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McCarthy, JoAnn S.
h [electronic resource] /
interviewed by Mark I. Greenberg.
Tampa, Fla. :
University of South Florida Tampa Library,
1 sound file (73 min.) :
digital, MPEG4 file +
e 1 transcript (digital, PDF file)
USF 50th (2006) anniversary oral history project
Interview conducted January 23, 2003.
JoAnn McCarthy discusses her career in higher education and involvement with international programming. She is the former Dean of International Affairs at USF.
Mode of access: World Wide Web.
McCarthy, JoAnn S.
University of South Florida.
University of South Florida
International Affairs Center.
Greenberg, Mark I.
University of South Florida Libraries.
Florida Studies Center.
Oral History Program.
University of South Florida.
y USF ONLINE ACCESS
COPYRIGHT NOTICE This Oral History is copyrighted by the University of South Florida Libraries Oral History Program on behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of South Florida. Copyright, 200 8 University of South Florida. All rights, reserved. T his oral history may be used for research, instruction, and private study under the provisions of the Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of the United States Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section 107), which allows limited use of copyrighted materials under certain conditions. Fair Use limits the amount of material that may be used. For all other permissions and requests, contact the UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA LIBRARIES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at the University of South Florida, 4202 E. Fowler Avenue, LIB 122, Tampa, FL 33620.
! 1 USF Florida Studies Center Oral History Program USF 50 th History Anniversary Project Narrator: JoAnn McCarthy (M) Interviewer: Mark Greenberg (G) Current Position: Professor of Location of Interview: Tampa campus History Library Date of Interview: January 23, 2003 Transcriber: University of Florida Audit Editor: Danielle E. Riley Final Editor: Jared G. Toney Date Audit Edit Completed: June 11, 2004 TRANSCRIPTION G: This is Mark Greenberg, the director of the USF Florida Studi es Center in Special Collections. Today is January 23, 2004. I am with Dean JoAnn McCarthy. We are in the Tampa library. We are going to begin an oral history that will look at fifty years of USF history here in the Tampa Bay community. We ll look at the role of Dr. McCarthy as the dean of International Affairs. Dr. McCarthy, thank you for coming in today. I appreciate it. M: Thank you for inviting me. G: I d like to start with a few background questions. Can you tell me where you grew up and went t o school? M: I grew up in central Illinois [in] the flat plains of Illinois between Chicago and St. Louis. [I] spent my undergraduate years there and earned my master s degree there at Illinois State University. [I] left for a year to go to France. Never l ooked back. G: What were you studying as an undergraduate? M: As an undergraduate I was studying French. As a graduate as well, I got a master s degree in French language and literature.
! 2 G: What were your plans as you were working on your graduate deg ree? What did you want to do with that degree? M: That s a question often posed by parents, actually. I didn t think I wanted to teach, at least not at the K through 12 level. [I] was looking for all sorts of opportunities in business. This was [in the] late 1960s, early 1970s. That was a little bit early for women to be involved in foreign service work and international business. That s what I thought I wanted to do. I fell into a teaching position at Illinois Wesleyan University and absolutely loved it. From there on I was hooked on higher education and found my way into various aspects of international affairs through higher education. G: Did I miss a discussion about a Ph.D.? M: I did my Ph.D. at Florida State University in foreign language acquis ition. G: Was this, then, before the Wesleyan job? M: No, actually, it was after [the Wesleyan job]. G: With the master s degree you were able to teach at the college? M: That s when I knew I wanted to stay in higher education. I knew that a Ph.D. was g oing to be an absolute necessity. I started studying for a straight degree in French literature. At a certain point I decided it wasn t the literature that was really interesting me. It was the culture and the language. I moved into foreign language ac quisition and in linguistics. G: What is foreign language acquisition? M: It s the teaching of foreign language. How do you learn a foreign language? How do you develop a level of expertise in it? [It s] the methodologies of teaching languages to childre n, to adults, which are very different in many cases.
! 3 G: In which college was that offered? M: That was in the College of Education at Florida State. G: When were you there? M: I was there in the early 1970s, [from] 1972 to 1975. G: You had done some teac hing at Wesleyan. How long were you at Wesleyan before you decided to [get a] Ph.D.? M: Just two years. G: It came to you quickly that more education was going to help? M: Right. G: Where did you go from Florida State? M: From Florida State I went back to Illinois State. At the time my husband was finishing his doctorate at the same time. His first job offer came back at that the institution from which we had both graduated from our master s degree. We ended up right back in central Illinois once again. G: What were you doing there? What did they hire you to do? M: At that time, I was engaging in starting a family. I held a number of part time positions. It was not the time for me to pursue a tenure track position. I held a number of part time posi tions in bilingual education and global education within the College of Education for several years. [I held these] until there was this opening for the director of International Studies and Programs. I applied for that and I was fortunate enough to get t hat job. It was a beautiful fit in terms of psyche and skills and interests and abilities. I really enjoyed it. G: This was, of course, the position still at Illinois State?
! 4 M: Yes. G: Tell me about that position and the kinds of things that you did the re. The reason I ask is, were there things that you were doing at Illinois State or lessons that you learned, skills that you developed, that became important as you made the transition to Tampa and USF? G: It was a very, let s say fair environment in whi ch I was allowed to really determine what kinds of things the institution would pursue in an effort to break out of a very parochial environment. I knew that study abroad had changed my life. I had grown up in that environment. I had never been on an ai rplane until I was on my way to France. I disembarked from that airplane into a whole new world. That world was more or less constrained by the end of the Vietnam War. It was a very difficult time in terms of politics here in the United States as well as in France. This was in the late 1960s. I was there for defining moment s in the higher education. It s quickly spread across the Atlantic. All the young rust on our campuses was mirroring what had happened the year before when I was in France. G: That brought down to what the De Gaul le government? M: Yes, and what it was doing was energizing people not only against the war but against guns and empowering large numbers of people to speak out. That became the kind of mo dus operands for the next few years I remember sitting in church every Sunday in Paris behind Henry Cabot Lodge who was there during the peace negotiations. It was a very real environment of political power [and] of interpretation of the media. I think that was the year that I became ve ry politicized. That was the year that I began to realize that you couldn t trust everything that you read printed in the paper. That was the year that I
! 5 realized that you could not trust everything the president told you to be true. It may take twenty years for the truth to come out, but there s a spin factor in virtually anyone s representation of what is happening in very much a cultural context. I had a lot of experiences in France in which I was, almost on a daily basis, grilled and quizzed and cha llenged on my political beliefs because of Lyndon Johnson s [president of the United States from 1963 1969] actions or inactions at Vietnam. I realized how unprepared I was. If there was one thing the French taught me it was critical thinking. I learned not to take it personally. I think that s something that more Americans probably need to develop, is a passion for questioning, a propensity to doubt, and to not be threatened by a question. At first I didn t like this very much. I felt very threatened by this constant growing. G: You were a junior at the time? M: I was a twenty year old. G: These were other students your age? M: Yes, [they were] my age. G: In Europe, politics is the national sport. I have not been used to real debate of issues. We d have [a] very superficial understanding of politics. That year in France was a very volatile social and political time. [It] was one in which I realized how little I knew, how much I trusted, blindly, and it also helped me realize just because one ques tioned didn t mean that you were being disrespected or that you were being somehow attacked. There was nothing they liked better than for me to make a case positively. I thought it was a real growth experience for me. It changed my world view. It helped me see questions from other people s points of view. I went to school with people from all over the world,
! 6 not just France. North African perspectives, Turkish perspectives, German perspectives [all] helped me, for want of a better phrase, broaden my ho rizons. [It] certainly helped me to identify with other parts [of the world] and be able to accept them as legitimate. It was a turning point for me. It was a turning point for everyone I ve ever known who has done this degree, other than the American Ex press tour. People who really invest themselves in an immersion experience always seem to come home changed. G: Off camera I ll tell you about the year I spent in Israel. I was a sophomore. What you say rings true. You were a junior? M: Yes. G: Coming back from that, did it shape the decisions for the master s degree and Ph.D.? M: No, actually, economic times shaped my decision. I came back and I had a real hard time re assimilating my senior year back in that very parochial environment where literally I was the only person I knew that had ever been overseas in any other capacity than military. I had a hard time. After everybody heard my stories once they didn t really want to hear them again. I had a hard time finding people with whom I could ident ify. It was a long senior year. It was spent applying to graduate schools in [Washington] D.C. for foreign service type graduate programs which were outside my economic ability to really get involved in full time. I was also looking for jobs that might immediately send me overseas which I didn t realize at the time rarely happens. That s still true. My main goal in life was to get back overseas. I applied to the Peace Corps. I actually ran an ad in International Herald Tribune for work as an au pa ir Eventually, I did go back as an au pair for a year. I spent that year in Paris with quite a wealthy family with one ten year old child. That has certainly charged me with all kinds of stories or regal cocktail
! 7 parties. It was not a particularly pro fessional experience, but it did teach me a few things about how the international business world works and the fact that virtually every country prepares students better for a goal workforce than the U.S. does. We re way behind the curve on that. Mainly it s the language issue and cultural perspectives issues. I came back. This was not a career I was involved in. [I] went back to school to buy a little bit more time. [I] got a master s degree because I was offered a graduate assistantship, a teaching a ssistantship. [I] fell into these teaching jobs at the college and realized that s what I really wanted to do, was stay in higher education. I was hoping that I could teach. Maybe teach French and maybe something in the education field. I knew that it w as going to have an international build to it. I set about creating environments in which I could [say], okay, I ll do what you re hiring me to do, but I m going to do it with an international spin. Eventually, an opportunity came open that was just perf ect. G: How long did you stay as, were you the dean of International Affairs? M: It was executive director position. G: How long did you stay? M: That started in 1983 and ran until 1992. G: Were there some accomplishments there that stand out in your mi nd? M: I think one of the most exciting things was the project that we took on. It was a twist on a student exchange program only it was with an organization called the Foreign Languages Bureau of Beijing. They printed all of the English propaganda, the Beijing Review China Reconstructs all of these foreign language publications that go out to the rest of the world to form the face of China. We had an exchange with them to take two of their editors for a two year stint where they took courses in Americ an politics and history and
! 8 English. They polished their English and they were much more informed to go back and create these publications. We were very close to a lot of these editors. One or two of them defected and stayed. They were in the media; th ey were in the news. This experience really opened their eyes to what the differences were between the two countries. Of course, back in the 1980s, China was just opening up. I was part of a program that we called Faculty Development Program in China. What we did was take those two editors to ISU and calculated what it would cost to support them. The cost of that was divided by twelve to determine a budget that I had to bring in as income to keep those people there. For that price, we offered an out b ound experience for our faculty at ISU to spend a month in China. It went on for nine years while I was there. It still goes on today, I think. This group of twelve faculty members focusing on technology or focusing on the arts or focusing on the educat ion or focusing on politics, would go over and have a custom design trip for three and a half weeks. We always enter Hong Kong. You would visit things like film studios or the new stock exchange or classrooms and get a professional perspective on the fie ld. Over a period of years while I was there over a hundred ISU faculty members sprung off to China. It changed the base of the university. It really did. It started getting incorporated Asian perspectives into the course work. New courses were added. Majors were added. The number of Chinese students on our campus skyrocketed. It was a real effective way, and I ve believed ever since, that if you re going to internationalize a university, you have to start with the faculty. That was a very exciting project that I really enjoyed. G: Anything else before we move you to USF? M: That s where I got my feet wet on designing study abroad programs, too. Frankly, there s
! 9 no school, there s no graduate program, there s no way to learn that except on a job tr ade. I cut my teeth on that at Illinois State. G: Besides your administrative functions? Were you still teaching? Did you have any other duties besides the executive director? M: I didn t after I took over full time. This was a huge undertaking because it was a very undeveloped entity. At that point, that s when I really ceased teaching full time. I only ventured into the classroom sporadically thereafter and slipped on a number of doctorate dissertation committees, but primarily my job was administra tive. G: In 1993 you were still at Illinois State? M: In 1992 I went to Old Dominion University. G: You were there for how long? M: I was there until 1999 when I came here. [I was] there for seven years at Old Dominion. That was a different experience a ll together. It was a very similar type of institution. There were a lot of programs that dealt with the military and with the resident NATO command that was in Norfolk. We had a lot of emphasis on NATO and Europe that fed into that job. Then I came he re. G: How did you hear about the position at USF? Tell me a little bit about the transition from Old Dominion to USF. M: I wasn t looking for a job. I didn t even know about this opening until about five days before the search was closing. I got a phone call from my former colleague at Illinois State, Catherine Batch, who was here on political science. She called me up and she said, why didn t you apply for this job down here. We have a deanship open. Why don t you apply for it? My first reacti on was, why would I do that? It sounded like just what I was
! 10 doing up there and I was very happy. It s a different title. I had no clue what USF was. I knew that Catherine was here, but I knew nothing about USF. She said, look at their website and cal l me back. I started poking around the website and said, wow, this is a big place. There s a lot of things that are very different about this. I said, well, it couldn t hurt. I sent in my cv, and my application letter and I thought that was probably th e last I heard about it. A couple weeks later I was moving stuff into a moving van and on my way down to USF. G: Tell me what the initial reaction was. You applied. First, was there anything specifically about the website? Your initial thoughts about w hy coming here might be a positive experience. Were there things that were going on at this campus that excited you as you were looking for the very first time at us? M: The difference was the size of the institution [and] the fact that it was an urban in stitution. That has so many pros and cons. It certainly is the wave of the future, I think, metropolitan universities. Thirdly, it had a med school and a public health school, which is a dimension that I had not dealt with before. Fourth, there were pe ople here that were working in fields from international development. I had, for many years, longed to get more heavily involved and was not in an institution that was really structured to pursue those aspects of applying research to the bar award. G: [ Did] you come down for an interview? M: Yes. G: What did you think of the campus as you were interviewing? M: I was surprised at how flat it was and how widely dispersed all the buildings were. You have to get a little history about USF. The other thing that I knew, like everyone else, I
! 11 couldn t understand how it got named. The University of South Florida. You d expect to find it in Miami. I moved into the state continuously instructing people about not getting off the plane [laughing]. G: I can answe r your question, and I ll tell you. M: I guess I came from more traditional campuses in Virginia. I expected older buildings with a little more sense of history. Even for a state it seems to have a more historic presence about it. That was one of the do wnsides to me. I m a visual person. I like that environment. However, I wasn t here for very long before what really swung the balance was the impression that I had that USF was breaking the molds. My biggest frustration with higher education has been what we call the silos of the disciplines. My interests have always been many disciplines. I have never, even back in my days where I was doing graduate work, I didn t want to be confined to French literature. I wanted to know everything there was to kn ow about the French and how it all interrelated. To be confined to literature, maybe identify one author to become the world s greatest expert, I just didn t want to be confined by that. Maybe as a testimony to my superficialism I found here, a very welc oming environment for crossing disciplines. It wasn t perfect, and it s still hard to break out of. We re just designed [that way] and all the reward systems; reward the disciplines. When you want to talk about things like the environment or hunger or c onflict resolution or health issues, these are economic issues, these are political issues, they re social issues, they re historic issues. You can t treat them in any more recourse in any discipline. Those are the ones that I find the most compelling. The ones that I find interesting and most relevant to the world today. I saw people working across disciplines. I saw interdisciplinary centers. People weren t being
! 12 penalized for that. At least not to any great extent that would keep you from doing it Back at least on the surfaces, the people were really being encouraged to do this. I found it very refreshing and exciting. The more I poked and prodded and asked questions I found almost everybody I talked to was involved in some way, shape, or form an interdisciplinary issue. I thought, that looks promising. The other thing about it was President Castor s [Betty Castor, USF president, 1994 1999] commitment. She d been traveling with faculty. She had been providing faculty development funding. Sh e was indeed behind the consolidation effort of centralizing this effort and making it real and making it strategic and funding it to a level that it could make a difference. I thought, well, what more would you want? I signed on. G: What was the adminis trative structure? Did international affairs exist in 1999? M: [An] international center existed, but it was primarily a study abroad program. Prior to that, Dr. Boore had been instrumental and it had a little bit more academic major feel structurall y. He was in charge of that effort. In fact, he was the man who really brought it to the forefront of USF and played such an important role in getting it established here. Dean Scruggs built the study abroad aspect of it. He really laid the groundwork for study abroad throughout the disciplines in many of the schools. It was that narrow view of what international studies [and] international affairs might be. I think if you would have asked anybody on the campus to tell them what international affairs did, they d say study abroad. Or they would have confused it with government and international affairs and said, oh, that s an undergraduate program. G: The study abroad was essentially a mostly undergraduate opportunity for USF sophomores or juniors to go someplace in the world.
! 13 M: A lot of it was short term based too. [They lasted] two [or] three weeks. G: Did any of the centers [offer] LACS [Latin American and Caribbean Studies] [or] Africana studies? M: [They did] not [offer] Africana studies but t he Center for Africa that I d asked for. [They also had] LACS, of course. LACS had been created the year before I got here. That was one of these pan university efforts to develop a level of expertise and emphasis in a neighboring region of the world. T hat s where we have a considerable amount of faculty expertise. They have been launched more or less as a part of international affairs. That was also during the time where they were co planning for this dean and this consolidation. The Institute for Bl ack Life had, at their helm, Juel Smith, who was also very interested in international things, particularly in Africa. As she started developing this kind of co program that was just using her time to create this center for Africana the Diaspora, which w as an area studies emphasis on Africa. [It was] under funded to the point of zero. She was doing it out of sheer commitment and love for that area of the world and being able to bring that out of people who were also committed. That was an on paper empha sis. G: JoAnn, let me ask you, did you have any dealing with the Y s? Were they still around? M: No. I was on campus here for six months before I even heard the word Y s mentioned. Then, Dr. Orr gave me a rather lengthy briefing on what had transpired t here. He shared with me a huge report. Even at the time, I don t think I grasped how important that was at the time it happened here, nor how important that would become in the future. There was just no way of really digesting the significance of that i mprovation. Plus, it just gave me a cold chill because I thought at the time, what if I had been here during that?
! 14 Without resources, without investigative powers of the FBI or the CIA, would I have known that this was anything other than a group of commi tted academics who were dedicated to teaching people about their part of the world? G: It raises, I think, an important issue for the whole nature of international affairs in that if there can be a center or an organization for Latin American and Caribbean studies and for Africana the Diaspora, e specially in today s world, to have some kind of an entity to study the Middle East, seems to be a perfectly reasonable enterprise for an institution. M: [It s at least reasonable], if not critical in this day and age. I think the problem with that particular situation was it was opportunistic. It was presented to the university as something that was being formulated and just wanted to link to the university as opposed to the university saying, hey, we re really d eficient on having expertise on this campus in Middle Eastern studies. We re going to dedicate a few lines to this. We re going to ask some people to fill some vacancies, in history and art and a number of other areas. The best person that they can find was academically prepared to lead this academic effort. Had it been a strategic formulation, I don t think there is any way that such an entity or event could have come to pass on campus. Really, what it says, is beware of the gift, because in many resp ects they re already formulated and configured to someone else s agenda. G: It raises an interesting question in that given what was going on and what continues to go on in the Middle East, the university didn t consider on it s own initiative that that would be an area for interdisciplinary studies. I think that you ve characterized very effectively the fact that it was born of the university but off the university as opposed to born amongst the faculty through an existing entity. Has it soured the uni versity
! 15 against....[interrupted] If we were to approach you today and say, we d like to create a middle east studies entity... M: Personally and professionally, I think it s one of the most important things we probably should be doing. I think realistica lly speaking, it is something that this particular institution probably needs a little more distance from for the time being. I think what it is we configured and it must, for a research university not to have a significant level of expertise on the histo ry, politics, society, and languages of the Middle East is something that would be very hard to justify. Given the ongoing nature of the Al Arian trial, of the people who have been hurt and embarrassed by this situation, and the level of wariness of the o ther citizens of Florida, I think that some things are just subject to timing more than anything else. That does not make up for the fact that I think it s an extraordinarily important thing to do. We ve had a number of speakers on this campus trying to bridge the gulf. Just last week we hosted the central command delegates from the Middle East to central Korea. [There were] a number of high ranking officers from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Djibouti and several other countries were here, on campus, in their fatigues, having lunch with us a week ago. It attracted a lot of attention. G: [Was it] positive [attention]? M: Just by people [who were] curious. [They were] onlookers. Maybe it was the uniforms, maybe it was the obvious middle eastern nature of the people who were in them. It was a subject of great curiosity in the Marshall Student Center. It s said to me that while these gentlemen were divided to be hosted in a warm and welcoming way, and were even talking to us about how could they get their sons and daughters admitted to USF that they ve had a pretty rough time of it here in this community. The average American does
! 16 not realize that fighting right alongside our troops over there are these troops from the Middle East. [They] were very much co mmitted to the same outcomes that we are. G: On many campuses, student demand plays a role in the course offerings and often the centers or departments or divisions to get created. Do you think that the African Diaspora or the Latin American and Caribbean Studies or with the large number of Muslim students on campus of Middle East studies entity is necessary to meet student demands? Did any of the existing divisions within international affairs come about because of student demand? M: That s a good questi on. I wasn t here for the genesis of LACS. The Center for African Diaspora was really an outgrowth of some faculty commitments to Africa. LACS, I suspect, was more an outgrowth of community demand and the number of Latino and Latin American students on this campus and just a general realization that this was our neighborhood. The poorest borders have already become very apparent when you travel around Florida. If you just hand out in the malls and listen to the languages being spoken, you know that the re is a considerable Florida interest in what happens in Latin America and what happens in Latin America has an impact on Florida. To say that the borders stop here and we re all about Florida negates the reality of the situation. That was responsive to demand. In terms of Middle Eastern studies, I think that across this country, my counterparts and I have all noticed that there is a much higher interest in the teaching of Islam, the academic course work about Islam and Islamic cultures. There s a great curiosity among our students about this. G: Right now on this campus? M: I think within the religion department, yes. Right after 9 / 11 [Terrorist attacks on the
! 17 United States, September 11, 2002] there were a number of courses offered in government and international affairs. Dr. Hashish [taught] in that department. [There] was constantly a demand as a speaker. I believe he put together some courses that spoke to that issue. We haven t had, to my knowledge, any petitioning from students that we want t o minor in or major in. However, one of the things that I am working on right now is an undergraduate certificate in what we d call a global scholars certificate. We hope to have it up and running in another year, which allows a student as an undergradua te to link to whatever degree they re getting, in journalism or nursing or teaching or whatever, a global perspective. [There are] a couple of core courses on the introduction of globalization and communicating across cultures. You ve got to know how the world works and you ve got to know how to communicate with the people in it because they re right here in Tampa. Those are the core courses everyone would have to take. Then we ask students to select their gen ed courses in such a way that they develop a n expertise for a certain part of the world. Take three courses on Latin America. [Take] Latin American art, Latin American politics, [and] Latin American history while you re doing your gen ed. Don t just take anything that s out there. Get some contin uity to it. After that, you must study abroad. You must have at least a minimal capacity in foreign language. [You must have] one course at the third year level. That will do it. Finally [you need a] capstone course. If you re research, a semester lon g simulation or an internship of an international nature. That collectively, takes a nursing student and gives them, I think, a much more critical international perspective on their chosen career and their ability to function in our increasingly borderles s world where they don t know where their patients will come from. They don t know where they will carry out their
! 18 long term professional career. They can be certain of one thing. No matter what the future holds, there are two things that are dead certa in. It will be more technology based, and it will be more global. There just is no way of turning either one of those things around. G: Are we close to seeing this in the books? M: Yes. The core courses have been written and are winding their way throu gh the approval process at this point. We are currently sending advisors on study abroad programs. This is an advising issue. This is not really a new program. Any student could have done this for the last twenty years if they had been thinking about i t. This is an advising program which advisors catch students early. They say, look, let s make sense out of this gen ed curriculum you re going to have to take anyway. Let s make sure that when you come out at the other end you have something to show fo r it. What we re doing is we re sending our advisors overseas in study abroad programs so that they can look at what they are, how they function, who they re for, how they fit into a program of study, how they re financed. More and more students need to take advantage of these opportunities. Then the other part of it is putting forth the effort. Out of the high schools, this is something that we have to get started on very quickly. Recruiting students among the International Baccalaureate programs in th e state of Florida [who are] high performing students with an international perspective already. You show them a program like global scholars and say, you can still be an engineer. You don t have to major in languages. You don t have to major in interna tional studies. You can major in anything you want, but you can have some global credentialing and some real skills and you are going to study abroad as part of this program. That is something that we find is very attractive to
! 19 high school students. The y are so much more ready than previous generations were to travel. G: Is USF on the leading edge of this? Are there models for this kind of thing elsewhere? M: There are at temp t s in other schools to varying degrees. A lot of them are happening in tradi tional four year research institutions, like the big ones or in private schools where students come in and pay $30,000 a year and study abroad looks like a cheap year off to them. It s hard to do this in a metropolitan university full of part time student s. That s been our challenge. We re part of something called the International Collaborative that the American Council in Education has put together. This is a program that was designed to encourage and develop model programs for various types of univer sities in internationalization. In fact, I m leaving tomorrow to go to the annual meeting where we do our check up and information sharing with other institutions. There s only ten research universities in this group. We re in there with the likes of Mi chigan State, Indiana University, the University of Kansas, Iowa, Buffalo and some others. Basically, what we re trying to do, is move forth where it counts. Not just more and more students from overseas and more and more students studying abroad, but re ally integrated programs that are more than the sum of the parts. [Programs] that are multidimensional and embedded in the undergraduate experience. That s the challenge. The other one, study abroad, that s usually a function of how wealthy are your stud ents and how well does it fit their particular major. On a campus full of engineering students, how do you get them to study abroad as undergraduates? That s a challenge. One that worked paired with me through engineering internships in Germany or Franc e and Mexico or Costa Rica. [The] College of Engineering has been a really wonderful strong supporters on the
! 20 global scholars issue. G: Where does the Globalization Research Center fit in? Were you part of the creation of that? M: No, actually, it was con comitant with my coming. I believe that they were writing the grant while they were interviewing perspective deans. After I arrived here, I guess the good news came down from Dr. Stam p s who was then the dean of Arts and Sciences that their big new projec t had been funded. That was the first year I was here. I got full of that, I said, that s wonderful. This is something that could really put us on the map. It s great that this university is committed to that concept of globalization and studying becau se it s a reality and that there are people, besides me, that recognize that. I thought that was a real testimony to this institution. G: Does it fit into some of your overall goals for international affairs? M: It does, in many respects. We have a strat egic plan that we put together the second year I was here. That was a five year plan which I m pleased to say, is moving along very well. Some of the tougher things in that plan to accomplish include such things as establishing cross disciplinary centers that address cross disciplinary global issues. They are the most compelling issues of our time. [They are] the issues of water and health and survival and conflict resolution. If universities aren t working on the solution, who is? Some of the globaliz ation research put together an infrastructure to foster that kind of activity and to get them out there and to enter the field providing seed money. This wasn t a lot of money, the fact that they aren t getting huge amounts of money, but it s the critical difference between doing it and not doing it. I think that over the long haul it s provided a framework for faculty to say, of course we should be doing research on a global scale.
! 21 Of course what I m doing should have global implications. We re a Resea rch I university. If a United States top tier university research extension is not engaged in the most important issues confronting the globe, who would we expect to do this? That became our job when we leapt into that echelon of universities. Finding i nfrastructures to foster them, to support faculty who want to do more of it is a real critical milestone. That GRC was one effort along those lines. The Center for Disaster Management really was a predecessor to that. The city of cross disciplines, very early, focused a lot on Latin America as well and got people in an international field between disaster management and humanitarian systems I think the new department of global health is going to be further in runs. They work very closely with our anth ropology department on cross disciplinary emphasis of their research and activities world wide. It s an important thing for a research university to do, to find structures that draw that expertise from wherever it s needed; the College of Business, Health Medicine, Arts and Sciences, Engineering, wherever the answers have to emanate from. Virtually all of those issues are interdisciplinary in nature and their solutions will be, too. G: You have several directors that report to you, and they have their o wn assignments to carry out activities in their areas. Tell me a little bit about the structure. I know of Jorge Nef of LACS. Who else is part of your team? M: David Austell, who is a nationally recognized force in international student scholar services David is an expert on immigration policies, often called upon to come in on an help shape national policies for universities on immigration as it affects universities. David has a group of international student advisors. He also works with our interna tional faculty to keep them visa eligible to work a t USF. It s really important for a research
! 22 university to draw its faculty from the best and the brightest from around the world. They have to be able to work here legally. David has worked with us to h elp them to that status so that this university can employ them. We re also involved with setting up, this year, actually, is our first year of operation for international admissions. It s under Pat L akostky, who came to us from graduate admissions. Pat and her staff are working, for the very first time, on a strategic enrollment planning mechanism for international students. When you look at top research institutions, they virtually all have 3,000 or more foreign students on their campus. They don t h ave to work very hard to get them because they have a real wide reputation that draws these students. They re often being mentored by a former graduate of that institution. They are frankly drawn into that tier name brand universities. As a relatively n ew addition to those levels of functioning as a university, we re going to work a little harder at this. We weren t set up for it. We established an Office of International Admissions that creates a student specific website. You have different questions if you re a foreign student than you have if you re a domestic student. There s a lot of people who don t even know what a three hour course is. How does that work? [They have questions about] credentials and evaluations; is that diploma the same as it would be here in the United States or is that a totally different system? People have to be trained in this very complex and hugely varying issues of higher education. We had to create that level of expertise on campus. The processing practices, the timi ng, the incentives, the services that are needed for this kind of utility effort than you would have for others. You can t just send out the view book that s designed to attract an eighteen year old U.S. citizen who was brought up within fifty miles of US F and try to attract with the same materials someone on the other side of the
! 23 world. They have a totally different agenda and trigger points in which they say, man, that s exactly what I m looking for. Some things that turn on an American student turn of f a foreign student. For example, full faculty, always at your beckon call, sitting there with their sleeves rolled up, sitting on top of a desk very informal. U.S. students think, oh, I m glad I took this class, foreign students say, I don t trust a fac ulty member who isn t formally lecturing. It s just a gut level reaction. It s an Indian concept. You have to be careful about how you portray a university. The technical stuff is really important for many, many foreign students. How fast those comput ers are and things that wouldn t occur to a lot of more humanities oriented students to ask about. These are the kinds of things that you know, you have to talk about the climate in Celsius and you have to talk about the distances in kilometers. We do ou r own thing in terms of portraying the university. The website is very different, as well. We assume that this person is a second language English. So the English is much more simplified and [there are] bullets and step by step [instructions]. [There is ] not a lot of verb i age. It s a different process all together to get more foreign students in here and to target them. Pat s office has been charged with a very strategic operation. Which departments want more foreign students? How can we shape our en tire university student profile and increase the level of competition of our students? Our going after foreign students who are very high performing. How can you shake the tuition income of the university? Do we want more graduate versus undergraduate s tudents? We can help the departments who have flagging enrollments because maybe it s just birth rates in the United States and help balance things out by a strategic international outlook. It s not easily done. It s time sensitive. Right now, what we re doing, interest in trying to recruit foreign students, we won t see
! 24 any of them until January, 2005 at the very earliest. It will probably be September of 2005 where we see the direct results of efforts here today. G: You ve got LACS, I see, all the time, public programs being offered, lectures [being offered]. There seems to be, and I relate to this as director of the Florida Studies Center, a lot of outreach, a lot of work both on and off campus in the community to educate people about particular s ubject fields whether it s foreign or Latin American Caribbean areas. M: A lot of times that will relax. G: We work all the time, actually... [interrupted] Some of the things that you ve talked about have great implications for students and the nature of our student body. In terms of the educational components and the outreach, in addition to the things that LACS is doing, are there other areas in international affairs that are really trying to do the kinds of... M: Sometimes they re a little diffuse. I ve been working with the Tampa Bay area in terms of the business and private sector and government, trying to establish and articulate a global vision for this community. It s amazing how practically twenty percent of our population being born speaking E nglish as a non native language [and] how visible these people can be when you re portraying the community in the press or even speeches. To do on a macro level what we re doing on a micro level here at the university. To get that Tampa Bay area, across St. Petersburg, Sarasota, and Clearwater, and Tampa, and surrounding areas, to see ourselves as global players. I think that the reality of this world and this time of the Internet and this flowing population across borders and the kinds of workforce issu es we re confronting, the kinds of disease issues that are becoming more and more of a threat. Certainly the economic ties that we have with Mexico and Brazil
! 25 and all of the countries in this region, it strikes me as odd that we don t have a global vision for this area. The problem, I think we ve decided amongst a small group of people who are constantly lamenting this is, a leadership vacuum. Nobody s been charged with the whole area. The Tampa Bay partnership, to some extent, has been trying to fill t hat void, but again, it doesn t override the parochial interest of the communities and the counties. Trying to find ways that can attract the attention of the entire area and say, you know, I don t care where that big, new installation is going to go, tha t s going to help the area. That s going to put us on the map. It would be great if it could be here, but hey, if it s across that border, so be it. This is going to go with the area. I could be on board to bring it here. I don t see any immediate iss ue on the horizon, right now, that is galvanizing a regional effort. However, USF is the one institution, the one entity that straddles all these areas. Nobody else does, just USF. I think we re the catalyst who are talking about these things. I think we can say, as one university with multiple campuses, that we can speak for our communities, that we can provide leadership for our collective communities. Along with Tampa Bay partnership, we might be able to leverage some serious progress on the front o f biotechnology, for example. In the area of international finance we had some enormous capacity in this area. International finance that brings trillions of dollars through Florida, through Tampa Bay every day, probably rivaling, but we don t focus on t hat. We don t capitalize on that. I think that s something that we could make our next niche claim to fame future. [We could] rival that of San Diego, Austin, and the research triangle if we were able to do that as a region. [End of side A] G: We re ba ck. [This is] Mark Greenberg again on January 23, 2004 with Dr. JoAnn
! 26 McCarthy, dean of International Affairs at the University of South Florida continuing an interview about international affairs here on campus. When we switched tapes, we were talking a little bit about the impact that USF can have in the Tampa Bay community in terms of a greater global perspective here in the area. Are there other areas where you see USF and in particular, international affairs, affecting education, affecting the econom y? M: I think we ve made great strides in the area of global health here. I think, also, in the area studies of Latin American and things of that nature, and the Center for International Business under Maria Crommett s leadership is beginning to make som e impact on our economic development in the region. With FTAA, the Free Trade Area of the Americas, the goal of Governor Bush and a lot of Floridians who see that development as a possible jump start to the Florida economy. Much like Belgium was kind of reborn under the European Union that Florida would have the same kind of benefits if we can attract FTAA here. Along with FTAA, technology needs to be satisfied. There s been talk around here about creating a Center for Technology of the Americas. I sus pect with the scripts announcement in recent months, that that may take place here in greater proximity to the Palm Beach area. Nevertheless, that is an important implication for Florida. I know that USF is somewhat involved in that scripts issue. I thi nk, also, that education is a big, big issue. This is something where I m looking a lot on the national scene, on trying to impact the global perspectives and K 12 education. The students who come to us are obviously a product of twelve years of educatio n. Many of us continue to be amazed at the lack of understanding at the rest of the world, language skills that these things bring to us as opposed to their European or Asian or even Latin American counter
! 27 parts. It s a failure of our K 12 system, but mo re importantly, it s a failure of our society to recognize the importance of knowing the rest of the world and how best to communicate and to wield the considerable power that this country has. We continue to produce students with very parochial world vie ws, stunted perceptions of how the world functions and our role in it, often inflated and a lack of appreciation for the importance of being able to speak someone else s language regardless if that person speaks English. It s a huge difference in negotiat ion and politics and any kind of understanding of the true frame of reference of your counterpart. It s a huge disadvantage that you re not even aware of because you don t speak another language and you don t even know it s there. This is the kind of thi ng that I feel is a crucial issue in American society is the internationalization of our K 12 education system. Having one of the largest c olleges of education in the southeast, one that deals daily with providing teachers who are capable of teaching chil dren who do not speak English as their native tongue. The College of Education has considerable expertise and activity of an international nature. I m hopeful that we can do something more high profile in that area and provide some national leadership on an issue that s becoming more important every day. In fact, the Department of Education has requested some issuing of new ideas on how they can internationalize K 12 education, what it would cost, how it would be actually [carried out], if we could, and of course, it s got to start with teacher education. We can t change anything that s going on in the classroom until we ve changed the mindset of the teacher and the skills and the available materials. Frankly, there are plenty of materials out there. I see them on the websites every day. There are plenty of materials, whereas lacking is the will and the commitment to change both systems of education. [They are] so fixated
! 28 on accountability and testing, I think we ve lost sight of the forest; we re coun ting trees. G: [What about] Cuba? M: Cuba, [that s] one of my favorite places. [It s] the most intriguing place in the Western Hemisphere, I think. G: Mine, too. I had a chance to go with Mike Conniff in the spring of 2002. You and I, I hope, will get a chance to spend some time about some of the things the Florida Studies Center is trying to do with Cuba. We ve got a number of projects going on. What opportunities and what challenges does it pose for international affairs? Where would you like to see international affairs of LACS positioning itself for Cuba s future? M: Well, I ve been traveling back and forth to China since 1983. I ve seen some huge, huge changes in China. They re not there yet, but I would say the quality of life for the Chinese is so incredibly improved in the last twenty years that the only thing that can explain it is their engagement with the rest of the world and the United States in particular. I see no reason why that same logic does not hold true for Cuba. I think it s a f ailed policy and I think a lot of people, Cuban exiles, are beginning to quietly agree that indeed, this is not working. It s to the detriment of friends and relatives and people who care about Cuba. I personally think that the Congressional part of the union is very much warming to the idea of dropping the embargo. I don t think it s beyond our realm of possibility that once we get through this next election if the Bush administration is still there that it would have the ability to soften their stance there, as well. It was a very well organized lobby to the contrary, but I don t think it expresses the vast majority of viewpoints on this topic. G: What would a change in U.S. policy do for USF? Are there thoughts here about the
! 29 things that we wish we c ould be doing that we re not able to do right now? [Are there] plans for the future? M: I think that one of the things that would involve USF and the local Tampa area is underdevelopment. I think that port of Tampa is ready to become the primary port to a nd from Cuba. The Miami port is at capacity. It cannot expand anymore. Given ocean currents and proximity, the next best thing is definitely Tampa. [In] Tampa, I think their port is quite well aware of that. The problem we have right now is that we re unable to do anything pro active about the planning for obvious reasons. However, I would suggest that that is a self imposed problem because of the city of Jacksonville and the city of Mobile, Alabama are engaged in very offensive proposals with the Cuba n government for the moment the restrictions are dropped to be sitting right there, ready to go with the operation in forty eight hours. That, to me, is an attitude of pushing the envelope, but on the other hand, not being constrained by perceived antiqui ty towards this kind of activity. G: With Tampa s particular historic ties to Cuba that go back well into the mid nineteenth century, are there things going on in addition to the economic? The cultural, the social, the historical, that you see expanding? M: In terms of what we re doing with Cuba? G: Yes. M: The BNL that s coming up in two years, and it s not even two years anymore, is it? We ve been planning it for a year. I think there is going to be some cultural exchange with Cuba that s going to be very high profile and very well attended and underscore what s important here and that s the relationship of people to people, not government to
! 30 government. That, to me, is the ping pong diplomacy of the Cuban situation. I look forward to thawing those relationships from the inside out. That s the way it has to be. G: I ve been asking questions, and I ll sum up with one primary question as we conclude. If you could pull out your crystal ball and look, say five years, into the future for international affairs, where would you like to see your division in five or even ten years from now? M: I would like to see us very busy, fending off the multiple requests that are coming in from around the world to ask us our expertise either by a distance education o r by deploying faculty, graduate students, etc. to work on crucial issues. I want USF to be recognized for the obvious capacity that it has to be a service to human kind and to make a serious difference in things that all will improve the quality of life for people all over globe. That will do more to enhance our recognition, our reputation, our flow of students and scholars to this institution. It will fertilize what we re doing here. It will inspire people to do more, and it will be bragging rights fo r the governor of Florida and have us one of the premier metropolitan universities in this country. When people say, where s the University of South Florida, they ll know it s in Tampa because they ll have been here and they ll know us. G: Dr. McCarthy, thank you. I really appreciate the time we spent together. M: Thank you. End of Interview