Somehow, my parents and my grandparents managed for us to- I mean, it wasn't no steaks or nothing like that, but we didn't go hungry. I remember that.
170552 I remember-watching our pennies. Being very careful. Wherever we can make a dime, we used to shine shoes, whatever it is, sell magazines or paper like that. I remember that. I remember both of my parents struggled very hard in the cigar industry. Things weren't going very good. Maybe both of them if they had a good week, they would probably bring in-both of them-twelve dollars. Maybe. But my childhood, again, I will stress it, it was a very happy one. Fortunately I didn't go hungry. I know a lot of them did, but fortunately we didn't go that way.
17169 AV: I see. How about the clubs? Did your parents belong to the clubs?
172AG: Which clubs?
173AV: The social clubs here. The Latin clubs?
174AG: Did I go-?
17568 AV: Were they involved in the clubs? Were they members of the clubs?
176351 AG: My father was a very old member of el Centro Asturiano. Yes. And naturally where my father went, my mother went. But then my father - they started a new health-like in, today they call it HMOs, La Fraternidad. And my father was very active in La Fraternidad. So was my uncle Vicente. My father never did enjoy having to work in the cigar industry.
177AV: Why not?
178230 AG: He just didn't like it. My uncle liked it because he was at an entirely different thing in there. I have a feeling-my father never told me-it was a little bit degrading to work in the cigar factory when he was an educated man.
179AV: I see.
180445 AG: A young man at the time. I'm bragging? yes, yes, okay. Fine. I'm proud, I'm proud of my family. So, something came up at La Fraternidad that they needed somebody to run the thing. Mi padre dice, "I can do it." "You don't know this, you don't know." He said, "How do you know? How do you know that I don't know?" So they tried him out, and lo and behold he became the secretary and treasurer of La Fraternidad. And he was there until he died.
18178 AV: Now, this health, was this like a health plan and insurance kind of thing?
182AG: Yes.
183126 AV: What was the difference between belonging to La Fraternidad and belonging to any of the clubs-in terms of health services?
184615 AG: There was no difference. No difference because, I tell you what, there was the different. El Centro Asturiano and Centro Español were the only clubs that had a hospital. Now La Fraternidad and the Cuban Club and La Unión Italiana, they didn't have that. But they worked close with the existing hospital. La Fraternidad was very close to Centro Asturiano. So the patients, the hospital was Centro Asturiano. Doctors were probably Centro Asturiano or they had the same doctors. That was the only difference. It's just-the manner of running the business, where you worked, who you had to see, was the same thing.
185AV: Was the same thing.
186AG: Tenían la misma-we call it dietas, have you heard that?
187AV: Yes.
188130 AG: If you weren't able to work, you got so much per day. You were policed. If you were home sick, somebody would check up on you-
18933 AV: Yes, make sure that you were-
190253 AG: That's correct. So, that's the only difference. La Fraternidad wasn't as big as Centro Asturiano, no. But the benefits and everything was the same. I don't know what the cost was, what the different-why La Fraternidad was brought up, I have no idea.
19128 AV: Yes. That's interesting.
192AG: Just somebody changed everything in there.
193104 AV: Now, your mother, was she a member of the Italian Club? Was she involved with the Italian Club, or-?
194AG: No, no, no, no.
195AV: -she joined the Centro Asturiano also?
196352 AG: She was more involved in the Centro Asturiano, and more, La Fraternidad. Wherever my father went, my mother-So, yes. I was more; I have a lot of Italian friends and stuff like that. But again, in the young thing, I had more friends, Spaniards, than anything else. Culture-wise and stuff like that, I had both of them. Italian and-but more Spaniard.
197AV: Did you speak Italian at home?
198AG: Oh, yes.
19984 AV: Did your mother speak Spanish? Did they use English? I mean, how did you manage?
200469 AG: Yes, yes. Yes, yes. My mother spoke English: My mother was not an educated woman-beautiful person, but she couldn't read or write. My father had to do all of that for her. Now. Let me say this, Ana. I would be talking to my mother in Italian, carrying on the same conversation-I didn't realize it until late-I turn around to my father, I mean, I start talking to him in Spanish. I don't know why. But that's the way it was. So, was both language spoke at home? Yes.
201AV: So you grew up really learning both of them?
202289 AG: Yes, yes. Because my grandparents on my mother's side lived next door to us. When my mother and my father were working in the cigar industry, my grandmother used to take care--all the whole flock. I mean, there were a lot. Cousins and stuff like that. So yes, I learned both languages.
203113 AV: And when did you learn English, then, when you went to school, or you had picked up some in the neighborhood?
204199 AG: No, no. I started school with not a word of English, and come crying home every day, I didn't want to go back to school. My father says, "You will go back to school." I learned English at school.
205AV: I see.
206181 AG: Yes. There was no English spoken in the neighborhood or nothing like that. No. It was hard for us. But we bit the bullet and I comment [comic?], that came, the other thing, yes.
207150 AV: Okay. What do you remember happening in Tampa in the 1930s? What are some of the things in terms of events, social events, political events, what-
208AG: Social?
209119 AV: -sticks in your mind? Just pick one or two, like, big events that you think that kind of made an impression an you.
210826 AG: The thing, a while ago when you said the '30s, was the way that, we had a lot of crime. We had some, and you can't- what they would call the Mafia. My family, I'm proud to say, was not involved in the Mafia. But I remember that, I remember a few killings, and that. And I remember, they used to have these picnics. And I remember that people used to go there, they didn't have nothing but there was a lot of fun. A lot of music, Spanish music, Italian music-whatever else, but it was a lot of fun. They had no radios-they had radios, but who had, who could afford a radio? Who could afford a telephone? And I remember, out of nothing, a lot of fun. And I do remember there was a lot of visiting done. From my house to your house, friends. A lot of that going there. And I can remember going down the street with my father.
211842 My father before he became secretario of La Fraternidad, he was the collector. Well, the weekly, and I remember walking down the sidewalks with him and there was a particular family-please don't ask me the family name, because I can't remember-but you don't know what I looked forward to. It was the summer, to go to this house, in the porch. Entren! And get a lemonade drink. Oh, that was the thing! I remember that very distinctly. I also remember going down the sidewalk; if I wasn't paying attention, people were always sitting in the porch. And if I, "Buenas, ¿que tal"? or something like that. One time I overlooked that; we kept on going. Say, "Se llega el Asturiano y me dice." "¿Dónde aprendiste eso?" I said "¿Qué, qué Papa?" "No saludaste a la gente." "Bueno, se me olvidó." "Go back and apologize." "Papa," I remember that.
212213 What I'm trying to say is, discipline was there. There was a lot of crime, a lot of different things going on. But, as a rule, we obeyed the father and the mother. Discipline was there. I remember that. What else?
213147 AV: Yes, other big events for the community, or, you know, in the cigar industry? Anything at all? Some political events, some elections, or some-?
214AG: Some elections?
215AV: Yes.
216745 AG: Well, for some reason we weren't too involved. Why? I don't know now, Ana. But my family wasn't too involved in politics or anything like that. Let me say this. I will say this because it is so. My father might not have been involved in too many things, but he was aware of a lot of things. So-we didn't have-we had the time, but we didn't have the money to get in too many things. No, my family was never involved in politics. I can't recall there, nothing like that. But I'm sure that my family, I have to say when my father-he was very aware. And so was Vicente, the oldest one. They were very aware of what was going on. But involvement? No. Now, later on in '36, now we are talking about a different-they did, they were involved in the-
217AV: With the war.
218AG: -conflict of Spain, yes.
219AV: Okay. Yes, let's talk about that. How did your family become involved in this conflict, I mean what do you remember of their involvement there?
22079 AG: What I can remember is, my family was involved; they were in the Loyalists.
221AV: The Loyalists; supporters?
222AG: They weren't with Franco.
223AV: The Loyalists were the Republican supporters.
224AG: The Republican. They were very for that. That I remember.
225112 AV: How did you first learn about the war in Spain? If you remember. Do you remember how you first became aware?
226AG: I became aware of the Civil War in Spain-I have to be very frank with you-when I heard that Pepe was leaving.
227AV: Pepe, your uncle Jose?
228AG: Jose.
229AV: Your father told you, "Pepe is leaving"?
230AG: Pepe. Yes. Jose is Pepe.
231AV: Right, right.
232522 AG: So I said, "Papa, ¿qué, se va pa Chicago?" "No, se va pa España." "What's he gonna do in Spain?" "There's a conflict in Spain. Civil War in Spain." That's when I learned about that. Then later on, they learned that the youngest brother was also involved, but with Franco. Why with Franco? Because he served under Franco. So naturally he went with his commander. Pepe got my eyes opened when I heard that he left the United States to go to Spain and fight in the Civil War. Were we active? Yes. My parents were, yes.
233AV: Okay. Let's talk about Pepe now.
234AG: Okay.
23581 AV: Where was he when-he was in Tampa at the time that he decided to go to Spain?
236AG: Yes.
237AV: Were you close to him? I mean, what can you tell me about Pepe, his personality, his life?
238443 AG: I'll tell you one thing about Pepe. I was a kid, okay? I remember Pepe working in a cigar factory-he was a bachelor. Never married. He lived, at that time he lived with his oldest brother, Vicente, and he was working in the cigar factory. This I remember. Fridays, when he got paid, I made sure that I was at my uncle's-Vicente's-house, because Pepe would come around and give all the Granells' nephews a quarter. So that, I remember Pepe.
239AV: Very generous.
240183 AG: Very generous, very generous. I remember Pepe then. And I also remember Pepe sitting down, at a table, he had a table of his own. Piles and piles of paper; escribiendo una novela.
241AV: Oh, he was writing a novel?
242201 AG: He never finished it, I remember that. And I remember all three brothers sitting down, discussing different things, and Pepe would say, "I'm gonna use my fifth intelligence with this conversation!"
243AV: That's funny.
244332 AG: And they would get, oh, they would get mad. I remember Pepe that way. Being generous. Being a bachelor. Writing a lot of stuff-I never knew what the subject was or what it was-I was too young for that. He never did finish the novel. And I remember, all of a sudden, I don't know how he got it, but he wanted to go back to Spain.
245144 AV: To Spain. Now, was he involved in politics here in any way? I mean, with the unions, maybe? Was he active in any way that you can remember?
246282 AG: No. No, no, no. Pepe was a very-to me he was a very centered man. I never remember him going out with a woman. He wasn't gay, don't get me wrong, he wasn't gay. I know that. But he was a, un español. No, he was never involved in anything like that-now, in Chicago I don't know.
247AV: Because he lived in Chicago for a few years?
248AG: Oh, he lived in Chicago for a long time.
249AV: I see.
250AG: What he did in Chicago, I'm sorry, Ana, I cannot answer you. He did something, but I really don't know. He wasn't in the cigar industry, I know that. But what he did I don't know.
251AV: Okay.
252AG: So, I have no other than that.
253152 AV: So, your father tells you that Pepe is leaving, and he leaves right away? I mean, when was that, in '37 he was leaving. I think we have the article.
254AG: Well-
255AV: He left with, '37, with a whole bunch of people from Tampa?
256AG: He left. Yes, they-
25766 AV: Do you remember him actually leaving? I mean, the day he left?
258799 AG: No, no, no, no. And, Ana, I wanna say this. For some reason, I'm trying to figure this out or something like that, we didn't hear of the Lincoln Brigade until after they got there. For some reason, I think it was held pretty secretive, for some reason or other. And then I learned, when he was in Spain, that-the first time I remember the Lincoln Brigade-of hearing that word, that my uncle was in the Lincoln Brigade. He had gone to New York. Joined whatever was there, and went overseas. Now what I understand-that I thought that they had gone into the Mediterranean and then to Barcelona. But they said No, no, no, no, no. This is a hearsay, okay? They went into France, in the Northern part of France, into Spain. Little bit, trickle, little bit at a time. Do you have any documents on that?
259AV: Yes.
260AG: Have you heard that that's the way it was?
261AV: Yes.
262160 AG: Okay. So, I'm pretty straight on the tracking there. I think what you were trying to ask me, was he involved in any communist party, or something like that-
263AV: Yes, well, yes.
264AG: No. Not that I know.
26589 AV: Anything that would give a hint that well, now that this thing is happening in Spain-
266863 AG: No, no. Not to that, communist or anarchist. I never heard that being said in my family. Now, I remember being said a lot of the high elite, the manufacturers, the cigar, abusive and stuff like that, which I'm gonna tell you something in a little while. But other than, being in the communist or any party like that, no, no, no, no. They were very proud to be from Spain, but they were very proud to be from the Republic. So, nothing like that, nothing like that. Now, going back to the abuse of manufacturers. Out at a certain cigar factory-I'll name it-Arango y Arango, somewhere down the line, very far down the line, they were related to my father. So they were working-my uncle Vicente, my father, my mother, and Vicente had a daughter, Maria. She was, I think she was an apprentice then. Those four people, those four persons, all of a sudden got fired.
267AV: Oh, really?
268AG: And they found out it was because they were-
269AV: Related-?
270AG: -from a different party.
271AV: Oh, I see. Had they done anything? I mean-
272AG: What they've done is because they had a brother that left here and went to Spain to fight.
273AV: So that was right after your uncle decided to-
274AG: My uncle was already in Spain.
275AV: Right, so that was the cause? That your uncle had-
276212 AG: Well, you put two and two together, and they came to that conclusion. And again, my uncle and my father would not make any declaration or anything like that, but I'm pretty, pretty sure, that's what happened.
277AV: I see. Was that common, do you think? A lot of people got fired when they-?
278217 AG: I think so. I don't recall any other cases, but I've heard a lot of that going on, yes. And if it was that, they would make it very miserable. But they didn't make it miserable for my family. They just fired them!
279AV: Yes.
280AG: They just-
281128 AV: So what did they do? They just tried to find a job in other, or, did they protest in any way, I mean, was there any way of-?
28257 AG: Oh, no, no, no, no. They wouldn't know. You couldn't-
283AV: Tell me, yes.
284110 AG: -No, you couldn't. There was no such thing as going to get your lawyer and your, or discriminating at all.
285102 AV: But how about other people within the cigar factory, would they, they could kind of organize, or-?
286687 AG: They couldn't do anything. They couldn't do anything, because the union was there-the cigar industry was there, the union was there. It did a lot of good, but unfortunately, they weren't very strong. They weren't very strong. And, if I recall, the union at one time was very strong, but too many strikes, this and that, and a couple of big factories just pulled out. They left Tampa. So, when that happens Ana, you're intimidated. You're, "Hey, wait a minute, let's be very careful; it's only four people involved, it's only six people involved over there." So, no, nothing could be done. Nothing was done. So, what happened, they went somewhere else to work. How long? I don't know.
287131 AV: Yes. So, tell me a little bit more about this conflict between the people who supported the Republic and the people who didn't?
288536 AG: You know, Ana. There was a lot of, I want to use this word, animosity. But I cannot recall, one case, only one case I can recall, and you have it documented. But other than that, I don't remember people fighting or using abusive languages or something like that. I'm sure there was, but I was not exposed to them. Okay? Now, there was another conflict, with two men, two neighbors got in a real hot argument and they both-well, one killed another, and then committed suicide. You have that documented. But that's all I can remember.
289AV: Do you remember when that actually happened?
290AG: Oh, yes.
291AV: Yes?
292AG: This killing and suicide?
293AV: Yes.
294AG: Oh, yes.
295AV: And what do you remember of that-?
296308 AG: I remember that they were neighbors. They were always in conflict, always finding some difference, always butting heads together. And, all of a sudden, I say, one of them must have just flipped. And he's the one that killed. And he turned around and committed suicide. That's for a fact. I remember that.
297AV: Yes. Do you remember how people here reacted to that, to the news of that happening?
298317 AG: People, if I recall, people were saddened. Because, not only did this man did this, but then he realized what he did and he did his own self. But he left, two families were left without a father or a husband. And, there was no overjoy of, "Eh, mató a éste." No. If anything, I recall, there was a lot of sorrow.
299247 Now, family-wise, were they bitter against each other? I would have to say yes. But it wasn't, the general public, if I recall, I may be wrong, but there was no animosity that they were glad this happened, and this. No, I don't recall that at all.
300133 AV: Okay. So were you getting any news from your uncle while he was there fighting in Spain? Letters, or-? How did you keep informed?
301AG: Did my uncle and my father receive-?
302AV: Yes.
303450 AG: Ana, I would say yes. I am pretty sure that there was some, very little correspondence. But there must have been some correspondence. Where is it at? I don't know. There was correspondence-you brought it up to me. Like I told you, I said, it opened up a big avenue for our family over here, and we greatly appreciate it. But, I am pretty sure that there was some communication between the brothers. Spain and-how, how did he manage? I don't know.
304207 AV: I mean, you don't remember, growing up during the war, and maybe your parents talking about what Pepe's doing or, "I got a letter from Pepe," or, "Pepe was in that battle; I wonder how he did." Is that-?
305195 AG: No. No, that I. No, and that's a shame, because I'm pretty sure, Ana, that there was something said. And again. Tell me how my father brought me up. Because my father was always saying to me-
306Side A ends; side B begins
30776 AV: Okay, so, your father always told you that he was also your best friend?
308527 AG: Not only was he my father, but he was always my friend. What he meant by that, he made it very clear: any problem-I mean, whatever problem-you come to me first. Because I am your best friend, and we will solve it. I remember that. And I passed that on to my kids, my three sons. That I remember. So, with that, if there was any communication, I'm sure that it was said while I was there, but I didn't retain it. Was anything hidden from us about Pepe? No. Can I prove what they said, what was involved? I'm sorry. I forgot.
309191 AV: But, for instance, do you remember reading in La Gaceta, like sometimes they would have these articles about him. Was that something that you kind of knew that your uncle was there, and-?
310AG: No. I knew he was there, I knew he was fighting.
311AV: Did that affect you in any way, I mean, did people know that you were the nephew of this brigadista?
312AG: What about it?
313AV: Did that affect you, growing up, in any way? That people-
314432 AG: No, no, Ana, no. It didn't affect me because I had two uncles out there, fighting against each other. I only knew one. But I also knew that the other was the youngest brother of my father. And that was enough. That was enough to know; that I loved both of them. I respected both of them. So, no. I also knew that they, I had aunts. They were married. And their husbands were fighting against their brother-in-laws. No animosity.
315607 Did it affect me? Did any-? No. No. Because I didn't meet anybody that would come up to me or say anything. I don't know what, any bad thing, I wouldn't stand for it. But did I take advantage of it, or something? No. No, because it was, there were two brothers fighting against each other. Why would I be proud against Pepe when I knew that Oscar was out there, and I would have the same love for him. So it was a-now, talking to you, that is, I'm pretty sure, that's why my uncles were never too freely telling me. Because my brother's over here telling us this; I don't know what my other brother's doing.
316410 So that, they were in a big turmoil. A big conflict. Two brothers fighting against each other. I did not, having this conversation with you, probably that's why some of this didn't stay with me. And I think that's the whole thing. The whole thing. And I do remember that my two, my father and my uncle, they had it bad. Knowing that two brothers were against each other. And brother-in-laws against each other.
317AV: Now, when you, you were fourteen at that time?
31835 AG: Fourteen, fifteen, at the most.
319AV: You were already aware that your uncles are fighting.
320AG: Well, I-
321AV: How did you understand the war? What was this war about for you?
32258 AG: You want me to tell you what I understood about that-?
323114 AV: Yes. As far as you can remember when you were fourteen years old? Now, you probably see it in a different way.
324647 AG: Yes, well, I can remember this. That the king was out. The Republic came in. There was a conflict. They wanted their king back. They went to Franco, because he was the-probably the largest, the biggest general then, in experience in Morocco and stuff like that, hoping that they would bring the monarchy back, or the royalty back. And, which didn't happen. Franco stayed there. And I also remember this about the Civil War. That, okay? That I remember--nothing to do with my family-but the war. My uncle and my father. That Spain was used as a proving ground for Germany and Italy. Their air force, their tanks, their tactics. That I remember.
325AV: You remember that.
326AG: And I remember the atrocity of the German bombing. Madrid and stuff like that. That I recall time and time again. That that was used, Spain was used as a proving ground for Germany and Italy.
327AV: Was that something that was in the news here in Tampa?
328293 AG: Oh yes. I'm pretty sure it was. If I was fourteen, fifteen, and I knew about it, I'm sure that everybody else knew about it. And I also heard-can't prove it-that this Madrid, this open city bombing, was mostly German. They were testing their stukas, dive bombers. That's what I understand.
329AV: Now, how about the reaction of the people here? Why do you think the people were so supportive here of the Spanish Republic?
3301032 AG: You know that's a good question. Which is true. Which is true. I would say because we had more poor people here in Tampa than, well-although I understand that there were some well-to-do people, but I think it was kept on the hush-hush that they were supportive of the Loyalists. My thought, train of thought is: number one, is because they were very, they were poor. What was happening in Spain, it was about time to make a change. They made the change, and all of a sudden, said, No, we want the aristocrat back. So, being that here they were all workers and struggling, and that's why they were, the percentage was a heck of a lot. For the Loyalists. There were some Franco people here. But I never saw, Ana, I never saw a big demonstration, a big fight, or nothing like that. Two different groups there. I'm sure there were. But I don't remember, or hearing about it, or anything like that. So. My reason why, my thought, train of thought, why there were more Loyalists here, because they were tired of what went on in Spain.
331148 AV: I see. Now, how about this Popular Front? This organization that was organized here to support Spain? The Republic in Spain, the Frente Popular?
332AG: All those drives?
333AV: What do you remember of some of the events they organized?
334205 AG: Ana, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I will be very frank with you. I don't ever remember participating on anything. And then, then they turn around and these girls say, "Sure, you were there!" I don't remember.
335AV: Yes, Do you remember picnics, for instance, at La Columna?
336AG: Oh, yes!
337AV: Okay. What can you tell me about that?
338AG: Well, the, now, I remember-
339100 AV: The picnics, like this picnic we have here in this picture; do you remember something like that?
340AG: No, I don't remember anything like that. Was this at a picnic?
341165 AV: Yes. That was at a picnic in La Columna. And all these children are dressed up as milicianos and they used to sing the songs, and-you never participated in that?
342AG: No, Ana. No, no.
343AV: Okay.
344AG: I don't remember-
34599 AV: You remember the speakers? Anyone, all these speakers would come to Centro Asturiano, and talk?
346340 AG: No. No, no. I don't remember that, Ana. Again, I don't remember, I probably didn't participate in it. But I guarantee you that my parents, my two uncles-my father and my uncle did. But I can't give you no material on that. But picnics? Picnics I do remember. Oh, yes, I remember the picnics. I remember, but I can't recall none of this.
347AV: What do you recall of the picnics?
348AG: Remember what you said about social life?
349AV: Uh-huh?
350565 AG: I remember where, a lot of, we used to have a lot of fun. Parents. It was a picnic. The food was either cooked there or was catered in, and something like that. The older people would love to dance, and us kids would just be running in the country, wild. I remember that. And I also remember this-now you're bringing something up-I remember one time, I can't even remember the club. You had, your parents had to be from, Españoles, and we put on a dance at one of the picnics. Now you see, now you're bringing up an avenue there. But it was a folk dance. Okay?
351AV: La danza montañesa? Somebody else mentioned that to me. It was a picnic of the Loyal Knights of America?
352AG: Loyal Knights of America!
35390 AV: And there was this danza montañesa, with sticks or something, with your arms raised-?
354AG: Okay, and we used to-okay, all right. We, if you want to call it that, you call it that.
355AV: Yes, I don't know, I'm just saying-
356185 AG: I remember that. I remember that, and I remember having a crush on one of the girls that I met there. But that fell right away. Okay, La Montañesa is some-maybe that's what it was.
357AV: I don't know.
358AG: And we used to participate, something like that. But other than that, we didn't have no uniforms. We had some kind of a costume, but it wasn't-
359AV: Do you remember singing any of the songs? This ¡No Pasarán! or anything like that?
36082 AG: Bueno, yo me acuerdo de eso: "Y a Madrid ¡No Pasarán!" Yo me acuerdo de eso.
361AV: That was one of their-
362158 AG: But I don't remember, don't you dare ask me to sing it, because - Si, yo me acuerdo de eso "Y a Madrid ¡No Pasarán!" Did we sing that? I don't remember.
363AV: How about demonstrations. Do you remember the demonstrations? There were some demonstrations.
364AG: No. There were some, I'm sure, but I don't remember. Ana, I'm sorry, did I participate? I don't remember.
365174 AV: Okay. How about your parents' participation, I mean, what do you remember of them, what did they do in terms of helping the Republic? Do you remember them doing anything?
366AG: My parents-
367AV: In what ways did they help that you remember?
368318 AG: -my parents, when it came to demonstrations, or something like that, I don't remember them participating. But I cannot believe that they did not. They had to. But I can't remember. I remember them struggling to save a quarter or a dime or something like that, to the donation of whatever. Especially the ambulance.
369AV: You remember the ambulances?
370AG: Yes. Oh, yes.
371AV: What do you remember of that?
372362 AG: Like. I was never, participated, but I remember the, there was a girl, several girls there, but one of them was Aida del Valle. I remember she coming by the house to collect, going to different places to collect. Some weeks we could give her a dime or a quarter, some weeks we couldn't. I remember that. I don't remember me doing it; I'm sure I didn't do it.
373Aida Azpeitia, née del Valle, was also interviewed for this project.
374234 AV: Right. Now, let me ask you something. Growing up in a marriage between Italian and Spaniard, was there any conflict between Italians and Spaniards? Because Mussolini was supporting Franco in Spain. Was there any debate about that?
375732 AG: Oh, I'm sure there was. I'm sure there was. But demonstrations? I don't recall anything like that. A lot of my friends knew that I was part Italian. Nothing was said against me about that. Why? Because maybe my uncle was there, I don't know. I don't know. But there was, no. I don't recall anything like that. Sure that there was. I'm sure that there was. But again now, people here in Tampa were a bigger percentage Sicilian. From the island of Sicily, not Italy. Maybe that has something to do with it. Sicily was looked down. The Italians all looked down on Sicily. So, maybe that's why we didn't see any big demonstration against the Italian. Maybe up north, New York, something like that. But here in Tampa, I don't recall.
376254 AV: So, there weren't, I mean, do you remember the reaction of the other communities? Like the Italians or the Cubans towards this situation in Spain? Was the response of the community homogeneous, would you say? In terms of support to the Republic, or-?
377AG: I can tell you this. At that time, about '36 or '37, like my mother and father-they allowed our intermarriages already. So, there were a lot of Italians that were supportive of the Loyalists.
378AV: The Loyalists?
379AG: Yes. And Cubans, much to my surprise, they were not with Franco. Maybe some were, but mostly were Loyalists.
380AV: Why did that surprise you?
381AG: Why? No, it did not surprise me.
382AV: Oh, it didn't surprise you.
383AG: No, it didn't surprise me. No. Cuba, first chance that they had, they got out of Spain. And naturally that means that they had no love for the royalties out there. But they were very supportive of the-because also, the Spaniard people and the Italian people were very supportive of the Cuban, when Marti-
384AV: During the Cuban war for independence.
385349 AG: -was there, yes, went there, Now, and a lot of Spaniards, although the war was against Spain, they were supportive of them. I remember different things said about that-and there was no Spaniards and Cubans fighting, and street brawls and, no, I don't remember that. Now, animosity against Italians living here because Mussolini was involved? No.
386AV: I see.
387136 AG: No. I don't remember anything like that. And like I previously said, a lot of people knew that I was part Italian. Nothing was said.
388AV: Okay. How about the Americans, I mean the Anglo-Saxon; were they involved here in any way or, what is your feeling of, you know, what they thought about the war in Spain?
389520 AG: No. My thought, at that age, they cared less. This was a war that they had nothing to do-they were out there, this is immigrants that came down here, and it was rough for awhile, an immigrant down here. You know, we were looked down a little bit and stuff like that. But we out came them. So, the Anglo-Saxons here weren't, they were indifferent, okay? They cared less. Although I understand that we had, a lot of Anglo-Saxons volunteered and went with the Lincoln Brigade and fought in Spain. But here in Tampa, no.
390AV: No?
391506 AG: Nothing was, I don't really remember any broadcast, or any news. The only news was the atrocity of the bombing of Madrid, or something like that. But, to my knowledge, to start with, we couldn't afford a subscription to the Tribune or the Times, okay? But, that's irrelevant because los lectores en las fábricas, they would tell the whole public what was going on. Which they got rid of the lectores later on because the manufacturers didn't like the workers learning what's going on around the world.
392322 So, going back to the Anglo-Saxon, they were very indifferent. I do remember this, also-again, you're opening another avenue-United States let the Loyalists down on, some, they were expecting some kind of a deal, or ammunition, or something like that, and it didn't go through. That was the camel that broke, that was the-
393AV: Straw?
394AG: -that broke the camel's back. Without that, Loyalists, they had no chance after that. It was a useless battle after that. I remember that.
39596 AV: Yes. Do you remember how people here responded to that, the neutrality of the United States?
396471 AG: People here weren't too happy, were disappointed. But what could they do? What could they do? Nothing. You know here's something. A lot of Spaniard boys, a lot of Latin boys, got killed. My uncle was one of them, that's on my mother's side. But when World War II came out, I don't remember my father saying, "No, no, you can't fight for the United States, because this is what they did to me." No. No. They loved Spain. But, they knew that this was their country. So.
397AV: Your parents were citizens, or became citizens later-?
398AG: My father became citizen.
399AV: When? Do you remember? During the war, or-?
400AG: My father became a citizen-no, no, after the war.
401AV: After World War II?
402AG: Yes.
403108 AV: And your mother-well, your mother had been born already in Tampa? Your mother was already born in Tampa.
404AG: That's a good subject. My mother was an, she was born here. Upon marrying my father, she left her citizenship.
405AV: Oh, right.
406AG: People don't believe me.
407AV: Yes.
408AG: No-listen-she was born here. She married my father, she lost her citizenship.
409AV: Because she was married to a foreigner, right?
410343 AG: When World War II broke out, I said, "Papa, quiero ir para la Marina." He didn't say, "No, no puedes." He says, "Son, you gotta go; one way or the other you gotta go. You wanna go into the Navy? God bless you." My two cousins went, my uncle went. My uncle got killed in Germany. So there was no, what the United States did for some reason-
411AV: It didn't have any relevance to that. I see.
412529 AG: Strange, but, that's the way it was. And unfortunately, the guy, the person-that's my way of thinking-the person that stopped it, was a very prominent person and a very-he did a lot for the poor people-was Delano Roosevelt. And he's the one that I understand put a stop to this, to that ammunition-whatever it was. So to answer your question, how did my folks, and other folks feel towards the United States? Were they intimidated? I don't think so. It's just that it happened, it happened. Hey, let's keep an with our lives.
413AV: I see. So, when the war was over-
414AG: Civil War.
415AV: Yes, the civil war in Spain, when it ended, and Franco won-
416AG: Yes.
417AV: -did people here more or less stopped helping?
418AG: No. They weren't-
419AV: What happened? I mean-
420118 AG: Well, they were very, very sad. Very disappointed. They were very disappointed. But they didn't stop loving Spain.
421AV: Right.
422AG: No, they were still-
423AV: But did they stop the collections, and, you know, sending things to Spain? I mean, what happened to the Popular Front and to all these committees and all these things?
42493 AG: I don't know. That's a good question. What happened? And I would say they just disbanded.
425AV: You think so?
426AG: I-no. That's what I would think. That's a good question. I wonder. Do you have anything on that? Okay, all right. No, Ana, I don't remember.
427AV: You don't remember anything.
428AG: I don't remember. I don't remember. I do remember, much later after the Civil War, things in Spain being very, very bad. I do remember my father and my uncle getting some clothes, something like that, and sending them to their family in Spain.
429AV: I see.
430356 AG: Upon-after World War II, me coming back and my cousin coming back-he was in the Army, I was in the Navy. All my uniforms, all his uniforms, pea-coat, overcoat, all of that was sent to Spain. Because we didn't need it over here. I remember that. And I remember my, which a lot, a lot of my friends in the service, when they came they did the same thing.
431546 So, Ana. What guarantee did they have that they would go to where they-for some reason they did. Whatever my father and my uncle sent, it went to their family. And Franco was there. Now let me say this; I mean let's be very frank about this. They despised Franco for a long time. For a long time. But after a while-how long, I don't know-they discovered that, hey, this man, he's a dictator, yes. But he's done some good for Spain. And when he was able to keep Spain out of World War II-how he managed, I don't know-but he was able. After awhile-
432AV: They thought that was a good thing?
433123 AG: Well-they, good thing, or he's there. Okay, he's there. And the way I understand it, he did some damn-very good things.
434122 AV: Do you remember when he died in '75? I mean, were people here kind of-was there any reaction, or was-ready to move on?
435AG: There was-no, I don't think it was any bad reaction or anything like that. Just the news. The news that he died. The news that he was sick. And, this and that. Didn't he bring in the royals, one of the royals?
436AV: Yes.
437AG: He brought it in?
438273 AG: And, if I recall, that was kind of accepted? Because, it was a very limited, the way he came in, the way I understand. The news was here, but the reaction of, here wasn't, que se alegraran that he was dead, no, I don't recall that. The man died and he died; that's all.
439AV: I see. Now, what happened to Pepe, then?
440209 AG: Pepe, that's a good question, and a good, I have that, I learned that a little while back. Pepe was a POW for 18 months. In one of your articles there, I learned-we learned-that he was a POW for 18 months.
441AV: He was in Spain all those months?
442932 AG: In Spain. He was there, but my oldest-Vicente, his oldest brother, got news that he was missing in action, and they didn't know whether it was a German bomb or an Italian bomb that killed him. But in the, but it then turned out he was a prisoner of war. He served 18 months. Oscar managed to go to this, it must have been a disarrayed, disorganized camp or something, he managed to go there-it was after the war, now-get his brother, get him out of there, and hide him someplace in Pravia. Because if his brother would not have done that, they would have killed Pepe. Pepe was a loud-mouth, was a very outspoken, well, there it is, very outspoken-le dieron palo. But he wouldn't stop. He was a very, devoted for his cause. That's how he got out of prison. Oscar, until things were better in there. And I guess later on, con los golpes, he was injured. He died and he's buried in Spain. And I'm pretty sure he's buried in Pravia.
443AV: So when did he die? I mean-
444AG: What year?
445AV: How soon after the whole event took place? After the war.
446106 AG: Pepe didn't live, after the Civil War Pepe didn't live-I don't think he lived five, maybe seven years.
44767 AV: So in the '40s maybe. In the '40s he died, something like that?
448AG: In the '40s.
44975 AV: And he stayed then with your family there in Asturias with Oscar, and-?
450AG: Oh, yes. Yes.
451AV: So they stayed together?
452140 AG: They, yes. They stayed together. Because they had-in Asturias there was his brother Oscar, and two sisters, two sisters there in Pravia.
453AV: Right.
454280 AG: One in Gijón y una o dos en Madrid. It was a big family. He stayed, yes, but he stayed in Asturias. The way I understand it, he stayed in Asturias. And he died there. And they buried him someplace in Pravia. Which, they have a family plot, most likely was his, where he's at.
45598 AV: I see. Do you know anything about what he did for a living there in Spain in these last years?
456AG: No, what?
457AV: What did he do for a living? I wonder, maybe it was difficult for him to find employment-
458AG: It was very difficult, yes it was difficult. Pepe was not. Work wasn't for Pepe.
459AV: Did he write, maybe? That must have been difficult also to write for-
460193 AG: Well, he probably wrote, but did they do anything, or was he making any money? I cannot answer you that. I think mostly that Pepe, how he survived was because of his sister and his brother.
461190 AV: Yes. Okay. Since your uncle had been a volunteer, I mean was there any contact between your family and the families of other volunteers who left Tampa to fight in Spain, do you remember?
462AG: Was there any communication?
463AV: Yes. To see where, have you got a letter from your son? Or-because many people from Tampa fought in Spain-
464AG: There were quite a few. Quite a few.
465AV: I was just wondering whether you knew about them-
466AG: Yes. Again. Ana, again, I don't recall. My father, my uncle saying, "Fulano recibió noticias." I don't remember that. I just don't. I'm sure there was. And something was said, but I don't recall.
467AV: Okay. How about radio? Did you have a radio at home?
468AG: No. I didn't have a radio at home, but somebody in the family had a radio, and noticias.
469AV: Did you listen to the noticias?
470AG: No.
471AV: No?
472AG: No. I was more interested in going out to the park to play.
473AV: Okay.
474AG: That's, that's the way it is.
475AV: It makes sense.
476AG: That's the way it is. That's the way it is. My father, I'm coming to the conclusion now that my uncle and my father, it was bad enough for them, to get kids involved. La miseria and something like that. But how they managed-they also knew, "Look, this is what's going on." How deep, they didn't go very deep. Because, that's the way it is. But were we aware of what was going on in Spain? Yes. Now these little communication, stuff like that? No.
477AV: Yes. Okay. How about the Church. The Catholic Church and the Latin community here. What do you think about it?
478AG: Well. The Catholic Church here in Tampa was very, very, not liked. Not liked at all.
479AV: Why not?
480AG: Well, the involvement that they had in the Civil War. The Catholic Church. The involvement in Spain. We hear a lot of things, that churches were used for army, snipes, a lot of, just hearsay, that's all it was. To answer your question, no, the Catholics here, it was not liked at all.
481AV: Were there conflicts between the Catholic Church and the Latin community who supported-?
482602 AG: I don't recall no conflicts. I don't recall no stones, no nothing, tearing up the church-no, I don't recall any of that. I don't recall people being beat up or slained, or something like that, they would continue going to church. Now, I say this. My father was-his father was a devout Catholic. I was brought up as a Catholic. I don't-and I'm sure that there were some Catholic people who obviously, they would go to church. And I don't remember anyone saying no, no, that they were told not to go. I don't recall that. Were they bitter against the Catholic? Yes. Any demonstration? I don't recall.
483AV: I see.
484AG: I'm not saying that there wasn't any, but I don't recall.
485246 AV: Okay, before we conclude this interview, I would like to ask you a couple of questions. When you look back from today to these events about the Spanish Civil War, what would you say was the impact that the war had an your life? If any impact.
486491 AG: The impact that it had on me? Well, I learned. The impact. I learned that civil war is hell. I can, that's one word that, I can't describe it any better than that. I couldn't understand why two families, fighting against each other. And the impact was, how could a nation bomb an open city and get away with it? That's the impact I got; one of the impact I got. And also the impact was the proving ground of using Spain-Germany and Italy-especially Germany. That's the only impact I got.
48759 AV: Did it shape your life in any other way, would you say?
488AG: No.
489AV: Not really.
490422 AG: No. It didn't. I have no Germans in-but it didn't stop me from not being interested in what Italy was doing and what they're not doing. Because, whether you, it's still-some of those genes are from up there. When it came to me. It didn't stop me from, well, what are they doing, and why is he, Mussolini, invading Ethiopia. No, it didn't stop me from thinking that way. Germany, I never cared, for something like that.
491297 AV: Okay. Before we conclude the interview, I would like to ask you also, is there anything else you would like to add, or some aspect that you think we should have touched on that maybe we didn't, or some information you want to make sure that is included, that maybe I didn't ask you about, or-?
492397 AG: Well. This is. I've always been very, very interested in history. I guess I took after my father. These are things that, later on, I've made some notes here, you saw that. I would like to ask different people, and if I find more ammunition-I use that word ammunition a lot-yes, I'm pursuing it more and more. You have started something! I'm telling you, Ana. So does that answer your question?
493AV: Yes.
494395 AG: Am I gonna stop here tonight, today? No, I will continue what's going on. Like I previously said, we are gonna get in touch with the husband of a cousin-the only cousin I got to know because she came down here-in Pravia, and ask them more about what happened. Can you talk to us? Can you elaborate an something like that? Where is Pepe buried? Y Oscar? Oscar happens to be his father-in-law.
495AV: Right.
496704 AG: To the person we're gonna talk to. So, yes. Then, we didn't communicate with Madrid. Don't ask me why. I have three cousins in Madrid. But con Victor, that's the guy in Madrid, in Pravia, he's a well, he's in the banking business. He's a well, he's an intelligent man. We're gonna ask him, Victor, dime, por favor. Get this information for me. I'll call you back later. And maybe we don't want him- just because he was married to my cousin-my cousin is dead; I want him to be-he's still part of the family. I want to know more about my family. And I will get some, he loves the history also. Am I gonna continue pursuing this history of the Civil War? Yes. Is that an answer that you are looking for?
497AV: Yes. I was just-
498AG: Sometimes I get carried away. Okay.
499194 AV: No, is there anything else that you-maybe some information that you want to make sure, some comment or some last thought that you have that you would like to have included in this recording?
500AG: Included? No.
501AV: In this interview.
502AG: No, no. But after this interview, if I run across some information, I will tell you about it.
503AV: Sure.
50483 AG: You might have the information. But, I'm gonna tell you anyway. Yes. All right?
505AV: Okay. Anything else you want to add?
506AG: No, no.
507AV: Okay. This concludes the interview with Mr. Anthony Granell. And I want to thank you, Tony, very much, for participating in this project. And I hope that you get more information about your family.
508AG: By all means.
509AV: Information we can use also in this project. Thank you very much.
510End of interview
unicode usage 2-byte sequence starting at 27327 [195 177 (c3 b1 ) {"\u00f1"} ]. [ Asturiano and Centro Español were the only clubs that had a hos].2-byte sequence starting at 27421 [195 179 (c3 b3 ) {"\u00f3"} ]. [ and the Cuban Club and La Unión Italiana, they didn't have tha].2-byte sequence starting at 27977 [195 173 (c3 ad ) {"\u00ed"} ]. [ length="60">AG: Tenían la misma-we call it dietas, have you heard that?
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].2-byte sequence starting at 63522 [195 177 (c3 b1 ) {"\u00f1"} ]. [ right away. Okay, La Montañesa is some-maybe that's what it was.
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Aida Azpeitia, née del Valle, was also interviewed for this project.
AG: One in Gijón y una o dos en Madrid. It was a ].2-byte sequence starting at 84956 [195 179 (c3 b3 ) {"\u00f3"} ]. [ uncle saying, "Fulano recibió noticias." I don't remember ].



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COPYRIGHT NOTICE This Oral History is copyrighted by the University of South Florida Libraries Oral History Program on behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of South Florida. Copyright, 2009, University of South Florida. All rights, reserved This oral history may be used for research, instruction, and private study under the provisions of the Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of the United States Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section 107), which allows limited use of copyrig hted materials under certain conditions. Fair Use limits the amount of material that may be used. For all other permissions and requests, contact the UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA LIBRARIES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at the University of South Florida, 4202 E. Fo wler Avenue, LIB 122, Tampa, FL 33620.

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1 Spanish Civil War Oral History Project Oral History Program Florida Studies Center University of South Florida, Tampa Library Digital Object Identifier: S64 00008 Interviewee: Anthony Granell (AG) Interviewer: Ana M. Varela Lago (AV) Interview date: April 12, 1997 Interview location: Centro Asturiano de Tampa Transcribed by: Unknown Transcription date: Unknown Interview changes by: Mary Beth Isaacson Interview changes date: November 19, 2008 Additional changes: Arlen Bensen Additional changes date: December 15, 2008 Final Edit by: Maria Kreiser Final Edit date: January 20, 2009 A na M. V arela Lago : This is an interview with Mr. Anthony Granell Tony, I would like to start by talking a little bit about your family. Tell me, how did your family first come to Tampa and what did they do here? A nthony G ranell : The first three persons that left Spain to come to the United States was my oldest uncle Vicente, Jose Garcia Gra nell, and their father, Antonio Garcia. AV: So they left Spain together? AG: They left Spain together. They, at that time, everybody went to Cuba, Havana, Cuba. That's the way I understand it. Thinking that they had a relative in Cuba that they would be situated, and this and that. It did not work out. They were in Havana for a little while, and then they decided to come to Tampa, because of the cigar industry. AV: Where were they from in Spain? AG: They were from Pravia, Asturias. AV: And how old were they when they left? I mean how old was Vicente, and Jose AG: Okay, my uncle Vicente is the oldest one. Vicente must have been I want to say about 15, 16 at the oldest. And Pepe followed him, so it's a year and a half difference, maybe ten month difference, who knows what the AV: But they were young. AG: They were, oh yes, they were in their teens.

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2 AV: I see. And why did they leave Spain, do you know? AG: I'm glad you asked! The reason for leaving Spain. Fortunately, my grandfather could afford he was in a condition that he was al l right financially he did not want his two oldest s ons to serve the country; which at that time, for some reason, they were all sent to Africa. Morocco. AV: Morocco. AG: So he said "No", he would like for them to go to America. That's the reason for that. AV: I see. AG: Now, you haven't asked anything about my father. AV: Yes. I'm interested in your father, yes. Tell me about him. AG: My father came later on. He was still in school. AV: What was his name? AG: Gonzalo. AV: Gonzalo. He was the youngest son? AG: No. AV: Oh, o kay. AG: No, there was still one younger than him. AV: Okay. AG: The youngest boy was Oscar. AV: Oscar. Okay. So your father remained in Spain with your grandmother ? AG: Si AV: while your grandfather and your two uncles came to Cuba? AG: That's correct. Upon my father finishing his whatever high school, I don't know what it was then but they were all, three of them, which get pretty high education. And upon my father, Gonzalo, getting to the age where, again going to the service, he is sent

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3 to the United States in the s ame route: Cuba and to the and my grandfather, upon his third son coming out here and everything is fine, settled, he returned back to Spain. AV: To Spain. And settled there and he remained there AG: And he remained there. He died there. AV: Oh I see. AG: Now there was another son, continue with this? AG: Sure. AG: Now he, this last son was the youngest of them all. He didn't want to come to the United States. He said no. So he went to Moro cco, Spain, and he served under Franco. AV: I see. You mean during the war? In the '30s? AG: Prior. AV: Oh, prior to the war. AG: Prior. He served his service under Franco AV: I see. Like the military AG: the militia. Yes. Under Franco in Morocco. AV: In Morocco, I see. AG: Okay. AV: I see. AG: He was the only son that didn't come to the United States. AV: Okay. Now, what did your family do in Pravia? Were they farmers? I mean, did they work the land? Was that ? AG: No. No. AV: No? AG: No, what they had my grandfather in Pravia had like a clothing store, or a general store. That's how they survived. I understand it was a fairly large store. And they were the way I understand it, they were

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4 AV: Well off? AG: They weren't farmers. They were in the c ity. AV: I see. AG: Yes. AV: Now, going back to your father coming with your grandfather and your uncle to Cuba AG: No. AV: No? Your uncle, I'm sorry. Right, your father remained there, Gonzalo. AG: Right. Gonzalo, yes. AV: Right, your two uncles and your grandfather came to Cuba and then decided to come to Tampa. AG: That's correct. AV: Okay. Where did they go in Tampa? Where did they settle? AG: Oh, in Ybor City. I'm sorry West Tampa. AV: West Tampa? AG: West Tampa. AV: Okay. And what did they do? AG: Cigar. AV: They worked in the cigar factories? AG: In the cigar industry. Yes, yes. AV: What year was that? What, you know, period, you think? The beginning of the century, or later than that ? AG: No, it was very early. Vicente was born in 1890. So, let's say he came down here when he was 16 years old, so that, what 1901? 1902? AV: I see. Okay. So the three of them worked as cigar workers?

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5 AG: They started into the cigar they learned the trade. Pepe AV: Pep e is your uncle Jose? We' ll call him Pepe from now on. AG: Jose. Pepe. Jose. His interest wasn't in the c igar industry, his interest was now that I see what he did, write, in writing. For some reason, he loved to write. So A t a early age I never, can't t ell you what year he moved to Chicago. Now, what he did in Chicago, Ana, I have no idea. He was there a few years, and then he returned to Tampa. He wasn't in Tampa very long maybe four or five years into the cigar industry, and then when the [Spanish] Civ il War broke out, he left, went to New York. Got o n the Lincoln Brigade there and went back to his home country. AV: Okay. Yes. We' ll talk about that in more detail. AG: Okay. AV: I'm going to keep asking you about the whole family. AG: Stop me, stop me whenever AV: No, that's okay. AG: I'll try to remember everything I can. AV: That's good, I'll make a note of that. AG: Okay. AV: So, the three of them come to Tampa West Tampa and they start working in the cigar factories. AG: Yes. AV: Now, when does your father come to Tampa? Gonzalo. AG: Okay. AV: More or less. AG: More or less. AV: Before World War I, for instance ? AG: I have to use some dates. He was born in 1895. So if he was 16 17 years, what is that, 1904? more or less.

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6 AV: 1 912? AG: Okay, 1912. Al l right. AV: So, he came alone? AG: He came alone. AV: And came directly to Tampa? I mean, stopped in Cuba but he knew he was coming to Tampa. AG: That is correct. Destination was Tampa AV: Right. Okay. AG: because his two brothers and his father were here. AV: So he didn't really spend time in Cuba, or anything. AG: No, not like the other. Not like my two uncles and my grandfather. No. AV: And he also went to West Tampa and the cigar factories? All of them were working there? AG: That's true. AV: Good. So, let's stop here for a minute and go to your mother's side. AG: Okay. AV: Tell me about that too. Where in Spain were they ? AG: My mother was no. AV: She wasn't from Spain? AG: No. AV: Oh, okay. AG: May I co ntinue? AV: Sure, yes. Tell me everything. AG: My mother's parents are from Sicily.

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7 AV: Oh, I see. AG: I'm ashamed, but I can't remember exactly where in Sicily I think it's Alessandria della Rocca. I'm pret ty sure, because a lot of them came from there. Now, they met here in the United States. They got married. And all their children were born here. Which means that my mother was born in Tampa. AV: I see. What is her name? Or what was her name? AG: Maria. AV: Maria. And the last name? The maiden name ? AG: Rotolo. AV: Rotolo. AG: R o t o l o. Rotolo. AV: Rotolo. Okay. What did she do? Did she work in a cigar factory, or they had other business? AG: Yes. Well. Now, o n my grandfather my maternal grandfather education wasn't the prime up there. At a very young age, she went into the cigar industry. She was in cigar. Married very young. She was, let me see, what is my mother saying. She married at 19 and I was born before she was 21. Very young. They got marri ed, they married very young. And I came very early. AV: You are the oldest son? AG: I am the oldest. There's only two of us. AV: How did your parents meet? Do you know? Do you know how your parents met? AG: That's a good question, because I was talking to my cousin about that. How did my parents meet and how did his parents meet. There's only one answer to that: in the cigar, in the cigar factories. AV: They worked in the sa m e factory? AG: They probably did in the s ame cigar factory, they met. And st uff like that. So, that's the only way. There was no other way then. They were, you know. Activity was very limited and, so it had to be that way. AV: Was it common for Spaniards to marry out of the Spanish community?

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8 AG: Ah! AV: How easy was that? AG : I recall that it wasn't very easy. They made it very hard for my mother. But, anyway they AV: Your mother's family ? AG: Yes. AV: didn't approve of her marrying a Spaniard? AG: No, they. At first. Yes. Marry a Spaniard. Why marry a Spaniard when they have all the Italians over here? But love must have been blind. But they got married. And I remember hearing many times what a blessing that was, that she married my father. May I brag about my father? AV: Sure, feel free to. AG: Because, like I previously said, education now, they came from a poor country, and farmers and stuff so education was out. Being that my daddy could get a letter and translate it into English, Spanish, or Italian, they said M y God, what is this? What is this man? So that's where he, and my grandparents were in the grocery business. They didn't make a good success of it, but that's what they would my grandparents didn't go into the cigar industry. Both kids their children did, but they didn't. So, because of my father's ability to communicate he could read English but he could not communicate. Could not speak the English don't know why. But he could read and write Italian, and all three languages. AV: I see. So they liked him. AG: Yes, oh yes. He was a big asse t to them later o n in life. AV: I see. Okay, so now the grandfather and the three sons are here. And then eventually your grandfather decided to go back to Spain and the three sons remained? AG: Very very short time upon my father coming down here, very short time, he returned back to Spain, to be with his wife and his daughter, and one son. AV: I see. So the three brothers stayed here in Tampa. Did they live together, or did, they got married and d o you know? AG: I guess. In West Tampa there was a boarding house, or a house, where you worked in the factory and you lived there. The three lived together for a while, yes. The oldest

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9 one got married. Vicente, and the other two brothers remained living in this boarding house, whatever it was. AV: What was the factory they worked at? AG: I've no idea. AV: You don't know? Okay. I thought, maybe it was AG: I wish I could, at that time, but I can't remember. I don't know. But, it definitely was in the c igar industry. AV: Okay, tell me your memories some of your memories about your childhood? Growing up here in Tampa, what do you remember most? Good memories, bad memories? AG: Well, you wa n t me to start the day I was born? AV: Yes, what comes to mind w hen you think of your childhood? What are the things that ? AG: My childhood was a very, very good childhood. My mother and my father and there's only two of us I'm the oldest one and my sister, Jenny. Her real name is Juanita. AV: Juanita. AG: But Jenny; she goes under Jenny. It was a very, very happy childhood AV: Where were you born? AG: Tampa. AV: What year? AG: Oh. 1922. AV: Nineteen twenty two [1922] AG: March the 22nd. AV: Okay. Where did you go to school? AG: To school? I went to you mean from day one all the way to AV: Yes, when you were a kid. The first school.

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10 AG: Okay. I started, the elementary school was Orange Grove. Then I went to George Washington Junior High. Then I went to Hillsborough High School. Then, much later i n life, I graduated from the University of Tampa. Much later. Do you want to know why? AV: Yes, if you want to tell me, sure. AG: Okay. Later because in '42 I volunteered in the Navy. I served almost four years. Then when I came out we had I was still s ingle we had the G.I. Bill of Right. And I took advantage of it because my father, my father always taught me that education was prime. So I took advantage and with the G.I. Bill, I went to Tampa U. And my first year in Tampa U. I got married. And my secon d year at Tampa U. my first child was born. And I graduated from Tampa U. in '49. AV: What degree did you get? What did you study? AG: Business administration minor in accounting. AV: I see. Okay. Going back to your childhood, what do you remember of the Depression? Because you grew up in the '30s. What are the memories? AG: I remember I guess I was fortunate, because o f my father and my grandfather o n my mother's side, gardens in the back, vegetables and stuff like that. And my father's brother having a cow. I can ne v er I've heard a lot of people say that they went to bed hungry. I can't say that. I, really and truly, again that's why I say I was very fortunate. Somehow, my parents and my grandparents managed for us to I mean it wasn't no steaks or nothing like that, but we didn't go hungry. I remember that. I r emember watching our pennies. Being very careful. Wherever we can make a dime, we used to shi ne shoes, whatever it is, sel l magazines or paper like that. I remember that. I remember both of my parents struggled very hard in the cigar industry. Things weren't going very good. Maybe both of them if they had a good week, they would probably bring in both of them twelve dollar s. Maybe. But my childhood, again, I will stress it, it was a very happy one. Fortunately I didn't go hungry. I know a lot of them did, but fortunately we didn't go that way. AV: I see. How about the clubs? Did your parents belong to the clubs? AG: Whic h clubs? AV: The social clubs here. The Latin clubs? AG: Did I go ? AV: Were they involved in the clubs? Were they members of the clubs? AG: My father was a very old member of el Centro Asturiano Yes. And naturally where

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11 my father went, my mother went. But then my father they started a new health like in, today they call it HMOs, La Fraternidad. And my father was very active in La Fraternidad. So was my uncle Vicente. My father never did enjoy having to work in the cigar industry. AV: Why not? AG: He just didn't like it. My uncle liked it because he was at an entirely different thing in there. I have a feeling my father never told me it was a little bit degrading to work in the cigar factory w hen he was an educated man. AV: I see. AG: A young man at the time. I'm bragging? yes, yes, okay. Fine. I'm proud, I'm proud of my family. So, something came up at La Fraternidad that they needed somebody to run the thing. Mi padre dice "I can do it." You don't know this, you don't know He said, "How do you know? How do you know that I don't know?" So they tried him out, and lo and behold he became the secr etary and treasurer of La Fratern idad. And he was there until he died. AV: Now, this health, was this like a health plan and insurance kind of thing? AG: Yes. AV: What was the difference between belonging to La Fraternidad and belonging to any of the clubs in terms of health services? AG: There was no difference. No diffe rence because, I tell you what, there was the different. El Centro Asturiano and Centro Espa – ol were the only clubs that had a hospital. Now La Fraternidad and the Cuban Club and La Uni — n Italiana, they didn't have that. But they worked close with the exis ting hospital. La Fraternidad was very close to Centro Asturiano. So the patients, the hospital was Centro Asturiano. Doctors were probably Centro Asturiano or they had the s ame doctors. That was the only difference. It's just the manner of running the business, where you worked, who you had to see, was the same thing. AV: Was the same thing. AG: Ten’ an la misma we call it dietas have you heard that? AV: Yes. AG: If you weren't able to work, you got so much per day. You were policed. If you were ho me sick, somebody would check up o n you AV: Yes, make sure that you were

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12 AG: That's correct. So, that' s the only difference. La Fratern idad wasn't as big as Centro Asturiano, no. But the benefits and everything was the same. I don't know what the cost was, what the different why La Frate rn idad was br ought up, I have no idea. AV: Yes. That's interesting. AG: Just somebody changed everything in there. AV: Now your mother, was she a member of the Italian Club? Was she involved with the Italian Club, or ? AG: No, no no no. AV: she joined the Centro Asturiano also? AG: She was mor e involved in the Centro Asturia no, and more, La Fraternidad. Wherever my father went, my mother So, yes. I was more; I have a lot of Italian friends and stuff like that. But again, in the young thing, I had more friends, Spaniards, than anything else. Culture wise and stuff like that, I had both of them. Italian and but more Spaniard. AV: Did you speak Italian at home? AG: Oh yes. AV: Did your mother speak Spanish? Did they use English? I mean how did you manage? AG: Yes, yes. Yes yes. My mother spoke English: My mo ther was not an educated woman beautiful person, but she couldn't read or write. My father had to do all of that for her. Now. Let me say this, Ana. I would be talking to my mother in Italian, carrying o n the same conversation I di dn't realize it until late I tu rn around to my father, I mean, I start talking to him in Spanish. I don't know why. But tha t' s the way it was. So, was both language spoke at home? Yes. AV: So you grew up really learning both of them? AG: Yes yes. Because my grandparents o n my mother's side lived next door to us. When my mother and my father were working in the cigar industr y, my grandmother used to take c are all the whole flock. I mean there were a lot. Cousins and stuff like that. So yes, I learn ed both languages. AV: And when did you learn English then, when you went to school, or you had picked up some in the neighborho od?

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13 AG: No, no. I started school with not a word of English, and come crying home every day, I didn't want to go back to school. My father says, "Y ou will go back to school. I learned English at school. AV: I see. AG: Yes. There was no English spoken i n the neighborhood or nothing like that. No. It was hard for us. But we bit the bullet and I comment [comic?], that came, the other thing, yes. AV: Okay. What do you remember happening in Tampa in the 1930s? What are some of the things in terms of events, social events, political events, what AG: Social? AV: sticks in your mind? Just pick one or two like big events that you think that kind of made an impression an you. AG: The thing, a while ago when you said the '30 s, was the way that, we had a lot of crime. We had some, and you can't what they would call the Mafia. My family, I'm proud to say, was not involved in the Mafia. But I remember th a t, I remember a few killings, and that. And I remember, they used to have these picnics. And I remember tha t people used to go there, they didn't have nothing but there was a lot of fun. A lot of music, Spanish music, Italian music whatever else, but it was a lot of fun. They had no radios they had radios, but who had, who could afford a radio? Who could affo rd a telephone? And I rem ember, out of nothing, a lot of fun. And I do remember there was a lot of visiting done. From my house to your house, friends. A lot of that going there. And I can remember going down the street with my father. My father before he became secretario of La Fraternidad, he was the collector. Well, the weekly, and I remember walking down the sidewalks with him and there was a particular family please don't ask me the family name, because I can't remember but you don't know what I looked forward to. It was the summer, to go to thi s house, in the porch. Entren! And get a lemonade drink. Oh, that was the thing! I remember that very distinctly. I also remember going down the sidewalk; if I wasn't paying attention, people were always sitting i n the porch. And if I, Buenas, que tal ? or something like that. One time I overlooked that; we kep t o n going. Say, S e llega el Asturiano y me dice " D—nde aprendiste eso?" I said Q u Ž qu Ž P apa? " No saludaste a la gente ." Bueno, se me olvid — ." "Go back and apologize." "Papa," I remember that. What I'm trying to say is, discipline was there. There was a lot of crime, a lot of different things going on. But, as a rule, we obeyed the father and the mother. Discipline was there. I remember that. What else? AV: Yes, other big events for the community, or, you know, in the cigar industry? Anything at all? Some political events, some elections, or some ?

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14 AG: Some elections? AV: Yes. AG: Well, for some reason we weren't too involved. Why? I don't know now, Ana. But my family wasn't too involved in politics or anything like that. Let me say this. I will say this because it is so. My father might not have been involved in too many things, but he w as aware of a lot of things. So we didn't have we had the time, but we didn't have the money to get in too many things. No, my family was never involved in politics. I can't recall there, nothing like that. But I'm sure that my family, I have to say when my father he was very aware. And so was Vicente, the oldest one. They were very aware of what was going on. B ut involvement? No. Now, later o n in '36, now we are talking about a different they did, they were involved in the AV: With the war. AG: conflict of Spain, yes. AV: Okay. Yes, let's talk about that. How did your family become involved in this conflict, I mean what do you remember of their involvement there? AG: What I can remember is, my family was involved; they were in the Loyalists. AV: The Loyalists; supporters? AG: They weren't wi th Franco. AV: The Loyalists were the Republican supporters. AG: The Republican. They were very for that. That I remember. AV: How did you first learn about the war in Spain? If you remember. Do you remember how you first became aware? AG: I became aware of the Civil War in Spain I have to be very frank with you when I heard that Pepe was leaving. AV: Pepe, your uncle Jose? AG: Jose. AV: Your father told you "Pepe is leaving"? AG: Pepe. Yes. Jose is Pepe.

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15 AV: Right, right. AG: So I said, "Pap a, qu Ž se va pa Chicago?" No, se va pa Espa – a "What's he gonna do in Spain?" "There's a conflict in Spain. Civil War in Spain." That's when I lea rn ed abou t that. Then later on, they learn ed that the youngest brother was also involved, but with Franco. Why with Franco? Because he served under Franco. So naturally he went with his commander. Pepe got my eyes opened when I heard that he left the United States to go to Spain and fight in the C ivil War. Were we active? Y es. My parents were, yes. AV: Okay. Let's talk about Pepe now. AG: Okay. AV: Where was he when he was in Tampa at the time that he decided to go to Spain? AG: Yes. AV: Were you close to him? I mean, what can you tell me about Pepe, his personality, his life? AG: I'll tell you one thing about Pepe. I was a kid, okay? I remember Pepe working in a cigar factory he was a bachelor. Never married. He lived, at that time he lived with his oldest brother, Vicente, and he was working in the cigar factory. This I remember. Fridays, when he got paid, I made sure that I was at my uncle's Vicente's house, because Pepe would come around and give all the Granells nephews a quarter. So that, I remember Pepe. AV: Very generous. AG: Very generous, very generous. I rem ember Pepe then. And I also remember Pepe sitting down, at a table, he had a table of his own. Piles and piles of paper; escribiendo una novela. AV: Oh, he was writing a novel? AG: He never finished it I remember that And I remember all three brothers sitting down, discussing different things, and Pepe would say, I'm gonna use my fifth intelligence with this conversation!" AV: That's funny. AG: And they would get, oh they would get mad. I remember Pepe that way. B eing generous. Being a bachelor. Writing a lot of stuff I never knew what the subject was or what it was I was too young for that. He n ever did finish the novel. And I rem ember, all of a sudden, I don't know how he got it, but he wanted to go back to Spain

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16 AV: To Spain. Now, was he involved in politics here in any way? I mean with the unions maybe? Was he active in any way that you can remember? AG: No. No, no no. Pepe was a very to me he was a very centered man. I never remember him going out with a woman. He wasn't gay, don't get me wrong, he wasn't gay. I know that. But he was a, un espa – ol No, he was never involved in anything like that now, in Chicago I don't know. AV: Because he lived in Chicago for a few years? AG: Oh, he lived in Chicago for a long time. AV: I see. AG: What he did in Chicago, I'm sorry Ana, I cannot answer you. He did something, but I really don't know. He wasn't in the cigar industry, I know that. But what he did I don't know. AV: Okay. AG: So, I have no other than that. AV: So, your father tell s you that Pepe is leaving, and he leaves right away ? I mean, when was that, in '37 he was leaving. I think we have the article. AG: Wel l AV: He left with, '37, with a whole bunch of people from Tampa? AG: He left. Yes, they AV: Do you remember him actually leaving? I mean the day he left? AG: No, no no no. And, Ana, I wanna say this. For some reason, I'm trying to figure this out or something like that, we didn't hear of the Lincoln Brigade until after they got there. For some reason, I think it was held pretty secretive, for some reason or other. And then I learned, when he was in Spain, that the first time I remember the Lincoln Br igade of hearing that word, that my uncle was in the Lincoln Brigade. He had gone to New York. Joined whatever was there, and went overseas. Now what I u nderstand that I thought that they had gone into the Mediterranean and th en to Barcelona. But they said N o, no no no no. This is a hearsay, okay? They went into France, in the Northern part of France, into Spain. Little bit, trickle, little bit at a t ime. Do you have any documents o n that? AV: Yes.

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17 AG: Have you heard that that's the way it was? AV: Ye s. AG: Okay. So, I' m pretty straight o n the tracking there. I think what you were trying to ask me, was he involved in any communist party, or something like that AV: Yes, well yes. AG: No. Not that I know AV: Anything that would give a hint that well, now that this thing is happening in Spain AG: No, no. Not to that, communist or anarchist. I never heard that being said in my family. Now, I remember being said a lot of the high elite, the manufacturers, the cigar, abusive and stuff like that, which I'm gonna tell you something in a little while But other than, being in the communist or any party like that, no no no no. They were very proud to be from Spain, but they were very proud to be from the Republic. So, nothing like that, nothing like that. Now, going back to the abuse of manufacturer s. Out at a certain cigar factory I' ll name it Arango y Arango, somewhere down the line, very far down the line, they were related to my father. So they were working my uncle Vicente, my father, my mother, an d Vicente had a daughter, Maria. She was, I thin k she was an apprentice then. Those four people, those four persons, all of a sudden got fired. AV: Oh really? AG: And they found out it was because they were AV: Related ? AG: from a different party. AV: Oh, I see. Had they done anything? I mean AG: What they've done is because they had a brother that left here and went to Spain to fight. AV: So that was right after your uncle decided to AG: My uncle was already in Spain. AV: Right, so that was the cause? That your uncle had AG: Well, you p ut two and two together, and they came to that conclusion. And again, my uncle and my father would not make any declaration or anything like that, but I'm

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18 pretty, pretty sure, that's what happened. AV: I see. Was t hat common, do you thi nk? A lot of people got fired when they ? AG: I think so. I don't recall any other c ases, but I've heard a lot of th at going on, yes. And if it was that, they would make it very miserable. But they didn't make it miserable for my family. They just fired them! AV: Yes. AG: They just AV: So what did they do? They just tried to find a job in other, or, did they protest in any way, I mean, was there any way of ? AG: Oh, no no no no. They wouldn't know. You couldn't AV: Tell me, yes. AG: No, you couldn't. There was n o such thing as going to get your lawyer and your, or discriminating at all. AV: But how about other people within the cigar factory, would they, they could kind of organize, or ? AG: They couldn't do anything. They couldn't do anything because the union was there the cigar industry was there, the union was there. It did a lot of good but unfortunately, they weren't very strong. The y weren't very strong. And, if I recall, the union at one time was very strong but too many strikes, this and tha t, and a couple of big factories just pulled out. They left Tampa. So, when that happens Ana, you're in timidated. You're "Hey, wait a m inute, let's be very careful; it's only four people involv ed, it's only six people involved over there So, no, nothing could be done. Nothing was done. So, what happened, they went somewhere else to work. How l ong ? I don't know. AV: Yes. So, tell me a little bit more about this conflict between the people who supported the Republic and the people who didn't? AG: You kno w, Ana. There was a lot of, I want to use this word, animosity. But I cannot recall, one case, only one c ase I can recall, and you have it documented. But other than that, I don't remember people fighting or using abusive languages or something like that. I'm sure there was, but I was not exposed to them. Okay? Now, there was another conflict, with two men, two neighbors got in a real hot argument and they both well, one killed another, and then committed suicide You have that documented. But that's all I can remember.

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19 AV: Do you remember when that actually happened? AG: Oh yes. AV: Yes? AG: This killing and suicide? AV: Yes. AG: Oh yes. AV: And what do you remember of that ? AG: I remember that they were neighbors. They were always in conflict, always finding some difference, always butting heads together. And, all of a sudden, I say, one of them must have just flipped. And he's the one that killed. And he turn ed around and committed suicide. That's for a fact. I remember that. AV: Yes. Do you remember how people here reacted to that, to the news of that happening? AG: People, if I recall, people were saddened. Because, not only did this man did this, but then he realized what he did and he did his own se l f. But he left, two families were left without a father or a husband. And, t here was no overjoy of, "E h mat— a Ž ste No. If anything, I recall, there was a lot of sorrow. Now, family wise, were t hey bitter against each other? I would have to say yes. But it wasn't, the general public, if I recall, I may be wrong, but there was no animosity that they were glad this happened, and this. No, I don't recall that at all. AV: Okay. So were you getting any news from your uncle while he was there fighting in Spain? Letters, or ? How did you keep informed? AG: Did my uncle and my father receive ? AV: Yes. AG: Ana, I would say yes. I am pretty sure that there was some, very little correspondence. But there must have been some correspon dence. Where is it at? I don't know. There was correspondence you brought it up to me. Like I told you, I said, it opened up a big avenue for our family over here, and we greatly appreciate it. But, I am pretty sure that there was some communication betwee n the brothers. Spain and how, how did he manage? I don't know. AV: I mean, you don't remember, growing up during the war, and maybe your parents

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20 talking about what Pepe's doing or, "I got a letter from Pepe," or "Pepe was in that battle; I wonder how he did." Is that ? AG: No. No, that I. No, and that's a shame, because I'm pretty sure Ana, that there was something said. And again. Tell me how my father brought me up. Because my father was always saying to me Side A ends; side B begins AV: Okay, so, your father always told you that he was also your best friend? AG: Not only was he my father, but he was always my friend. What he meant by that, he made it very clear: any problem I mean whatever problem you come to me first. Because I am your best friend, and we will solve it. I re member that. And I passed that o n to my kids, my three sons. That I remember. So, with that, if there was any communication, I'm sure that it was said while I was there, but I didn't retai n it. Was anything hidd en from us about Pepe? No. Can I prove what they said, what was involved? I'm sorry. I forgot. AV: But, for instance, do you remember reading in La Gaceta like sometimes they would have these articles about him. Was that something that you kind of knew that your uncle was there, and ? AG: No. I knew he was there, I knew he was fighting. AV: Did that affect you in any way, I mean, did people know that you were the nephew of this brigadista ? AG: What about it? AV: Did that affect you, growing up, in any way? T hat people AG: No, no Ana, no. It didn't affect me because I had two uncles out there, fighting against each other. I only knew one. But I also knew that the other was the youngest brother of my father. And that was enough. That was enough to know; that I loved both of them. I respected both of them. So no. I also knew that they, I had aunts. They were married. And their husbands were fighting against their brother in laws. No animosity. Did it affect me? Did any ? No. No Because I didn't meet anybody that would come up to me or say anything. I d on't know what, any bad thing, I w ouldn't stand for it. But did I take advantage of it, or something? No. No, because it was, there were two brothers fighting against each other. Why would I be proud against Pepe when I knew that Oscar was out there, and I would have the sa m e love for him. So it was a now, talking to you, that is, I'm pretty sure, that's why my uncles were never too freely telling me. Because my brother's over here telling us this; I don't know what my other brother's doing.

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21 So that, they were in a big turmoil. A big conflict. Two brother s fighting against each other. I did not, having this conversation with you, probably that's why some of this didn't stay with me. And I think that's the whole thing. The whole thing. And I do remember that my two, my father and my uncle, they had it bad. Knowing that two brothers were against each other. And brother in laws again st each other. AV: Now, when you, you were fourteen at that time? AG: Fourteen, fifteen, at the most. AV: You were already aware that your uncles are fighting. AG: Well, I AV: How did you understand the war? What was this war about for you? AG: Yo u wan t me to tell you what I understood about that ? AV: Yes. As far as you can remember when you were fourteen years old? Now you probably see it in a different way. AG: Yes, well I can remember this. That the k ing was out. The Republic came in. There was a conflict. They wanted their k ing back. They went to Franco, because he was the pro bably the largest, the biggest g eneral then, in experience in Morocco and stuff like that, ho ping that they would bring the m onarchy back, or the r oyalty back. And, which didn't happen. Franco stayed there. And I also remember this about the Civil War. That, okay? That I remember nothing to do with my family but the war. My uncle and my father. That Spain was used as a proving ground for Ger many and Italy. Their air force, their tanks, their tactics. That I remember. AV: You remember that. AG: And I remember the atrocity of the German bombing. Madrid and stuff like that. That I recall time and time again. That that was used, Spain was used as a proving ground for Germany and Italy. AV: Was that something that was in the news here in Tampa? AG: Oh yes. I'm pretty sure it was. If I was fourteen, fifteen, and I knew about it, I'm sure that ev erybody else knew about it. And I also heard can't prove it that this Madrid, this open city bombing, was mostly German. They were testing their stukas, dive bombers. That's what I understand. AV: Now, how about the reaction of the people here? Why do you think the people were so supportive here of the Sp anish Republic?

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22 AG: You know that's a good question. Which is true. Which is true. I would say because we had more poor people here in Tampa than well although I understand that there were some well to do p eople, but I think it was kept o n the hush hush that they were supportive of the Loyalists. My thought, train of thought is: number one, is because they were very, they were poor. What was happening in Spain, it was about time to make a change. They made the change, and all of a sudden, said N o, we wan t the aristocrat back. So, being that here they were all workers and struggling, and that's why they were, the percentage was a heck of a lot. For the Loyalists. There were some Franco people here. But I never saw, Ana, I never saw a big demonstration, a b ig fight, or nothing like that. Two different groups there. I'm sure there were. But I don't remember, or hearing about it or anything like that. So. My reason why, my thought, train of thought, why there were more Loyalists here, because they were tired of what went o n in Spain. AV: I see. Now, how about this Popular Front? This organization that was organized here to support Spain? The Republic in Spain, the Frente Popular? AG: All those drives? AV: What do you remember of some of the events they organized? AG: Ana, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I will be very frank with you. I don't ever remember participating o n anything. And then, then they turn around and these girls say, "Sure, you were there!" I don't remember. AV: Yes, Do you remember picnics, for instance, at La Columna? AG: Oh yes! AV: Okay. What can you tell me about that? AG: Well the, now, I remember AV: The picnics, like this picnic we have here in this picture; do you remember something like that? AG: No, I don't remember anything like that. Was this at a picnic? AV: Yes. That was at a picnic in La Columna. And all these children are dressed up as milicianos and they used to sing the songs, and you never participated in that? AG: No, Ana. No, no. AV: Okay. AG: I don't remember

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23 AV: You remember the speakers? Anyone, all these speakers would come to Centro Asturiano, and talk? AG: No. No, no. I don't remember that, Ana. Again, I don't remember, I probably didn't participate in it. But I guarantee you that my parents, my two unc les my father and my uncle did. But I can't give you no material o n that. But picnics? Picnics I do remember. Oh yes I remember the picnics. I remember, but I can't recall none of this. AV: What do you recall of the picnics? AG: Remember what you s aid about social life? AV: Uh huh ? AG: I remember where, a lot of, we used to have a lot of fun. Parents. It was a picnic. The food was either cooked there or was catered in, and something like that. The older people would love to dance, and us kids would j ust be running in the country, wild. I remember that. And I also remember this now you're bringing something up I remember one time, I can't even remember the club. You had, your parents had to be from, Espa –oles, and we put o n a dance at one of the picnic s. Now you see, now you're bringing up an avenue there. But it was a folk dance. Okay? AV: La danza monta – esa ? Somebody else mentioned that to me. It was a picnic of the Loyal Knights of America? AG: Loyal Knights of America! AV: And there was this danza monta – esa with sticks or something, with your arms raised ? AG: Okay, and we used to okay, al l right. We, if you want to call it that, you call it that. AV: Yes, I don't know, I'm just saying AG: I remember that. I remember that, and I remembe r having a crush o n one of the girl s that I met there. But that fel l right away. Okay, La Monta – esa is some maybe that's what it was. AV: I don't know. AG: And we used to participate, something like that. But other than that, we didn't have no uniforms. We had some kind of a costume but it wasn't AV: Do y ou remember singing any of the s ongs? This No Pasar‡ n! or anything like that?

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24 AG: Bueno, yo me acuerdo de eso: "Y a Madrid No Pasar‡ n!" Yo me acuerdo de eso. AV: That was one of their AG: But I don't remember, don't you dare ask me to sing it because Si, yo me acuerdo de eso "Y a Madrid No Pasar‡ n!" Did we sing that? I don't remember. AV: How about demonstrations. Do you remember the demonstrations? There were some demonstrations. AG: No. There were some, I'm sure but I don't remember. Ana, I'm sorry, did I participate? I don't remember. AV: Okay. How about your parents' participation, I mean what do you remember of them, what did they do in terms of helping the Republic? Do you remember them doing anything? AG: My parents AV: In what ways did they help that you remember? AG: my parents, when it came to demonstrations, or something like that, I don't re member them participating. But I can not believe that they did not. They had to. But I can't remember. I remember them struggling to save a quarter or a dime or something like that, to the donation of whatever. Especially the ambulance. AV: You remember the ambulances? AG: Yes. Oh yes. AV: What do you remember of that? AG: Like. I was never, participated, but I remember the, there was a girl, several girls there, but one of them was Aida del Valle 1 I remember she coming by the house t o collect, going to different places to collect. Som e weeks we could give her a dim e or a quarter, some weeks we couldn't. I remember that. I don't remember me doing it; I'm sure I didn't do it. AV: Right. Now, let me ask you something. Growing up in a ma rriage between Italian and Spaniard, was there any conflict between Italians and Spaniards? Because Mussolini was supporting Franco in Spain. Was there any debate about that? AG: Oh, I'm sure there was. I'm sure there was. But demonstrations? I don't reca ll anything like that. A lot of my friends knew that I was part Italian. Nothing was said against me about that. Why? Because maybe my uncle was there, I don't know. I don't 1 Aida Azpeitia, nŽe del Valle, was also interviewed for this project.

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25 know. But there was no. I don't recall anything like that. Sure that there was. I'm sure that there was. But again now, people here in Tampa were a bigger percentage Sicilian. From the island of Sicily, not Italy. Maybe that has something to do with it. Sicily was looked down. T he Italians a ll looked down o n Sicily. So, maybe that's why we didn't see any big demonstration against the Italian. Maybe up north, New York, something like that. But here in Tampa, I don't recall. AV: So, there weren't, I mean, do you remember the react ion of the other communities? Like the Italians or the Cubans towards this situation in Spain? Was the response of the community hom ogeneous, would you say? In term s of support to the Republic, or ? AG: I can tell you this. At that time, about '36 or '37, like my mother and father they allowed our intermarriages already. So, there were a lot of Italians that were supportive of the Loyalists. AV: The Loyalists? AG: Yes. And Cubans, much to my surprise, they were not with Franco. Maybe some were, but mostl y were Loyalists. AV: Why did that surprise you? AG: Why? No, it did not surprise me. AV: Oh, it didn't surprise you. AG: No, it didn't surprise me. No. Cuba, first chance that they had, they got out of Spain. And naturally that means that they had no love for the royalties out there. But they were very supportive of the because also, the Spaniard people and the Italian people were very supportive of the Cuban, when Marti AV: During the Cuban w ar for i ndependence. AG: was there, yes, went there, Now, and a lot of Spaniards, although the war was against Spain, they were supportive of them. I remember different things said about that and there was no Spaniards and Cubans fighting, and street brawls and, no, I don't remember that. Now, animosity agai nst Italians living here because Mussolini was involved? No. AV: I see. AG: No. I don't remember anything like that. And like I previously s aid, a lot of people knew that I was part Italian. Nothing was said. AV: Okay. How about the Americans, I mean th e Anglo Saxon; were they involved here in any way or, what is your feeling of, you know, what they thought about the war in

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26 Spain? AG: No. My thought, at that age, they cared less. This was a war that they had nothing to do they were out there, this is im migrants that came down here, and it was rough for awhile, an immigrant down here. You know, we were looked down a little bit and stuff like that. But we out came them. So, the Anglo Saxons here weren't, they were indifferent, okay? They cared less. Althou gh I understand that we had, a lot of Anglo Saxons volunteered and went with the Lincoln Brigade and fought in Spain. But here in Tampa, no. AV: No? AG: Nothing was, I don't really remember any broadcast, or any news. The only news was the atrocity of th e bombing of Madrid, or something like that. But, to my knowledge, to start with, we couldn't afford a subscription to the Tribune or the Times okay? But, that's irrelevant be cause los lectores en las f‡ bricas they would tell the whole public what was go ing on. Which they got rid of the lectores later o n because the manufacturers didn't like the workers learning what's going o n around the world. So, going back to the Anglo Saxon, they were very indifferent. I do remember this, also again, you're opening another avenue United States let the Loyalists down on, some, they were expecting some kind of a deal, or ammunition, or something like that and it didn't go through. That was the camel that broke, that was the AV: Straw? AG: that broke the camel's b ack. Without that, Loyalists they had no chance after that. It was a useless battle after that. I remember that. AV: Yes. Do you remember how people here responded to that, the neutrality of the United States? AG: People here weren't too happy, were disappointed. But what could they do? What could they do? Nothing. You know here's something. A lot of Spaniard boys, a lot of Latin boys, got killed. My uncle was one of them, t hat's o n my mother's side. But when Wo rld War II came out, I don't remember my father saying, "No, no, you can't fight for the United States because this is what they did to me." No. No. They loved Spain. But, they knew that this was their country. So. AV: Your parents were citizens, or beca me citizens la t er ? AG: My father became citizen. AV: When? Do you remember? During the war, or ? AG: My father became a citizen no, no, after the war.

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27 AV: After World War II ? AG: Yes. AV: And your mother well your mother had been born already in Tampa? Your mother was already born in Tampa. AG: That's a good subject. My mother was a n, she was born here. Upon marrying my father, she left her citizenship. AV: Oh, right. AG: People don't believe me. AV: Yes. AG: No listen she was born here. She married my father, she lost her citizenship. AV: Because she was married to a foreigner, right? AG : When World War II broke out, I said, Papa, quiero ir para la Marina ." He didn't say, No, no puedes ." He says, S on, you gotta go; one way or the other you gotta go. You wanna go into the Navy? God bless you." My two cousins went, my uncle went. My uncle got killed in Germany. So there was no what the United States did for some reason AV: It didn't have any releva nce to that. I see. AG: Strange, but, that's the way it was. And unfortunately, the guy, the person that's my way of thinking the person that stopped it, was a very prominent person and a very he did a lot for the poor people was Delano Roosevelt. And he's the one that I understand put a stop to this, to that ammunition whatever it was. So to answer your question, how did my folks, and other folks feel towards the United States? Were they intimidated? I don't think so. It's just that it happened, it hap pened. Hey, let's keep an with our lives. AV: I see. So, when the war was over AG: Civil War. AV: Yes, the civil war in Spain, when it ended, and Franco won AG: Yes. AV: did people here more or less stopped helping?

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28 AG: No They weren't AV: Wh at happened? I mean AG: Well they were very, very sad. Very disappointed. T hey were very disappointed. But they didn't stop loving Spain. AV: Right. AG: No, they were still AV: But did they stop the collections, and, you know, sending things to Spain? I mean what happened to the Popular Front and to all these committees and all these things? AG: I don't know. That's a good question. What happened? And I would say they just disbanded. AV: You think so? AG: I no. That's what I would think. That's a good question. I wonder. Do you have anything o n that? Okay, al l right. No, Ana, I don't rememb er. AV: You don't remember anything. AG: I don't remember. I don't remember. I do remember, much later after the Civil War, things in Spain being very very bad. I do remember my father and my uncle getting some clothes, something like that, and sending them to their family in Spain. AV: I see. AG: Upon after World War II, me coming back and my cousin coming back he was in the A r m y, I was in the Navy. All my uniforms, all his uniforms, pea coat, overcoat, all of that was sent to Spain. Because we didn't need it over here. I remember that. And I remember my, which a lot, a lot of my friends in the service, when they came they did the same thing. So, Ana. What guarantee did they have that they would go to where they for some reason they did. Whatever my father and my uncle sent, it went to their family. And Franco was there. Now let me say this; I mean let's be very frank about this. They despised Franco for a long time. For a long time. But a f ter a while how l ong I don't know they discovered that, hey, this man, he's a dictator, yes. But he's done some good for Spain. And when he was able to keep Spain out of World War II how he managed, I don't know but he was able. After awhile AV: They thought that was a good thing?

PAGE 30

29 AG: Well they, good thing, or he 's there. Okay, he's there. And the way I understand it, he did some dam n very good things. AV: Do you remember when he died in '75? I mean were people here kind of was there any reaction o r was ready to move on? AG: There was no, I don't think it was any bad reaction or anything like that. Just the news. The news that he died. The news that he was sick. And, this and that. Didn't he bring in the royals, one of the royals? AV: Yes. AG: He brought it in? AG: And, if I recall, that was kind of accepted? Because, it was a very limite d, the way he came in, the way I understand. The news was here, but the reaction of, here wasn't, que se alegraran that he was dead, no I don't recall that. The man died and he died; that's all. AV: I see. Now, what happened to Pepe, then? AG: Pepe, that's a good question, and a good, I have that, I learn ed that a little while back. Pepe was a POW for 18 months. In on e of your articles there, I learned we learn ed that he was a POW for 18 months. AV: He was in Spain all those months? AG: In Spain. He was there, but my oldest Vicente, his oldest brother, got news that he was missing in action, and they didn't know whe ther it was a German bomb or a n Italian bomb that killed him. But in the, but it then turned out he was a prisoner of war. He served 18 months. Oscar managed to go to this, it must have been a disarrayed, disorganized camp or something, he managed to go there it was after the war, now get his brother, get him out of there, and hide him some place in Pravia. Because if his brother would not have done that, they would have killed Pepe. Pepe was a loud mouth, was a very outspoken, well, there it is, very outspoken le dieron palo But he wouldn't stop. He was a very, devoted for his cause. That's how he got out of prison. Oscar, until things were better in there. And I guess later on, con los golpes he was injured. He died and he's buried in Spain. And I'm pretty sure he's buried in Pravia. AV: So when did he die? I mean AG: What year? AV: Ho w soon after the whole event took place? After the war. AG: Pepe didn't live, after the Civil War Pepe didn't live I don't think he lived five,

PAGE 31

30 maybe seven years. AV: So in the '40s maybe. In the '40s he died, something like that? AG: In the '40s. AV: And he stayed then with your family there in Asturias with Oscar, and ? AG: Oh yes. Yes. AV: So they stayed together? AG: They, yes. They stayed together. Because they had in Asturias there was his brother Oscar, and two sisters, two sisters there in Pravia. AV: Right. AG: One in Gij— n y una o dos en Madrid. It was a big family. He stayed, yes, but he stayed in Asturias. The way I understand it, he stayed in Asturias. And he died there. And they buried him someplace in Pravia. Which, they have a family plot, most likely was his, where he's at. AV: I see. Do you know anything about what he did for a living there in Spain in these last years? AG: No, what? AV: What did he do for a living? I wonder, maybe it was difficult for him to find employment AG: It was very difficult, yes it was difficult. Pepe was not. Work wasn't for Pepe. AV: Did he write, maybe? That must have been difficult also to write for AG: Well, he probably wrote, but did they do anything, or was he making any money? I cannot answer you that. I think mostly that Pepe, how he survived was because of his sister and his brother. AV: Yes. Okay. Since your uncle had been a volunteer, I mean was there any contact between your family and the families of othe r volunteers who left Tampa to f ight in Spain, do you remember? AG: Was there any communication? AV: Yes. To see where, have y ou got a letter from your son? O r because many people from Tampa fought in Spain

PAGE 32

31 AG: There were quite a few. Quite a few. AV: I was just wondering whether you knew about them AG: Yes. Again. Ana, again, I don't recall. My father, my uncle saying Fulano recibi — noticias." I don't remember that. I just don't. I'm sure there was. And something was said, but I don't recall. AV: Okay. How about radio? Did you have a radio at home? AG: No. I didn't have a radio at home, but somebody in the family had a radio, and noticias AV: Did you listen to the noticias ? AG: No. AV: No? AG: No. I was more interested in going out to the park to play. AV: Okay. AG: That's, that's the way it is. AV: It makes sense. AG: That's the way it is. That's the way it is. My father, I'm coming t o the conclusion now that my unc le and my father, it was bad enough for them, to get kids involved. La miseria and something like that. But how they managed they also knew "L ook, this is what's going on." How deep, they didn't go very deep. Because, that's the way it is. But w ere we awa re of what was going o n in Spain? Yes. Now these little communication, stuff like that? No. AV: Yes. Okay. How about the Church. The Catholic Church and the Latin community here. What do you think about it? AG: Well. The Catholic Church here in Tampa was very very, not liked. Not liked at all. AV: Why not? AG: Well, the involvement that they had in the Civil War. The Catholic Church. The involvement in Spain. We hear a lot of things, that churches were used for army, snipes, a lot of, just hearsay, that's all it was. To answer your question, no the Catholics here, it was not liked at all.

PAGE 33

32 AV: Were there conflicts between the Catholic Church and the Latin co mmunity who supported ? AG: I don't recall no conflicts. I don't recall no stones, no nothing, tearing up the church no, I don't recall any of that. I don't recall people being beat up or slained, or something like that, they would continue going to churc h. Now, I say this. My father was his father was a devout Catholic. I was brought up as a Catholic. I don't and I'm sure that there were some Catholic people who obviously, they would go to church. And I don 't rem ember anyone saying no, no, that they were told not to go. I don't recall that. Were they bitter against the Catholic? Yes. Any demonstration? I don't recall. AV: I see. AG: I'm not saying that there wasn't any, but I don't recall. AV: Okay, befo re we c onclude this interview, I would like to ask you a couple of questions. When you look back from today to these events about the Spanish Civil War, what would you say was the impact that the war had an your life? If any impact. AG: The impact that it had o n me? Well, I learned. The impact. I learned that civil war is hell. I can, that's one word that, I can't describe it any better than that. I couldn't understand why two families, fighting against each other. And the impact was how could a nation bomb an o pen city and get away with it? That's the impact I got; one of the impact I got. And also the impact was the proving ground of using Spain Germany and Italy especially Germany. That's the only impact I got. AV: Did it shape your life in any other way, wou ld you say? AG: No. AV: Not really. AG: No. It didn't. I have no Germans in but it didn't stop me from not being interested in what Italy was doing and what they're not doing. Because, whether you, it's still some of those genes are from up there. When it came to me. It didn't stop me from, well what are they doing, and why is he, Mussolini, invading Ethiopia. No, it didn't stop me from thinking that way. Germany, I never cared, for something like that. AV: Okay. Before we conclude the interview, I wo uld like to ask you also is there anything else you would like to add, or some aspect that yo u think we should have touched o n that maybe we didn't, or some information y ou wan t to make sure that is included, that maybe I didn't ask you about, or ? AG: Well. This is. I've always been very very interested in history. I guess I took after my father. These are things that, later on, I've made some notes here, you saw that. I

PAGE 34

33 would like t o ask different people, and if I find more ammunition I use that word ammunition a lot yes, I'm pursuing it more and more. You have started something! I'm telling you, Ana. So does that answer your question? AV: Yes. AG: Am I gonna stop here tonight, today? No, I will continue what's going on. Like I previously said, we are gonna get in touch with the husband of a cousin the only cousin I got to know because she came down here in Pravia, and ask them more about what happened. Can yo u talk to us? Can you elaborate an something like that? Where is Pepe buried? Y Oscar? Oscar happens to be his father in law. AV: Right. AG: To the person we're gonna talk to. So, yes. Then, we didn't communicate with Madrid. Don't ask me why. I have thr ee cousins in Madrid. But con Victor, that's the guy in Madrid, in Pravia, he's a well, he's in the banking business. He's a well, he's an intelligent man. We're gonna ask him, Victor, dime, por favor Get this information for me. I'll call you back later. And maybe we don't want him just because he was married to my cousin my cousin is dead; I want him to be he's still part of the family. I want to know more about my family. And I will get some, he loves the history also. Am I gonna continue pursuing this history of the Civil War? Yes. Is that an answer that you are looking for? AV: Yes. I was just AG: Sometimes I get carried away. Okay. AV: No, is there anything else that you may be some information that you wan t to make sure, some comment or some last thought that you have that you would like to have included in this recording? AG: Included? No. AV: In this interview. AG: No, no. But af ter this interview, if I run across some information, I will tell you about it. AV: Sure. AG: You might have the information. But, I'm gonna tell you anyway. Yes. All right? AV: Okay. Anything else you w an t to add? AG: No, no.

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34 AV: Okay. This concludes the interview with Mr. Anthony Granell. And I want to thank you Tony very much for par ticipating in this project. And I hope that you get more information about your family. AG: By all means. AV: Information we can use also in this project. Thank you very much. End of interview


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