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Orr, Mark Taylor.
h [electronic resource] / interviewed by Dr. David B. Austell, Jr.
Tampa, Fla. :
University of South Florida Tampa Library,
1 sound file (45 min.) :
digital, MPEG4 file +
e 1 transcript (digital, PDF file)
Carlton-Anthony Tampa oral history project
Interview conducted on July 17, 1998.
Mode of access: World Wide Web
p Original version:
n VHS videocassette.
Dr. Mark Orr discusses his role as the Coordinator of International Studies and Programs at the University of South Florida, and the history of international affairs and international educational exchange at USF.
Orr, Mark Taylor.
University of South Florida.
Austell, David B.,
University of South Florida Libraries.
Florida Studies Center.
Oral History Program.
University of South Florida.
University of South Florida.
Resource Center for Florida History and Politics.
Oral History Program.
y USF ONLINE ACCESS
C O P Y R I G H T N O T I C E T h i s O r a l H i s t o r y i s c o p y r i g h t e d b y t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a L i b r a r i e s O r a l H i s t o r y P r o g r a m o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d o f T r u s t e e s o f t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a C o p y r i g h t 2 0 0 7 U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a A l l r i g h t s r e s e r v e d T h i s o r a l h i s t o r y m a y b e u s e d f o r r e s e a r c h i n s t r u c t i o n a n d p r i v a t e s t u d y u n d e r t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e F a i r U s e F a i r U s e i s a p r o v i s i o n o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o p y r i g h t L a w ( U n i t e d S t a t e s C o d e T i t l e 1 7 s e c t i o n 1 0 7 ) w h i c h a l l o w s l i m i t e d u s e o f c o p y r i g h t e d m a t e r i a l s u n d e r c e r t a i n c o n d i t i o n s F a i r U s e l i m i t s t h e a m o u n t o f m a t e r i a l t h a t m a y b e u s e d F o r a l l o t h e r p e r m i s s i o n s a n d r e q u e s t s c o n t a c t t h e U N I V E R S I T Y O F S O U T H F L O R I D A L I B R A R I E S O R A L H I S T O R Y P R O G R A M a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f S o u t h F l o r i d a 4 2 0 2 E F o w l e r A v e n u e L I B 1 2 2 T a m p a F L 3 3 6 2 0
Interview with: Dr. Mark T. Orr Interviewed by: Dr. David B. Austell, Jr. Location: Tampa, Florida Date: July 17, 1998 Transcribed by: N/A Audit Edited by: N/A Final Edit by: N/A A:=Dr. Davis B. Austell, Jr. O:=Dr. Mark T. Orr A: Good morning. My name is Dr. David Austell, and I'm director of International Student and Scholar Services here at the University of South Florida. We're here today as a part of the University of South Florida, Tampa Campus, Library Oral History Project. It's my great delight today to be with you, and to have our special guest, Dr. Mark Orr, with us. The purpose of our discussion this morning is to really get at something of the history of international affairs at the University of South Florida, and especially that which is related to international educational exchange here at USF. I'm delighted to introduce you to my mentor, my colleague and friend, Dr. Mark T. Orr. Mark, it's good to see you this morning, and welcome. O: Good morning. A: We're gonna have just an informal conversation about international affairs here, and I want to start by asking a question about you. Could you tell us a little bit about the nature of your work here at USF related to international affairs. O: That takes me back many years. I was brought here in 1966, with the title of Coordinator of International Studies and Programs. And so for many years, up until say, the early 1980s, I had two responsibilities: the international studies side, and the international programs side. At that time, I discontinued doing the international studies, and at the request of our then provost, Gregory O'Brien, began giving my full time to the international program side of my old title. And so, since that time my concentration has been on international exchanges, study abroad programs, enriching campus life about international affairs. But, in particular being a kind of ambassador to the community, of community interests in international affairs. And so in that side of my work, I have been closely identified with the groups in the Tampa Bay Area--well often statewide, or Southeast region, or nationally known-organizations representing the international interests of USF.
A: Now in the early days, in 1966 when you came on board at the university, your job was academic and--academically oriented--and programmatically oriented. Could you tell us a little bit about the nature of both sides of that? First the academic part. O: Well on the academic side, I was brought as an associate professor of international studies. I was asked to teach at least one course each term. And devote the rest of my time to the other activities. On the international studies side, my first mandate was to build up a curriculum, and attract a faculty, leading to a major in international studies. This of course took several years, so that the fruit of that is that we now have a permanent faculty of about ten, with some 250 majors, in international studies. At the same time I was teaching courses on U.S. foreign relations, but more particularly on my special interests; East Asia, and within East Asia, my special interest as you know has been Japan and U.S.-Japanese relations. A: The International Studies program then, is, was your program? O: Yes. A: You developed that from the very beginning. O: Yes. A: And it did not exist at all, before your arrival here? O: There was a small list of courses: topical international courses, area courses. But they hadn't been put together into a composite international studies program with its own faculty. Prior to that time, these courses had been taught by specialists out in the different departments. For example, regional interest Latin America--someone in geography taught the geography of Latin America; someone in history taught the history of Latin America. Same thing with political science and so on. A: It was dispersed... O: Dispersed. A: ...around the university. O: And they still are--specialists in the different departments. Which make up much of the strength of our program. But, in addition we have a core faculty who are
called professors of international studies, within the international studies program. And that is a component of the Department of Government and International Affairs. A: When the international studies major was developing, were other area studies also developing at the same time? Or did that come later? O: Well, they were folded in together. So they never developed along different tracks. The professors who were dealing with Latin America--some remained in their own departments. I was able to borrow them to teach courses I was introducing until the time I could attract my own faculty. At the same time, the international studies major is different from a typical major in that, in addition to the core faculty who teach courses, the major gives credit for international courses taught within other departments. And that way, we're able to utilize the skills and backgrounds of all of our faculty. A: Now, was the program designed to let students have a particular international focus, if they wanted to pursue that? Or was this a generalist concept, in the major itself? O: It was two-sided. There was an opportunity for a generalist, a international relations broadly seen. But also with the particular area courses, and then the subordinate courses I mentioned in the different departments could be pulled together with the assistance of the faculty advisor, to concentrate on a particular world region. West Europe, Asia, Latin America. A: Well, now, you said that you were brought in 1966 with the purpose of coming on board as a faculty member and designing and implementing this program. That in and of itself is a huge task. But you're also saying that there was another aspect to your work, which was the programmatic side. Can you tell us now a little bit about that part of your work? O: That was to embrace study abroad opportunities for students--assisting in setting up international exchange programs, agreements with foreign universities, membership in various kinds of international organizations, working with faculty to develop their expertise in primary or secondary interests, encouraging faculty to engage in faculty development programs to supplement their disciplinary backgrounds, things of that sort. A: It's amazing that you would have two such tasks, Mark. Because they're both so
enormous. And the question that pops into my mind is, what were programs like Study Abroad like in those days? Were there any in existence at that time? Or were you starting from the ground, developing them ex nihilo? O: Very little at the beginning. I think the first programs came from the College of Education. A: Hm. O: A young professor by the name of Bob Shannon set up a relationship with the University of San Carlos in Guatemala. And he began taking students there in the summertime. Later we worked out a similar arrangement with the University of the Americas in Mexico, Pueblo Mexico. Brilliant little town of Chulula. Those were two of the earliest programs for our students. When I arrived here the Tampa Tribune announced that we had 28 foreign students at the University of South Florida, and that we had five students go abroad heh... A: Heh heh. O: ...during the previous year. And that was the level of our international student activity at the time. A: Five students went abroad in 1966. Heh. And now how many are we sending? O: I don't know the figure, probably around 300 or so. A: Yeah, I expect so. That's changed a lot in the programs from just that one program that Dr. Shannon had... O: Yes. A: ...early on in the mid-sixties. O: That was a good program. In fact, my daughter was a senior in high school at the time, and I persuaded Dr. Shannon to take her with him to Guatemala. And she developed a very fond attitude toward Guatemala. A: Now the programs have broadened so much. O: Yes.
A: You have an entire staff... O: Yes. A: ...working on the programmatic side now. And the study abroad programs have just blossomed amazingly over those years. Let's go back again to some of the earlier years, when you were just initiating, at this time, both sides of that--the academic side and the programmatic side. Can you tell us a little bit about the particular or peculiar challenges that you might have had at that time from making the programs go, and growing them from very little in the way of beginnings. O: That's a good question. Prior to my arrival in `66, there had been an active faculty committee that called itself the Committee of International Services, or something like that. I think it had been organized by Dean Russell Cooper who is, you know, the founding dean of the liberal arts college. And had people like Charles Arnade on it, who's still here. Bob Fouson, who was chairman of geography, retired some years ago. Ed McClain from foreign languages. Adrian Cherry, also from foreign languages. They made up that committee--I think even Harris Dean, who was later to become the dean of Academic Affairs, and briefly the president of the University of South Florida was an active member of that group. They disbanded after they hired me to come. But they continued in a very close advisory capacity, as we began to develop new programs. Some of them uh, really were the originators of some of the ideas that I was able to develop later. For example, Adrian Cherry in foreign languages had appointed himself as a kind of advisor to students interested in studying abroad. And while we did not have formal programs at the time, he had collected stacks of materials of other universities which did have programs--hoping to interest the students in some kind of overseas experience. And so I was able to capitalize on that, and the next step from Dr. Cherry was to employ a student, and open up a student office that would provide that kind of advisory service. So that's very, very, that's the egg, the very beginning. A: Here at the University of South Florida, nowadays, you are the person who is looked to, in every way, regarding international affairs. And I'm wondering, 1966`67, who were the people that you looked to, to help with the development of the programmatic side and the academic side. You mentioned Harris Dean. Drs. McClain, Dr. Arnade--uh, Charles is still here--uh, Dr. Cherry. Were there other key people that you looked to, to help you in developing the programs?
O: Well of course the individual who brought me here was Dr. Russell Cooper. And he was always supportive and always available. And it was he who then began to introduce me in the community; not only the faculty community, but the community at large. For example we had an international committee made up of directors of international programs from the state campuses. He had been serving in that capacity. He brings me in and, "Now this is your job." So, he began taking step after step to provide me with the background for interacting with community leadership interested in international affairs; business, cultural, educational, and then even to the state level. So I owed a great deal to him in getting things up to speed during that time. A: In the mid-sixties, the Fulbright-Hayes Act had only been in place a few years. And Senator Fulbright's dream, to be able to import foreign students and faculty members in large numbers through the Fulbright program in an effort to show international something of American culture, American history, American society. Especially in the aftermath of the Second World War. This program really, had not been in existence very many years when you came on board at the University of South Florida. I'm wondering how you found attitudes about international affairs. Here you were the first person hired specifically for this purpose. What were the attitudes of people here in Tampa, in Florida, and especially here at the university, about international affairs? O: At that time there was not a great deal of excitement about Tampa's place in world life, about international trade, about attracting international investments, about providing daughters and sons with experiences abroad. I have one interesting anecdote to reflect something of the negativism of that time. During those early years, universities had very little authority over their own programs. They were much more tightly controlled by the Chancellor and the Board of Regents. And to initiate a study abroad program, the university had to ask for permission in Tallahassee. I recall one uncomfortable moment. I went to see our President, John Allen, with a specific program for our first formal study abroad program. He listened, politely. He said "Well, I'll certainly take this to the next meeting of the Board of Regents and ask for their approval." When he came back, he called me to his office and he said--he was always very formal--he said, "Dr. Orr," he said, "I have bad news for you." "What is the bad news, sir?" "Well they say, in the Board of Regents, that until we are confident that we are doing a hundred percent perfect job on the campus, then we can come to them about having programs in other countries."
A: Heh. O: Now that seemed to contradict my very presence in being here. A: Right. O: So I realized that there had been an initiative locally by our faculty and heh administrators taking quite a different tact from the parochial views of the then Board of Regents. A: If the beginnings were somewhat humble--parochial, as you mentioned--in the early sixties, that is not the experience of persons in Tampa today. In the late 1990s. And we have a powerful economy, booming, very internationalized here in Tampa. An extremely diverse population of people here in our community. Regarding the sophistication of the international part of that, there are many who would say that you had a great deal to do with how that developed. From the mid-1960s to the present. Especially related to the community service work that you did, and the community interaction that occurred with you kind of as the focal point. Can you tell us a little bit about that, specifically the early days of community interaction, and how that developed over the years and where we are right now with that. O: My earliest memories of community interest in international affairs--take me back to something called the Pan American Commission of the Chamber of Commerce. Which was a voluntary organization of businessmen interested in doing business with, obviously, the Latin American world. And later it was to change its name to the International Business Council, something like that. But at the time it concentrated just on our neighbors to the South. But this happened to coincide with other developments in the country. For instance, the International Education Act of 1966, which called for emphasis on international affairs in all of our universities and colleges across the country. Now that Act produced a lot of discussion, a lot of debates, a lot of learned papers were prepared. In fact I think I even have that report, which is rather thick. But it was never funded. But it served a wonderful purpose. The key words in those days were "international" and "interdisciplinary." Then they developed as you recall, phrases like "the global village," and so on. Well, the very beginnings were, I think, the real roots, in the sixties. And it happened that I arrived just at that time. So that things were beginning to change already. The Tampa business community was beginning to be more aware of its Port, and began talking about building a fine airport and there was a kind of slow groundswell. And we were able to join in with this, by encouraging faculty to take
more part in community activities and the Chamber of Commerce, in the business councils, in the different ethnic group organizations--many of which had also a business dimension as well as a cultural or educational dimension. So it was to reach out to the community through existing organization's attempt to organize new ones. For example, in my particular role, because of my interest in Japan, one of the things I wanted to do was to organize a Japan Society of the area. They, we had this in place in the early eighties, and it's still a very viable organization. But there are also many others, now. The Chinese, the Koreans, the Filipinos, the Indians, the Greeks, for example--have well organized groups of Greek Americans, Irish Americans--whoever, who are here. and they've kept alive the idea that Tampa is part of the world. And a part of the world that's not only educational and of cultural value, but good for business, so the underlying theme was often, is it good for business? A: How did the business community specifically in Tampa look to you, or look to the university, for assistance in developing international outreach, or international focus? How was that done in the early days, and how has that continued? What kind of interaction has there been, particularly with the business community here? O: Early on the College of Business was busy getting organized, establishing its courses, turning out graduates for the business world. And the early deans of business weren't strong on international business. That was to change of course, and dramatically so, in the last few years. For example, I was often representing the university in a business context when I felt that it should be someone from the College of Business. But it wasn't until later on, with the arrival of people like Dr.Benhalker, men of that caliber, that the thrust into the business community really began. And now of course they're deeply involved in the international business community. A: Yes, with the programs somewhat centralized within the College of Business under... O: Have their own international... A: ...Dr. John Hodgson's... O: ...business center. A Yeah. Under his leadership. O: Under Dr. John Hodgson.
A: Yeah. O: And the previous one, under Dr. Benhalker, and they've received several handsome grants for internationalizing the faculty. Time away, to travel or to develop new courses. So that's a real accomplishment on the part of the College of Business. A: Mark, this is so fascinating, I hate to turn away from this. But I really do want to get at something that I know is close to your heart. And that's the issue of Japan. And I thought we might want to get at this in a special way. I wonder if you could reminisce for us about your experiences in Japan, in the aftermath of the Second World War. Specifically what it was that you were doing there, and the effect that that period of your life had on your life then, and later. O: Well. That's certainly a zinger. Heh heh. I was, I'll make this as short as I can. A: Heh heh. O: I was a graduate student at the University of North Carolina when I received a letter saying please come and join us. We want you in the military. I was drafted in the Air Corps. And had advanced to the rank of major when I was invited to attend the School of Military Government at the University of Virginia. And then later to the School of International Affairs, or Civil Affairs, at the University of Michigan. The purpose of these two schools was to train officers in different fields to serve at the end of the war, when Germany was occupied and when Japan was occupied. My particular course happened to be Japan. I was trained to be part of the forces which would follow the combat troops into Japan, and re-establish law and order. To get the country working again. It then being assumed that an all-out invasion of Japan would be necessary to bring about a Japanese defeat. So I was trained to be a part of a military government team, which would follow the combat troops, mainly in--the first wave was going to be the island of Kyushu. But the Emperor surrendered, and there was to be no invasion. And instead of being assigned to these military government teams, following combat troops, many of us were assigned to the headquarters that MacArthur set up in Tokyo. And I was one of those. So that began my connection, by just the accident of the way the war was terminated. A: Tell us a little bit about that assignment in Tokyo. Specifically what were you doing there?
O: When I was invited to be a part of the military government effort, my credentials seemed to reflect that whatever I did, it should have some connection with education. I had been involved at the University of North Carolina in public education about foreign affairs. I was part of an organization working for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. And in that capacity I had attracted some attention as a young educator who was aware, or felt aware, that American people had a stake in their own foreign affairs. Therefore they should know more about it. And our outfit was to train them. So I was simply labeled International Education Officer. Although I was not much beyond a graduate student at the time. And so my assignment in Tokyo was to the education division. And the education division had been charged with MacArthur and the Allied Council, which was all the Allies who were basically setting up policy for the Occupation. But in the field of education, there would be some dramatic changes made. Because the, it was well known in this country, and worldwide, that the educational system of Japan had been treated as a tool to train the people to be loyal, subjects, willing to die for the Emperor. To support the idea of a greater East Asia co-prosperity sphere; an area which Japan was occupying and intended to maintain its control over forever. But schools had been a tool of indoctrination. So our first task in education was to-was a negative one--to turn this around. To get rid of the ultra-nationalism, ultramilitarism, and to follow the precepts of the Potsdam Declaration, and the terms of surrender which said that Japan would move toward democratization of its political system. And so we were there, by force of having won the war, to literally dictate to the Japanese government what kind of country Japan was going to be. And my role was in the office of education, which worked with the Ministry of Education, which had tight control nationally of all schools. Direct control of the public schools, and an indirect with a very strong control over the private schools. A: Now this is the Mumbusho? O: It's called the Ministry of Education and Culture. And the Japanese words is the Mumbusho. Yeah. A: Um hum. O: As relates to our history however, I'd like to use some other names. A few minutes ago I heard the name of Dr. Herbert J. Wunderlich was responsible for my being here. He and I were on the same staff in Tokyo. And it was he who asked me to come down and meet with Russell Cooper. And Russell Cooper, the dean of liberal arts, had been a consultant to my office in Tokyo. I also learned...
A: Oh heh. O: ...another one, Elliot Hardaway, who was then the director of libraries, but also later became the dean of administration, had also... A: Huh. O: ...worked in Tokyo at the same time. A: Wow. O: So they were three people who knew me from the Tokyo days, who were senior officials here at the USF. And so that provided the linkage between that connection and my presence here. A: Academic studies that have been done about historical overviews have examined your work, in Tokyo. In the aftermath of the Second World War. And your work was tremendously influential there. And the--what was the aftermath for you? In exiting Japan, coming back, re-entering the United States, completing your graduate study and then entering academe. How did the experiences that you had, which were profound and strongly impacting in Japan, how did they affect what occurred for you later? Most specifically here at the University of South Florida in informing the way that you made decisions as to how to develop a program, the programmatic side of your work--or the academic side of your work? O: Well, you have to leap forward quite a bit, from the end of my service in Tokyo in 1949 back to the University of North Carolina, finishing up the Ph.D. But then, being recalled into the military because of the Korean War. I had left the service in Tokyo as a reserve officer. Therefore, someone decided my services were needed again. And so I was called back into the Air Force, then Air Force. And my last assignment I think relates to your question. My last assignment for the Air Force was in the Pentagon, in a division called "long range plans." And in that division, I was asked to establish a relationship with eight uh, what we called then, I guess still do, "think tanks" around the country which specialize in political-military affairs. This was during the era of Secretary of Defense MacNamara. A: Um hum. O: And so, this is where my military connections and my academic interests begin to come back together. So that I visited these various institutes regularly. I was
assigned to them as visiting associates a bright, young, Air Force colonel with flight credentials, with academic credentials who would be a visiting fellow there to participate in their discussions, in their research, and in their publications. These were places like the International Studies Center at Harvard, at MIT, at Columbia, at the University of Pennsylvania, and the International Research Center in London, Ohio State, Merchon Center, Stanford Research Center in California. And this was a very exhilarating experience for me. Working with the top scholars in the country who were concerned with strategic studies, with the fate of the United States, in projecting the future, and the concerns about what would be the role of the Air Force in all of this. And this, this kind of connection made me want to get back on a campus. And so as soon as I could separate myself from that life, I began looking for an academic post. And happily found it here. A: Is there any one particular story--happening, event--during the Japan years that you, looking back now, you think had an impact on you? Or you think had the most impact in what occurred with you later on, particularly in the academic setting. O: Well, my first answer to that is a highly personal one. Because my daughter was born in Tokyo at that time. A: Oh heh heh. O: So that was the big event of my life. But in the other side that I guess, I suppose at my age I can divulge. Um, it changed my whole life in the sense that I, as a rather young officer, with no background, in depth, about education, was suddenly in a role that should have surprised everybody, heh, uh strictly as an accident of the war, an accident of the circumstances, that I would be placed in that kind of a role. And suddenly I found myself associating with the top officials of the Ministry of Education, the senior educators of the country of Japan, the President of the University of Tokyo became my most intimate friend, throughout his life. These are people I didn't know back in the United States. I was a very junior person back here. Suddenly there, I was projected to the very top. Well that has an impact on one, I must say. And I think that is probably what I would have to offer as the event, or the situation which had the most influence on me. Because I developed lifetime friendships with many Japanese. Unfortunately, because I was young then and my friends were mid-career and seniors, they mostly have passed on. But that was one of the richest experiences of my entire life. A: Your experiences in Japan, later during the Korean War, and the planning and
the think tank that you're involved in, undoubtedly would have effected your involvement with the Model United Nations, and with the desire to bring people together--particularly after having experienced the aftermath of war. Can you tell us a little bit about Model UN here, and your involvement in making that happen at USF? O: Well that's one of my favorite subjects, because again there's an overlap with a previous life. At the University of North Carolina, I participated in a Model League of Nations. A: Right. O: In those days it was the League of Nations. So we had a Model League of Nations. And then of course when the UN was formed, many of the old timers, professors, who remembered those days, began thinking about Model UN. Um, I think our first Model UN was uh 1967, maybe `68. The first Secretary General was an international student. Gazi Abalhassen. From Lebanon. Who was a very unusual personality. And he will be remembered very intimately I'm sure by Millie Singletary. He was very skillful as an organizer, very skillful as a Secretary General who could draw students into his realm. And who conducted the first two Model UN very, very successfully. So that I owe a great deal in starting the Model UN program to international students. Another active person was Patricia Echeverria, whose daughter is now in school here. And she's from Chile. And she was, I think, the first, second, president of what we call the World Affairs Council. World Affairs Council was an organization that had both international students and other students interested in international affairs. And it's the second group that organized the Model UN. And as I heard Phyllis say in a previous broadcast, these students were quite committed to this sort of activity. And this led to the fact that the World Affairs Council with the international students on the one hand and the Model UN students on the other hand did not co-exist too well heh. And so they separated into two organizations, and one became the Cultural Organization. And one became the Model UN Organization. We've had a very modest program this year. We've had some leadership problems this past year, because of illness of the principal leaders, but I think we'll be back in business next year. A: Mark, it's been my great delight to have been among the ranks of people here at the University of South Florida who have been able to sit at your feet from time to time, and talk about international affairs, dealing with issues that we have now, tapping on your wisdom and your insight, and planning for the future. And I'd like to close our time together today with just, not so much looking back, as looking
ahead. Can you tell us what you think might be the future of international education here at the University of South Florida? O: That's difficult. It's not easy to see the future. But maybe this would be more of a wish list than a predication list. Of course you're quite aware that the university, formally, has chosen Latin America and the Caribbean as the priority area for our activities. I was very pleased that this happened. In fact it made me recall that during my early years here, I kept a map on my desk of Middle America, with concentric circles, showing that many parts of the Caribbean and Latin America were closer to us than many parts of the United States. And I was reflecting Tampa as being a, at a kind of focal point for this. So it was with great pleasure that I observed the fact that we have chosen to emphasize that area. And I think that's going to lead to a B.-or B.S. in Latin American Studies, to an M.A. in Latin American Studies. Where we go from there is further down the road. At the same time we'll have more and more students from the Caribbean and Latin America. We'll have more and more study abroad opportunities in that part of the world as we strengthen our faculty and course offerings. And that sort of thing. But hopefully not to neglect other parts of the world. We're still interested in the globe. And we'll have programs involving Europe and Asia and Africa, and I think these will grow in strength. A vision for the future? Perhaps at some point bringing international studies and programs back together. A kind of School of International Studies and Programs. The Provost has already decided that my successor will have the title of Dean. And that various components on the campus which have an international emphasis will be pulled together under that kind of a deanship. I think that is something that will be happening within the next year. Beyond that, if this all works well, and we have an aggressive dean--I hope we will--then he will capitalize on what we've done thus far, and he'll point toward reuniting international studies and programs under a school by that same name or under a similar name. A: That's a powerful vision, Mark. Thank you so much for your time today. And it's good to see you again. O: I enjoyed it.