Cave Talk

Cave Talk

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Cave Talk
Series Title:
Cave Talk
Bob Holt ( suggested by )
National Cave Association
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Resource Management ( local )
serial ( sobekcm )
United States


General Note:
Cave Talk is a publication of the National Caves Association, a non-profit trade association founded in 1965 by a small group of private show cave owners. These initial members sought to bring together show cave owners and operators from across the United States to promote the show cave industry to the public, to share information and ideas, and to lobby for legislation favorable to the show cave industry.
Open Access - Permission by Publisher
Original Version:
(February 27, 1975)
General Note:
See Extended description for more information.

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University of South Florida Library
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University of South Florida
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All applicable rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
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K26-00930 ( USFLDC DOI )
k26.930 ( USFLDC Handle )
20865 ( karstportal - original NodeID )

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NCA Cave Talk NATIONAL CAVES ASSOCIATION February 27, 1975 Barbara. Munson, Coordinator. 1026 Ba.1.m:Jra.l Drive Signal Mountain, TN 37377 (615) 886-2995 MID-WINTER JANUARY 26th CAVE PROTECTION SEMINAR PARTICIPANTS ADMISSIONS AND HOURS TRAVEL AGENTS GOLF COOL CONSTRUCTION i NCA Members will be 'meeting in Miami February 29th for our' Mid-Winter Meeting. ~ Weill miss you if you are unable to be there ... NCA representatives met with representatives of the Department of Transportation in Washington on January 26th, 1976. In attendance were: Bob Hudson (MERAMEC) Rod Schaeffer (HOWE), Mark Trimble (FANTASTIC), Carl Gibson (RUBY FALLS), Jerry Cavedo (LURAY), Charles Buser (SKYLINE), Dick Bell (SENECA), and Jim Cole, attorney representing Lester B . Dill. Unfortunately illness prevented Legislative Chaixman Tom Gibson from attending. A full report of the meeting and an update of recent action will be presented at the NCA Mid-Winter Meeting. Through the efforts of LAKE SHASTA CAVERNS and others, California has recently passed a State Penal Code revision (Section 623) protecting caves and caverns in the state. Details in DOWN UNDER. The National Caves Association will be well represented on the National Attractions and Amusement Parks Seminar panels: Tom Gibson, SKYLINE CAVERNS The relationship of a national attractions association to state and federal government. Thomas A. Erwin, Jr., RUBY FALLS Successful advertising techniques for attractions. Richard C. Bell, SENECA CAVERNS Research application for a small attraction. An Admissions and Hours Addendum is enclosed. The entire issue will be reissued in the near future. U. S. travel agents helped arrange 9.6 million trips by Americans during the third quarter of 1975. These represented 16 million travelers, 125 million person-nights away from home and 32 billion person-miles on trips to places 100 miles or more away from home. (Travel agents need to know about NCA and NCA members.) D. S. Kaufman reports Pennsylvania's CRYSTAL CAVE is building a regulation 18 hole golf course scheduled to open in June. The course will be cave oriented. On February 2nd, HOWE CAVERNS experienced a wind chill factor of 62 degrees below zero. According to Donald Duncan, contractors begin work"this month on Outside INNER SPACE.


RBA-PLS 5-21-76 MODEL STATE BILL TO IMPLEMENT FEDERAL SUBSECTION 131(0) [The term "Highway conunissioner" is used in the following Model section. If some other term, such as Highway Department, conunissioner of Roads, or the like, is used in the particular State law which you seek to amend, make such modification here.] Add a new section to the State law to read as follows: "Section The Highway Conunissioner shall promptly locate and define specific areas adjacent to the Interstate and Primary Systems in which there are signs, displays and devices which were lawfully erected and in existence on May 4, 1976, and which do not conform to subsection l3l(c) of Title 23, United States Code, which signs, displays and devices provide directional information about goods and services in the interest of the traveling public and are such that their removal would work a substantial economic hardship in such defined area. "The Highway conunissioner shall proceed with dispatch to forcefully demonstrate to the United States Secretary of Transportation or his designee that such signs, displays and devices are as described above and that their removal would in fact work such a substantial economic hardship in such defined area and, based on such demonstration, shall urgently request the Secretary or his designee to permit the retention in such areas of such signs, displays and devices, and shall, in cooperation with the State's Attorney General, use his best efforts to achieve approval of such requests by the Secretary or his designee. "The Attorney General of the State shall cooperate fully with the Highway Conunissioner in acquiring approval of such retention of a maximum number of such signs, displays and devices in such defined areas to the end that any such defined area shall be protected against suffering such substantial economic hardship. The Attorney General and the Highway conunissioner shall utilize information and cooperation supplied by or available from private businesses, private business organizations, Chambers of Conunerce, and any and all other sources of such information and cooperation."


RBA-PLS 5-21-76 MODEL STATE BILL TO IMPLEMENT FEDERAL SUBSECTION l3l(q) (1) [The term "Highway Commissioner" is used in the following Model section. If some other term, such as Highway Department, commissioner of Roads, or the like, is used in the particular State law which you seek to amend, make such modification here.] Add a new section to the State law to read as follows: "Section The Highway Commissioner shall promptly develop programs which will assure that necessary directional information about facilities providing goods and services in the interest of the traveling public will continue to be available to motorists. To this end the Highway Commission shall study Section 131 of Title 23 United States Code, and particularly subsections 13l(c) and (13l(f) thereof, and make recommendations for programs thereunder which will permit the development of signs which are functional and, esthetically compatible with their surroundings. The Highway Commissioner shall forthwith transmit such information to the United States Secretary of Transportation or his designee and fully cooperate with the Secretary in implementing subsection 131 (q) (1). The Highway Commissioner shall also study means of utilizing and encouraging limited roadside commercial zoning under subsection l31(d), and take all possible steps to implement such means." RBA-PLS 5-21-76 MODEL STATE BILL TO IMPLEMENT FEDERAL SUBSECTION 131 (q) (2) [The term "Highway Commissioner". is used in the following Model section. If some other term, such as Highway Department, Commissioner of Roads, or the like, is used in the particular State law which you seek to amend, make such modification here.] Add a new section to the State law to read as follows: "Section The Highway Commissioner shall promptly, and prior to t-h-e--r-e-m-o--val of any signs, adopt a program to assure that the removal of signs, displays and devices providing necessary directional information, and which were providing directional information on June 1, 1972, about facilities in the interest of the traveling public, shall be deferred until all other nonconforming signs are removed."


RADIATION Manunoth Cave National Park Assistant Superintendent Doyle [" Kllne has outlined the steps taken there in response to the radiation problem: 1. All employees working in the cave are having their levels of exposure reduced to meet OSHA standards and some of them are being temporarily reassigned to surface work during t,he summer months when radon levels are supposed to be highest. 2. They have eliminated the exposure to radon gas ln the Visitor Center and Headquarters/Administration building by discontinuing the use of cave air to air condition these facilities. 3. A system on monitoring the radon levels in the cave has been initiated and individual employee exposures are being measured and will be controlled continuously. 4. Spu um cytology testing will be initiated for all employees performing subsurface duties. Also, the following notioe regarding smoking in the cave was distributed to all employees. "Mr. Bob Beckman informed you on April 21, 1976 of the hazards associated with smoking in an atmosphere containing radon daughter particles. "29 CFR, Part 1960, Safety and Health Provisions for Federal Employees, states that the official in charge of an establishment should have the primary responsibility for correction of unsafe or unhealthful working conditions brought to his attention by any means. It also indicates that employees shall oomply with the occupational safety and health standards and with rules, regulations, and orders which are applicable to an employee's own actions and conduct. "In order to comply with the statutory requirement outlines above, it is that we prohibit all employees from smoking within the cave, and that we urge all employees who work within the cave to stop smoking altogether. prohibition is effective immediately. necessary strongly The "We will also draft a park regulation which will prohibit visitors from smoking within the cave. This regulation will be submitted to the Regional Office for publication in the Federal Register and it will be based on the presence of the radon daughters in the cave atmosphere. Until that regulation has been approved and published, the Guides should merely ask the visitors within their tour groups to refrain from smoking until the group returns to the surface. No additional action is necessary if a visitor insists on smoking while he/she is within the cavee ll This Memorandum was dated April 23, 1976 and signed by Asst. Supt. Kline.


NATIONAL CAVES ASSOCIATION SIGN SURVEY July 1976 The information from this survey will be used by NCA Legislative Chairman Tom Gibson to compIle a composite report requested by the Department of Transportation to aid them in future deliberations. CAVE ----------------------TOTAL SIGNS Number of signs owned Number of signs leased Of this number, how many are seasonal? ______ for how many months? How many are leased year-round? ------SUPPLEMENTAL DIRECTIONAL SIGNS Of the owned and leased signs, how many are in the 150 square foot category? ----------Are these all "supplemental directional signs"? If you were putting up additional "supplemental directional signs", how many would you make 1 arger than 150 sq. ft. if there were no contro 1 s or if the controls were modified? 'Example.: One. opeJULtOJt .6;ta);e.d he. noW hM a t.oM On .6Uppleme.nta.e. cWte.c.UOna..t, a.nd t.hat. he. ne.w -two On t.hue. .6hould be. .tMg eJt t.o do t.he. job. ) ADDITIONAL COMMENTS Your response to this questionaire is important. Please return it to Tom Gibson in the enclosed envelope as soon as possible.


NATIONAL CAVES ASSOCIATION LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE Thomas H. Gibson, Chairman Skyline Caverns P,O. Box 193 Front Royal, Virginia 22630 JULY 8, 1976 TO: FLASH! Members and Officers, National Caves Association Ted Graves and I went to Washington yesterday for a meeting with Governor Norbert Tiemann, currently Federal Highway Administrator and a former Governor of Nebraska. Others in the meeting for DOT included: Lester J~b, Tiemann's deputy; Joe O'Connor, Jack Francis and Edwin Reis, counsel. Jack Studebaker accompanied Ted and me. Our request for a change in rulemaking has been denied. This appeared in the Federal Register, Vol. 41, number 130, dated July e, 1976, on pages 27739 and 27740. Of the comments received during the period when the hearing record was kept open, seven ,were opposed to any liberalization of the rules and three, including our own comments, were in favor of it. The following admissions were made by various of those present for DOT 1. The "laboratory evaluation" of signs and reading distances was not as good as a "full scale field test." (This referred to the Bureau of Standards study performed early in 1975.) 2. Some, but not a great deal of consideration was given to the fact we have to locate,'signs as "cross readers" which can easily put them a great distance from the intended viewer. It was pointed out by me that this is a major factor in some cases in some areas, and we do not feel it was given the value it deserves a special standard for "cross readers" was suggested, but the idea was not welcomed, as being overly complicated and difficult to administer 3. It was pointed out that the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1976 does call for the Secretary to make a study of ways and means of imparting directional inforrr.ation to motorists incJ~ding directional signing and that our ideas and suggestions will be welcomed as a part of this new study. We objected to this procedure, pointing out that the authority for our exemption has existed since 1965, and to throw us into the pot again with everybody else would be weakening our position and our rights as they currently exist. This fell on largely deaf ears. 4. I took the opportunity to quote excerpts from the surveys made for the Commission on Highway Beautification, which showed that collection of highway litter and elimination of junkyards along the highway both had a higher priority in the minds of the public than did signs sign removal, or sign size. It was suggested that DOT had their priorities mixed up and were devoting most of their energies to the number three priority area, so far the public is concerned. So, unless we can come up with a new tact, the sign size reamins at 150 square feet. Any bright new ideas, inclduing variations on directional sib~ing that any-body can sumbit should be forwarded to me. Tom Gibson N,~ Legislative Chairman


DISCOVER AMERICA TRAVEL ORGANIZATIONS, INC. '100 CO""o<'''", A",u. N w. w"""'o'. 0 C '0030 ,202) 293 ",., SUMMARY OF COMMENT AND ANALYSIS OF THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION'S PROPOSED ENERGY CONSERVATION CONTINGENCY PLANS Summary +t-c DISCOVER AMERICA The Energy Conservation Contingency Plans, announced by the FEA in the May 28, 1976 Federal Register, lay an unreasonable and disproportionate share of the burden of energy conservation on the nation's travel industry. The Energy Conservation Contingency Plan is a proposed set of five individual plans. Plan NO.3 is of primary concern to the travel industry; however, Plans 1, 2, and 5 also impact on travel. Impact We are concerned with Plan No.3, entitled "Emergency Weekend Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Retail Distribution Restrictions". This provision postures the travel industry as non-essential. Its immediate impact could be to close gasoline pumps to most automobiles from noon on Friday to late Sunday evening. The U.S. Travel Data Center estimates that Americans traveling by automobiles on weekend trips spent $13.2 billion in 1974, directly supporting the equivalent of 676,000 jobs which, in turn, produced $3.5 billion in wages and salaries. In addition, a significant but undetermined portion of the $4 billion spent in this country by foreign visitors also took place during weekend trips. FEA Planning FEA says 90 percent of weekend driving is discretionary. What is discretionary for one person is not for another. Weekend automobile travel accounts for approximately 20 percent of all expenditures in the $72 billiona-year U.S. travel industry. FEA was charged by Congress with developing restrictions necessary to reduce energy consumption. and to create a reasonable distribution of the burden sections of the economy". plans which impose reasonable They are required "to be fair of such restrictions on all Congress did not intend to authorize FEA to decide that certain major economic activities were non-essential, nor did Congress intend to bestow upon FEA the power to possibly eliminate thousands of jobs.


-2 Travel and Transportation If gasoline is unavailable for automobile travel away from home on weekends, the economic impact on travel will be national in scope. The bulk of the burden has been placed on the travel industry. Although transportation may account for half of total petroleum consumption, the travel industry consumes only 10 percent of petroleum fuel. Plan No. 3 Plan NO.3 is poorly designed of how or when it would be implemented. details of the program are inadequate. and ineffective. There is no explanation There is no economic data provided, and Industry has not been given adequate time to reply. This program took FEA six months to develop, and a response from private interests is expected with only three weeks preparation. Plan NO.1 The travel industry is also concerned with other contingency plans. No.1, relative to heating, cooling, lighting and hot water restrictions, does not take into account the practicality of management control of guests. Also, to insure personal security, adequate lighting is required in public areas. Plan NO.2 Plan No.2, concerning restricted parking facilities, does not resolve insurance problems currently associated with car and van pooling and may increase automobile cruising as drivers search out parking locations. Plan NO.5 Plan No.5, the restriction on illuminated advertising and certain gas lighting, is unreasonable in its application to roadside hotels, motels, filling stations, restaurants and attractions. On-premise signing is essential to their economic survival. Conclusion Plans 1, 2, and 5 would be harmful to the travel industry. Plan NO.3 would impact severely on the travel industry and the national economy. We strongly support the withdrawal of Plan NO.3 from consideration, and any words and rationale utilizing "non-essential" relative to the travel industry must be removed from these Energy Conservation Contingency Plans.


NATIONAL CAVES ASSOCIATION June 12, 1976 To: NCA MEMBERS Re: PROPOSED GASOLINE CONSERVATION AND RATIONING PLANS Action is needed NOW As stated in the June 8th Legislative Alert, hearings on the Federal Energy Administration energy conservation plans are to be held June 23rd and June 24th. Written statements must be received by June 28th. Proposal #3 would ban the sale of gas or diesel fuel to cars, boats or private aircraft between noon Fridays and midnight Sundays. Once approved by Congress, these Plans can be implimented by the President at any time. Your comments are assisting NCA Legislative Chairman Tom in representing the National Caves Association's stande also urges NCA members to write their elected officials. Gibson Torn Copies are enclosed on Chairman Gibson's June 8th letter to the FEA and of a resolution prepared for consideration by the Roadside Business Association Executive Committee. YOUR letters are needed NOW. To save postage, your June NCA Monthly Economic Impact Report cards have been included with this mailing.


Copy of Resolution prepared by Tom Gibson, at the request of Carl Gibson, for consideration by the Roadside Business Association at their meeting in Washington this week. WHEREAS The Federal Energy Administration has proposed Energy Conservation Contingency Plans as outlined in the Federal Register, Vol. 41, No. 105, under date of May 28, 1976, and WHEREAS proposal Number 3 "Emergency Weekend Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Retail Distribution Restrictions" carries implications of not only business disruption, but absolutely fatal business disruption for many sectors of the travel industry, particularly those located in rural areas, far from the public bus systems, and WHEREAS the wholesale death of businesses in the travel industry would impact heavily on the national gross travel product of $72 Billion, and WHEREAS the travel industry nationally and it's back up and supply organizations employs four million or more persons, the failure of many travel businesses would result in tremendous increases in unemployment with attendant increases in unemployment compensation costs and widespread increased welfare costs to governments, and WHEREAS all facets of the travel industry are responsible for business activity which results in large payment of taxes to all levels of government, through motor vehicle fuel taxes, sales taxes, business taxes, income taxes on both business and employees, license taxes and excise taxes, with the failure of many businesses in the travel field, this cash flow to government will stop, thus resulting in serious increases in the public debt, and WHEREAS in some States, such as Virginia, taxes paid by travelers and the businesses and persons serving them total one fourth of ALL tax dollars collected by the State, the failure of many businesses will impact immediately on all state and local jurisdictions, and WHEREAS there is sure to be violent objection from the public at large to any plan which would effectively prevent weekend leisure activity travel, it appears this proposal to ban gasoline or diesel fuel sales from noon Friday to midnight Sunday would be most unpopular and it's attempted enforcement would be sure to lead .. to .. situations which developed during the Prohibition era, but instead of "speakeasies" we would have "gaseasies." NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED By the Executive Committee of the Roadside Business Association that these conservation proposals, especially number 3, be dropped from further consideration. Instead, RBA through it's Executive Committee, urges the FEA to push rapidly forward with research and incentives to the development of plants capable of producing fuels from waste products such as garbage, sawdust, etc. since this will lead to energy independence through the production of alternative fuels. It is felt this is a much more constructive, productive course than the harrassment of an industry providing happy times and pleasant memories for the American public.


NATIONAL CAVES ASSOCIATION LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE Thomas H. Gibson. Chairman Skyline Caverns P,O. Box 193 Front Royal, Virginia 22630 Box HC Executive Communications Room 3309 Federal Energy Administration Washington, D. C. 20461 Gentlemen: June 8, 1976 RE: Emergeney Weekend gas and diesel fuel retail distribution restrictions In reading the Federal Register, vol. 41, No. 105, for Friday, May 28, 1976, on page 21910, I was shocked at the proposal (3) for "emergency weekend gasoline and diesel fuel retail distribution restrictions." In your neatJ,y phrased plan, you seem totalJ,y to disresard the fact that implementation of this plan would absolutely wreck the travel industry in the U. S., plus the recreational boating industry, the private plane industry and a few others. Since I am more familiar with travel, how do you propose to keep the $72 BILLION per year industry functioning, without the all important weekend travel? It is stated that "More than 9\fJ, of weekend Vehicle miles traveled is for purposes other than earning a living etc." WRONGI Weekend travel provides approximateJ,y 20% or more of all revenues handled in the travel industry and we can't make it without that money. For a paltry savings of 100,000 barrels a day you propose to wreck an industry that grosses $72 billions, employs more than four million people ani pays enormous amounts of taxes to all levels of government? Let's have a little thought on this subjeat please because it is obvious no real thought has been (liven to it yet. In Vir(linia, over 160,000 people are employed in the travel industry more persons than are employed in all educational faailities in the statel The total Virginia travel product grossed out at 1,446 millions almost a billion and a hal!' this makes travel the second most important economic factor in the economy of the Commonwealth. Further, travelors and the people and places serving them paid a total of $382 millions in taxes to the state and it's jurisdictions about 25% of all taxes collected in Virginia in 1975 . All of the a bove information from the booklet "Travel in Virginia" prepared by Dr. Lewis C. Copeland for the Virginia State Travel Sernce. Instead of ever returning to the "non-essential driving theme" and I trust the above information shows there simpJ,y is no such animal I suggest the FEA devote far more of it's energies to seeing to it that production is started on the various systems of producing synthetic fuels from garbage and other substances. This, it is my understanding, can today produce hundreds of millions of sallons of fuel daiJ,y if some direction were forthcoming for the program.


Comment on Emergency ~eekend gas and diesel fuel retail dietribution restrictions Page two Since it ie a known fact that all petroleum supplies worldwide will be exhausted by about the year 2020, it seems tc me the cnly real course of action FEA has at this point is to encourage in every possible way the production facilities for synthetic fuels which will have to take the place of gas as we know it today. I am forwarding this copy of remarks, made in behalf cf the National Caves Association to you to be made a part of the hearing record on this ll'.atter. Since the time for public comment was so restricted, we ~ not have time to get input from our membership and prepare a more comphrehensive statement. Thank you for your attention to this matter. incerely, Thomas H. Gibson, Chainnan Legislative Committee NATIONAL CAVES ASSOCIATlOO THG:nf


NATIONAL CAVES ASSOCIATION LEG I S L A T I V E ALE R T June 8, 1976 To: NCA Members Re: PROPOSED GASOLINE CONSERVATION AND RATIONING PLANS The recently-enacted Energy Policy and Conservation Act mandated the Administration to prepare and submit to Congress for its approval energy conservation contingency plans which the President could activate to deal with a future energy emergency. Accordingly, on May 28, the Federal Energy Administration published the following two plans in the Federal Register (Vol. 41, No. 105 May 28, 1976). Each plan is approximately seven pages of very small type in length. The Conservation Plan would prohibit retail filling stations from pumping gasoline to most motor vehicles during a period which could extend from noon Friday to midnight Sunday. It would also impose restrictions on lighted advertising displays, and set restrictions on heating, cooling and hot water for non-residential buildings, including hotels and motels. The Rationing Plan, which also has imperfections as far as the travel industry is concerned, would be activated in a severe situation only if all other options for managing an energy shortage should prove inadequate. TheFEA has provided a very short time for comment on these plans before they will be submitted to Congress for approval. A National hearing will be held on the Conservation Plan on Wednesday, June 23, in Washington. A National hearing on the Rationing Plan will be held in Washington on Thursday, June 24. Regional hearings have been scheduled June 21 and 22 in Atlanta, Kansas City, San Francisco and Anchorage. (Additional information on these hearings can be found in the Federal Register.) Written statements may also be submitted and must be received at the FEA by Monday, June 28. William D. Toohey, President, Discover America Travel Organizations, Inc. (of which NCA is a member), states: "Once these two plans are approved by Congress they will stand ready to be implemented when the President deems it necessary. Our vulnerability to petroleum supply disruption grows monthly. According to the FEA, in March of this year, the United States imported for the first time more than one-half of its domestic petroleum requirements. "It is important that there be a strong, broad-based, consistent and accurate response to these FEA proposals from the travel industry. The weekend ban on gasoline sales has again been positioned by the FEA as a procedure to eliminate "non-essential energy usage". DATO is preparing testimony for the National hearings on the two plans. Support and concurrence from the major travel industry components will be needed. Our National Caves Association Legislative Committee Chairman Tom Gibson needs your comments at once so that he and our Legislative Committee can accurately represent the NCA. Please address your comments directly to: Thomas H. Gibson, Chairman National Caves Association Legislative Committee SKYLINE CAVERNS P. O. Box 193 Front Royal, Virginia 22630

Cave Talk is a publication of the National Caves
Association, a non-profit trade association founded in 1965
by a small group of private show cave owners. These initial
members sought to bring together show cave owners and
operators from across the United States to promote the show
cave industry to the public, to share information and ideas,
and to lobby for legislation favorable to the show cave


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